Body Shots On Elephant (Does Caliber Really Matter?)

[Tanks]

@TOBY458 Can't go wrong with CEB solids, I have taken multiple elephants with them.

 

[rookhawk]

@TOBY458 Can't go wrong with CEB solids, I have taken multiple elephants with them.

Call me old school. Whether its to ensure they feed, fire, and don't damage my doubles, or just because they are proven, I like Woodleigh Weldcores. Pretty similar copies with great reputations include Hornady DGX and Federal Trophy Bonded Solids.

 

[Mark Audino]

An interesting question - here is what I can share about it. I took a 70X70 bull in Botswana with a body shot. The bulls in Botswana are notoriously big in body size and bigger than the ele in other parts of Africa that I have seen. That proved to be the case with my bull. The situation did not present a brain shot opportunity. I was using a .450 Rigby Rimless Mag. The marketing literature for the cartridge, recently announced at that time, offered insights directly from Paul Roberts heading up Rigby. He specifically stated that the cartridge was designed for body shots on elephant for modern day elephant hunting. To see his quoted words in the context of the great .416 Rigby being a proven do-all cartridge spoke to me.

 

[IvW]

An interesting question - here is what I can share about it. I took a 70X70 bull in Botswana with a body shot. The bulls in Botswana are notoriously big in body size and bigger than the ele in other parts of Africa that I have seen. That proved to be the case with my bull. The situation did not present a brain shot opportunity. I was using a .450 Rigby Rimless Mag. The marketing literature for the cartridge, recently announced at that time, offered insights directly from Paul Roberts heading up Rigby. He specifically stated that the cartridge was designed for body shots on elephant for modern day elephant hunting. To see his quoted words in the context of the great .416 Rigby being a proven do-all cartridge spoke to me.

Using which bullet? Velocity?

 

[Tanks]

Call me old school. Whether its to ensure they feed, fire, and don't damage my doubles, or just because they are proven, I like Woodleigh Weldcores. Pretty similar copies with great reputations include Hornady DGX and Federal Trophy Bonded Solids.

I'd submit that based on many hunt reports here, and elsewhere and as @michael458 would attest the CEB solids are proven in the field.

They also have fed flawlessly in my (and other's bolt guns). I also did not see any issues in my double and have not heard of any issues with any modern doubles.

The ones below were recovered from a couple of elephants, due to the banded design contact with the barrel is minimal.

 

[Rare Breed]

Call me old school. Whether its to ensure they feed, fire, and don't damage my doubles, or just because they are proven, I like Woodleigh Weldcores. Pretty similar copies with great reputations include Hornady DGX and Federal Trophy Bonded Solids.

They are all I use in my 1908 Westley Richards 500 NE DR. For elephant I use the Woodleigh FMJ both 570 grains

 

[Rare Breed]

rookhawk off sticks I can now place all my shots in a 4 inch circle every time with my DR at 100 yards! Very happy

 

[Tanks]

Here is the picture I was trying to load above. Hard to make picture posts when one's bandwidth is restricted on a site where it takes minutes for pages to load.

 

[Mark Audino]

Using which bullet? Velocity?

I used Kynoch factory loads with Woodleigh solids.

 

[TOBY458]

I did some load development with the Sako 416 Rigby today. The CEB solids feed like butter in my gun, and I loaded them to the same velocity as my Swift AF loads. I'm doing a mild 2350fps with 400gr bullets. 99gr of RL22 for the Swifts and 100gr RL22 for the CEBs.
Recoil is manageable, and the rifle is very controllable. Now, hopefully the softs and solids will print together on target.

 

[zephyr]

One of the many tests Michael458 did while testing CEB bullets was pressure testing barrels as various bullets were fired using a 470NE. At that time OSR (outside rifling) was all the talk and conventional wisdom was blaming it on Mono-metal bullets. His findings were what led me to use CEB's in my Gibbs 450NE made 1903. CEBs then Northfork proved to create the least amount pressure as they passed down the barrels Woodleighs and Hornady the most..

Barrel Strain Double Rifles

Barrel Strain Double Rifles

www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com

Is this what caused OSR ?? D\on't think so I believe other evils were at work

 

[sureshot375]

Since I've added a bull elephant to my 2023 safari, I've been re-reading this thread. My current gun selection for my upcoming hunt is between these two rifles. One is a Blaser R8 in 458 Win Mag. The other is Sako 85 Brown Bear in 416 Rigby.
The ammo for the 458 would be 450gr CEB solids for Elephant. And either 450gr TSX or 420gr CEB Raptors for Buffalo. All of these are running approximately 2250 in my rifle.
For the 416 I'd be using 400gr CEB solids for Elephant, and 400gr Swifts for Buffalo. I'll be pushing these along at 2300 fps or so.
For elephant and Buffalo in thick cover, both of these rifles would be wearing a Trijjicon 1MOA RMR.
For everything else, I'll be using a 1-4 or 1.5-5 scope. Everything is in qd mounts, so it's a quick and easy swap between all sighting systems.

Heres hoping those rifles don’t round the corner to the kitchen of no return.

 

[Gemsbok45]

I know a 416 with a Barnes Monolithic solid will shot through an Elephant side on. When I walked up to my first bull I was pretty shaky. i shot him behind the shoulder and then emptied the rest into as he ran away. Dead in 100 yards. If it’s a one time hunt of a lifetime,take a heart/ lung.I saw an Italian client lose one on the Mozambique border. It was a quiet camp. Not good.

 

[Rule 303]

One of the many tests Michael458 did while testing CEB bullets was pressure testing barrels as various bullets were fired using a 470NE. At that time OSR (outside rifling) was all the talk and conventional wisdom was blaming it on Mono-metal bullets. His findings were what led me to use CEB's in my Gibbs 450NE made 1903. CEBs then Northfork proved to create the least amount pressure as they passed down the barrels Woodleighs and Hornady the most..

Barrel Strain Double Rifles

Barrel Strain Double Rifles

www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com

Is this what caused OSR ?? D\on't think so I believe other evils were at work

Which Woodleigh's? Their solids of Hydrostatics. The Hydros are bore riders similar to the CEB above. That is the bands are grove depth and the shank is same or slightly smaller than the lands.

 

[One Day...]

So..................

With my own elephant hunt this coming August 2021 in Zimbabwe, God permitting, and if the current enlightened American Administration does not screw the pooch too bad on international travels, I too have given this a lot of thoughts. I will be hunting a bull, but I would not think any differently if it was a notoriously cantankerous tuskless cow.

Since I already own a Krieghoff double .470 NE, it will come as no surprise that this will be my primary rifle, but my backup rifle - should a dream 60 pounder show up across a clearing that we cannot cross to less than 50 yards - will be a scoped R8 .375 H&H loaded with Norma PH Woodleigh solids 350 gr.

If I did not own a double .470...

1) I am not sure that I would buy one !?!?!? A well handled Blaser R8 will double "almost" (but not quite) as fast as a double rifle, but even if its second shot is a little slower, its third and fourth shots will definitely be faster than a double's.

2) I would not buy a factory .416 Rem (or custom .404 Jeffery) barrel for the R8. The .40+ are certainly a big step up from the .375 H&H 300 gr, but:

• the .40+ 400 gr are apparently only a modest step up from the .375 H&H 350 gr (ref. Kevin "doctari" Robertson);
• the .40+ are great killers but not great stoppers (ref. the long list of PHs who have in the end moved from a .40+ to a .45+ with Buzz Charlton coming to mind as a recent example - and few are more experienced than he his on modern elephant).

Of course, a 450 gr .40+ slug will up the game, just as a 350 gr .375 slug ups the game, but still it will be short of the next step: a 500 gr .45+ slug that has been the accepted reference for over a century.

3) I would buy a .458 Lott factory barrel for the R8. The .458 Lott is the modern equivalent to the classic .450 / .470 / .500 NE. Based on a large number of professionals' feedback, it hits noticeably harder on body shots that a 40+, and it is likely to stun/stumble an elephant, especially a cow, on a close miss at the brain shot. There is no guaranty of this, but many pros believe that it is probable, based on their own experience (ref. from "Pondoro" Taylor to Buzz Charlton). These few seconds may buy you the time for a killing heart/lungs body shot after a fumbled brain shot...

Some may prefer a .500 Jeffery R8 factory barrel. I am not advocating that energy kills* but energy is a mathematical indicator of penetration potential (with the right bullet) and killing/stopping power (however we care to calculate it), and bullet weight as well as bullet caliber/frontal area are objective measurements. Therefore, the .500 Jeff 570 gr (6,700 ft./lbs.) is a bigger hammer than the .458 Lott 500 gr (5,900 ft./lbs.), which itself is a bigger hammer than the .416 Rigby/Rem 400 gr (5,100 ft./lbs.). However, 100 years of experience seem to indicate that a 500 gr .45+ solid at 2,150 fps works well enough, so a modern 500 gr .458 mono/meplat solid at 2,300 fps is good enough for me, and I really like the .458 Lott (and .458 Win in a pinch) ammo quasi universal availability over the .500 Jeff limited offering. Hand-loaders who live in country likely have a different perspective.

* interestingly, the .375 H&H 350 gr (4,100 ft./lbs.) generates less "energy" than the .375 H&H 300 gr (4,300 ft./lbs.) due to the fact that it flies slower, and velocity is squared in the energy calculation, but based on people in the know and with the experience to back it, it is a notoriously more effective killer and stopper on thick skinned dangerous game from Buff to Elephant, Hippo, etc. The same applies to the .416 400 gr (5,100 ft./lbs.) and the .416 400 gr (4,600 ft./lbs.).

All this being said, because the heart/lungs area is approximately the size of a suitcase, and the brain is approximately the size of a foot/rugby ball from the side, and a baseball from the front, OF COURSE it is logical that for neophyte elephant hunters the heart/lungs shot is a safer route than the brain shot............. Not to mention that if you hover a few square feet inside the lungs area you have a dead elephant, but if you miss the brain by only a few inches, you likely have a very expensive lost elephant - unless the PH kills it for you with a backup heart/lungs shot................ but don't we all prefer to kill our own game...............

In the end I did shoot the elephant with the R8 and its .375 H&H barrel because I encountered exactly the scenario for which I had brought it. In truth the elephant was not quite a 60 pounder, but the shot came on the day before last, across a clearing at not quite 100 yards, but a lot closer to 100 than to 50, and I remember grabbing the R8 from the tracker without even a second of hesitation. Two quick behind-the-shoulder double lung & heart shots with the Norma PH Woodleigh solids 350 gr later, I did grab back the .470 double to do the follow up, but it turned out to be unnecessary as we found him a couple hundred yards later, on the floor, dead as can be.

And the almost same scenario repeated itself the following year on lion (the only difference being that I had already bought the .458 Lott barrel but not sold yet the .470 double), although I had the window for only one shot: end of day shot closer to 100 than 50 yards, and again I grabbed the R8 without a second thought and sent a .458 Lott Barnes TSX 500 gr on its way. Again, the follow up with the .470 was brief, and the lion was deader than dead when we found him 100 yards or so later.

Three points in this, for me:

1) I am now definitely convinced -- notwithstanding the old African wisdom of breaking the shoulder, when bullets could not be relied upon to stay together and penetrate deep enough -- that the behind-the-shoulder double lung & heart shot kills anything that lives. No mammal can go far with an exploded heart and collapsed lungs. By the way I also took a Buffalo with this shot and it was a one-shot kill with no need for "insurance" shot as it was so obviously dead when we got to him, one death below and 100 yards later, that there was no point shooting again. That shot was with the new .470 Hornady DGX bonded, and the bullet behaved it it was supposed to. In Africa as Europe / Canada / America this is now the only shot I take.

2) I sold my Krieghoff .470 double and I did buy a .458 Lott barrel for the R8, and I could not be happier. I shoot the first shot just as fast as I did with the double, I shoot the second shot not discernibly slower than I did with the double as I am reloaded by the time the rifle comes down from recoil, and should it be needed shots 3 and 4 would go from the R8 light years before they would from the double. Not to mention that the Leica Magnus 1-6×24 on the .458 Lott barrel makes shooting it so easy, and that shooting the R8 thousands of times per year with anything from .22 LR, to .223, to .257 Wby, to .300 Wby, to .375 H&H and .458 Lott has grown it as an extension of my arm.

3) The .458 Lott barrel allows a lot more flexibility than the double .470 on PG opportunities. No, I will not take the risk of emptying the hunting block with an unnecessary shot on PG while hunting DG, but should the next world record Buffalo cross my path, I likely would take him, and in any case it has proved useful to have a little reach to take a young impala or two for the pot on the way back to camp (I love fresh grilled impala liver!). Even without playing with a BDC turret, which I do not have on the .458 Lott barrel, if you hold just a tad high, you will connect with anything out to 200 yards.

 

[Rule 303]

One Day your point No1 is deeply flawed. It is not for the reasons you give. An Elephant can not walk on 3 legs so the second shot of breaking the leg/shoulder is to ensure that while it lives it can not trample you. You were less than 100 mts from him when you shot and found him 200 meters away. This was stressed to me by my PH's when I was hunting the two Els that I have taken.

 

[One Day...]

One Day your point No1 is deeply flawed. It is not for the reasons you give. An Elephant can not walk on 3 legs so the second shot of breaking the leg/shoulder is to ensure that while it lives it can not trample you. You were less than 100 mts from him when you shot and found him 200 meters away. This was stressed to me by my PH's when I was hunting the two Els that I have taken.

Hmmm...........

To each our own, but this triggers a few thoughts:

First, I believe that there is ample literature speaking about elephant being anchored by a broken hip, not a broken shoulder. I may be wrong on this (?). In any case I remember seeing (in a video) an elephant walk on 3 feet with the fourth one having been so damaged / gangrened by a poacher snare that he could not use that front leg. No doubt a broken shoulder would make an elephant slower, but as to anchor him, I do not know (?).

Second, in the case of this specific elephant, it was "running" away at an slight angle (in as much as an elephant cannot run but just can only walk fast), and my goal was not to stop him but to be sure that it was mortally hit, hence a second shot in the vital area (it ended up landing ~4" from the first one, and both were deadly). I did have in mind to shoot for the hip or root of the tail (spine) with a third shot, but a tree got it the way.

Had it faced me and charged, I would still not have shot for the shoulder to try to anchor him, but for the brain to either pole-ax him or turn him.

Also, I must admit that I never heard of a PH recommending a shoulder shot on a sideway elephant.

Actually, I just checked with Kevin "Doctari" Robertson The Perfect Shot, and clearly he does not advise hitting the shoulder, and actually recommends to "significantly reduce the risk of hitting the massive and solid humerus". He obviously would not say that if he thought that breaking the shoulder is an advisable shot...

But this does not mean that your PH did not ask you to do it...

My own 2 shots were about a foot behind the recommended shot (red dot), to account for the elephant quartering a bit away. They clearly worked.

So, "deeply flawed" or not, I will stand by what I said earlier...

As I said in opening: to each our own...

 

[colorado]

I could have loaned you my 500 Jeffery. I've only used it on elk, feral hogs and maybe another brown bear

 

[Rule 303]

Hmmm...........

To each our own, but this triggers a few thoughts:

First, I believe that there is ample literature speaking about elephant being anchored by a broken hip, not a broken shoulder. I may be wrong on this (?). In any case I remember seeing (in a video) an elephant walk on 3 feet with the fourth one having been so damaged / gangrened by a poacher snare that he could not use that front leg. No doubt a broken shoulder would make an elephant much slower, but as to anchor him, I do not know (?).

Second, in the case of this specific elephant, it was "running" away at an slight angle (in as much as an elephant cannot run but just can only walk fast), and my goal was not to stop him but to be sure that it was mortally hit, hence a second shot in the vital area (it ended up landing ~4" from the first one, and both were deadly). I did have in mind to shoot for the hip or root of the tail (spine) with a third shot, but a tree got it the way.

Had it faced me and charged, I would still not have shot for the shoulder to try to anchor him, but for the brain to either pole-ax him or turn him.

Also, I must admit that I never heard of a PH recommending a shoulder shot on a sideway elephant. But this does not mean that your PH did not ask you to do it.

As I said in opening: to each our own...

Some food for thought. My Els were brain shot and the PH stressed 2nd shot to break leg, I gues when they are less then 20yards from you anything to stop them there and a leg is easier to hit than the brain if things get tenses .

In the situation you describe I think you did the right thing and I do know about trees getting in the way

 

[One Day...]

Some food for thought. My Els were brain shot and the PH stressed 2nd shot to break leg, I gues when they are less then 20yards from you anything to stop them there and a leg is easier to hit than the brain if things get tenses .

In the situation you describe I think you did the right thing and I do know about trees getting in the way

I had practiced a lot for the brain shot, but I hunted on CampFire Communal Lands in Zimbabwe near the Hwange National Park, and I guarantee you that in that area elephant do not stand placidly around when getting caught raiding shambas

Conversely, we did approach some to within almost touching distance in dense jesse, but these were family groups without shootable males.