Body Shots On Elephant (Does Caliber Really Matter?)

[postoak]

I was just responding to the post that said penetration was important on brain shots. Lots of calibers have the penetration ability for that.

 

[BeeMaa]

I was just responding to the post that said penetration was important on brain shots. Lots of calibers have the penetration ability for that.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "Lots of calibers have the penetration ability for that." Which calibers were you referring to because it sounds like you are advocating for .30 caliber and below bullets could penetrate like a .375 and above. Tell you what, let's do a little science and figure this out.

P=MV is the equation for momentum. P is momentum, M is mass, V is velocity.

I'm using this caliber as an example of a modern cartridge for no other reason than it is a common cartridge and everyone knows not to hunt Elephant with a .30 caliber rifle.

308WIN with a 165 grain (10.69 g) bullet at 852 m/sec yields 9.1 Kg m/sec

375H&H with a 300 grain (19.44 g) bullet at 762 m/sec yields 14.81 Kg m/sec.

458LOTT with a 500 grain (32.4 g) bullet at 672 m/sec yields 21.77 Kg m/sec.

So what have we learned? Straight line penetration (momentum) is a product of the mass and speed at which a projectile is moving. It's easy to see the gains that are made when going up in caliber, even though the bullet is moving slower. Lessons learned by the likes of Taylor (KO Factor) and Kevin Robertson with his equation for the same. I'm sure these are the reasons for the caliber (or energy) minimums set forth by governments.

Obviously there are other factors such as bullet construction and sectional density (among others) that are major contributors in the ability of a bullet to push through bone and get to the brain. But the laws of physics can not be denied...a lighter bullet does not have the potential to penetrate to the depth of a heavier one, even if it's moving faster. Did people use calibers below .375/9.3mm back in the day to hunt Elephant...sure. Do people (poachers) still do it...certainly. As a responsible member of the hunting community is it a good idea...I think the numbers speak for themselves.

 

[VertigoBE]

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "Lots of calibers have the penetration ability for that." Which calibers were you referring to because it sounds like you are advocating for .30 caliber and below bullets could penetrate like a .375 and above. Tell you what, let's do a little science and figure this out.

P=MV is the equation for momentum. P is momentum, M is mass, V is velocity.

I'm using this caliber as an example of a modern cartridge for no other reason than it is a common cartridge and everyone knows not to hunt Elephant with a .30 caliber rifle.

308WIN with a 165 grain (10.69 g) bullet at 852 m/sec yields 9.1 Kg m/sec

375H&H with a 300 grain (19.44 g) bullet at 762 m/sec yields 14.81 Kg m/sec.

458LOTT with a 500 grain (32.4 g) bullet at 672 m/sec yields 21.77 Kg m/sec.

So what have we learned? Straight line penetration (momentum) is a product of the mass and speed at which a projectile is moving. It's easy to see the gains that are made when going up in caliber, even though the bullet is moving slower. Lessons learned by the likes of Taylor (KO Factor) and Kevin Robertson with his equation for the same. I'm sure these are the reasons for the caliber (or energy) minimums set forth by governments.

Obviously there are other factors such as bullet construction and sectional density (among others) that are major contributors in the ability of a bullet to push through bone and get to the brain. But the laws of physics can not be denied...a lighter bullet does not have the potential to penetrate to the depth of a heavier one, even if it's moving faster. Did people use calibers below .375/9.3mm back in the day to hunt Elephant...sure. Do people (poachers) still do it...certainly. As a responsible member of the hunting community is it a good idea...I think the numbers speak for themselves.

Would you be able to adjust for the diameter of the bullet and therefore the ease with which a bullet can penetrate?

Don’t get wrong me wrong, I fully agree with your physics approach and it’s results, however kg per m/sec is still a potential energy figure, which should be adjusted for some kind of penetration factor? A needle of the same weight and speed will penetrate better than a golf ball.

Thank you,

V

 

[BeeMaa]

Would you be able to adjust for the diameter of the bullet and therefore the ease with which a bullet can penetrate?

Don’t get wrong me wrong, I fully agree with your physics approach and it’s results, however kg per m/sec is still a potential energy figure, which should be adjusted for some kind of penetration factor? A needle of the same weight and speed will penetrate better than a golf ball.

Thank you,

V

Yes. Like I said...there are several factors that go into penetration with frontal area being one I failed to mention. Here is the Taylor KO Factor Calculator...

https://www.n4lcd.com/calc/

For the examples I gave...
308WIN KO Factor is 20
375H&H KO Factor is 40
458LOTT KO Factor is 70

I truly believe modern bullet construction that was not available in the Golden Age of Hunting Africa has done more to advance the lethality of cartridges than anything else. Bonded bullets like the Swift A-Frame. All copper bullets from Barnes like the TSX. And monolithic solids from CEB, Nosler and Woodleigh. All have the ability to retain weight and drive deep & straight, even when hitting bone. All of these factors are in play.

And let us not forget the most important aspect of this...shot placement. None of these calculations will result in a humane kill (or save your butt in the event of a charge) if the shot is not in the correct spot. Even when it seem that it's in the correct spot, game has been lost. Bottom line is to be prepared...for everything...the best you can. Proper caliber & bullet with proper shot placement is a recipe for success. The lessons of the past have been written in blood, best we heed those warnings.

 

[postoak]

I look at it a little differently. It's not the total momentum that counts, it's the momentum per unit area. A longer bullet, of any diameter, driven at the same speed as a shorter one will always penetrate more, given bullets that don't deform. For "length" you can substitute sectional density which is the same thing for a cylindrical piece of metal of same density.

The bullets that have provided suitable penetration on elephant brain shots have pretty consistent sectional densities across caliber:

6.5 mm 160 grain - .328

7 mm 175 grain - .310

.308 caliber 220 grain - .331

.375 caliber 300 grain - .305

.416 caliber 400 grain - .330

.458 caliber 500 grain - .341

You then have to look at the speeds various cartridges in these calibers are able to drive these bullets.

6.5 mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer 160 gr. - 2395 fps
7 x 57 Mauser 175 gr. - 2300 fps
.30-06 220 gr. - 2400 fps
.375 H&H 300 gr - 2550 fps
.416 Rigby 400 gr. - 2400 fps
.458 Win Mag 500 gr. - 2150 fps

All these cartridge/ bullet combinations with non-expanding bullets have been shown by guys like Bell and Taylor to have more than adequate penetration for elephant brain shots.

You could go further and multiply the sectional density times velocity and get an even better number for penetration if you wanted to.

 

[Christot]

Only taking energy or impuls into consideration is insufficient. Otherwise armies would not have made armor piercing ammunition by using hard metalls in the same calibre but would have always used longer, heavier bullets.
The principle process is that the bullet will slow down in a media. If a fluid is hit (like meat) the principles of aerodynamics can be used to describe the process. Some main factors are surface area, drag coefficient, velocity and density. Those are used to describe drag, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_(physics)

Which means velocity up, density up (in impact direction), surface area down and drag coefficient down (a needle is better than a flat nose in air but in water things change if you want to get cavitation - hint: meat is more similar to water). In addition those values shouldn't change by travelling through media. If surface area increases also the density in this direction will decrease so you lose twice. Therefore shear strength of the bullet should be high enough to get the desired deformation or no deformation. The reason why solids outpenetrate deforming projectiles. Lead bullets are a good example for insufficient penetration at velocities leading to severe deformation.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I wouldn't say that! But that Heym sure is mighty pretty to be dragging through the thorns. My synthetic stocked 416 would make much more sense!

Toby, that is what the Heym is made for.

 

[TOBY458]

Or....rather than doing all of these math equations, I think we'd all do well by listening to the people who have been there and done that. And by taking their advice on what works and what doesn't. I for one have never killed an elephant. Just 6 buffalo to date. So very limited overall experience with really big animals on my part. All I have to add to the discussion is, on buffalo, I found the 375 H&H to penetrate more than enough to comfortably take any reasonable shot opportunities that may arrise. On Elephant, I simply don't have first hand experience, so I'll have to revert back to the experts. MOST of them will tell you that a 416 is a good starting point for general Elephant hunting, and a 458 upward is better yet. While some will say the 375 and even smaller calibers are all you need on brain shots, but is mostly just adequate for body shots. I think most calibers can be made to penetrate well enough if the right bullets are used. But the frontal area of the bullet can not be made up for by simply adding weight and SD to a smaller caliber.

 

[TOBY458]

Toby, that is what the Heym is made for.

The Heym is long gone! Lol!

 

[BryceM]

I just got back from a Caprivi hunt. Once the buffalo was in the salt I had an unexpected and amazing opportunity to hunt for elephant. Due to a cancellation, one animal was still available on quota. I was using a CZ 550 .416 Rigby, 400 gr TSX for the buffalo and was glad to have brought along a dozen 400 gr Barnes solids. My PH loved the TSX for buffalo but was very clear that only solids should ever be attempted on elephant. He was willing to allow a try on a frontal or side brain shot, but strongly recommended a broadside heart shot if available.

I quickly learned that the situation when hunting elephant is fluid and unpredictable. You better be ready for all three possibilities. On the last day of the hunt we finally located a suitable bull along with his two askari in a mopane forest. After a stalk, we eventually caught up, sorted through them, and had the largest bull at 25 yards, very slightly quartering away. If this seems close, or easy, you should try it. Hunting elephants in dense mopane is something you have to experience to understand. They're constantly moving and feeding. The two younger bulls started sparing and tearing up everything like out-of-control bulldozers. Getting a clear, steady shot is a luxury that doesn't always happen. Even at 10 yards you can usually see only a small part of the animal. When I shot, the PH instantly fired a solid from his .470 double per our previous plan. The bullets impacted a few inches apart form each other. The last thing I wanted was huge trophy fee, no trophy, and a wounded animal. After a 20 minute slow and cautious search (we weren't sure where his buddies went) we found the bull about 60-70 yards away, and follow-up shot were not required. Excitement does not begin to describe the experience.

I've studied the cross-sectional anatomy of the elephant's head and brain. The skull is massive, (MASSIVE!!!! when they turn and look at you inside of 25 yards), and the brain quite small. I think I could probably make that shot, most of the time, but everything has to work out, or he simply turns and trots off at a pace you'll never match. Given the choice, I'd take the heart shot every time.

As for caliber, I felt OK with the .416 because I knew it, trusted it, and learned to actually shoot it well. The bigger stuff is great for backup, but difficult to master. The .416 is right in the sweet spot IMO. I have a .375 too, but would feel it's a bit light (and fast) for both buffalo and elephant.

Just my two cents following a quick, but epic adventure.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I look at it a little differently. It's not the total momentum that counts, it's the momentum per unit area. A longer bullet, of any diameter, driven at the same speed as a shorter one will always penetrate more, given bullets that don't deform. For "length" you can substitute sectional density which is the same thing for a cylindrical piece of metal of same density.

The bullets that have provided suitable penetration on elephant brain shots have pretty consistent sectional densities across caliber:

6.5 mm 160 grain - .328

7 mm 175 grain - .310

.308 caliber 220 grain - .331

.375 caliber 300 grain - .305

.416 caliber 400 grain - .330

.458 caliber 500 grain - .341

You then have to look at the speeds various cartridges in these calibers are able to drive these bullets.

6.5 mm Mannlicher-Schoenauer 160 gr. - 2395 fps
7 x 57 Mauser 175 gr. - 2300 fps
.30-06 220 gr. - 2400 fps
.375 H&H 300 gr - 2550 fps
.416 Rigby 400 gr. - 2400 fps
.458 Win Mag 500 gr. - 2150 fps

All these cartridge/ bullet combinations with non-expanding bullets have been shown by guys like Bell and Taylor to have more than adequate penetration for elephant brain shots.

You could go further and multiply the sectional density times velocity and get an even better number for penetration if you wanted to.

@postoak
You for got the 318 250gn @.364
35cal 275gn @.307 and the 310 @.346
338 300gn @.375
Plus others. These SDs are for solid projectiles as soft points of any shape alter their sd as they expand.
Big Game to me means big bullets at moderat velocities.
That's only my opinion
Bob

 

[postoak]

I think I could probably make that shot, most of the time, but everything has to work out, or he simply turns and trots off at a pace you'll never match. Given the choice, I'd take the heart shot every time.

John Taylor discusses a near miss of a brain shot at length and, in fact, developed his Taylor's Knock Out Formula specifically to quantize different cartridges. Basically, a near miss by a larger caliber won't result in an elephant running off immediately. It is stunned and fall downs and out for anywhere from seconds to several minutes. I don't remember the specifics but from what I remember, if I was attempting such a shot, something like the .458 Lott or larger would be what I would want to have in my hands.

 

[BryceM]

Ideally yes, but it seems that not all elephants have read about his formula. Are you willing to bet a lost animal and $30-50k on Taylor's theory? I wasn't. There are loads of stories of skull hits inches away from the brain that had minimal effect. There are plenty of Internet videos showing the same thing too. In the open, a flubbed brain shot will probably result in a good outcome most of the time. In dense bush, after one or two steps the thing will be invisible, and there's a possibility it won't be recovered.

 

[F. Vaccaro]

Ideally yes, but it seems that not all elephants have read about his formula. Are you willing to bet a lost animal and $30-50k on Taylor's theory? I wasn't. There are loads of stories of skull hits inches away from the brain that had minimal effect. There are plenty of Internet videos showing the same thing too. In the open, a flubbed brain shot will probably result in a good outcome most of the time. In dense bush, after one or two steps the thing will be invisible, and there's a possibility it won't be recovered.

Or worst case senerio he stomps you into pudding?

 

[bill73]

I have only one elephant to my credit,PH wanted a shoulder shot,it was on the small side for a tuskless,I followed his instruction,one shot,one tuskless down inside of 20 yrds,gun used my O/U DR in 458 Lott,450 NF FN's @ 2250 fps,I enjoy my big bore guns,I also prefer a .416 or larger for all DG,I have seen a back up shot on a buff with a 375,it was on a charging buff,did nothing because shot placement was not entirely possible given the circumstances,I was totally comfortable with my 470 that day

 

[Hunter-Habib]

I’ve shot 2 African bull elephant with a .375 Holland & Holland Magnum (photos can be found on my media page). One was downed with six Remington 300Gr round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids to the heart-lung region from the broadside position and when quartering away. The other took a single side brain shot with a 300Gr Norma monolithic solid.

Anybody who recommends using expanding bullets on an elephant has no business hunting elephant. Also, even though I’m a huge proponent of the .375 … I believe it’s far from ideal when taking body shots on elephant.

When taking body shots, you’re causing death by rupturing vital organs and causing the game to hemorrhage by losing blood. Bigger wound cavities= faster blood loss. A 300Gr .375 solid doesn’t make a hole in the heart or lungs big enough to cause an elephant to hemorrhage as quick as say… a 600Gr .505 Gibbs solid.

For body shots on elephant, I’d start minimum with .450 caliber.

 

[michael458]

I quickly learned that the situation when hunting elephant is fluid and unpredictable. You better be ready for all three possibilities.

A very very true statement ........ and fluid means it can completely change in seconds.

Also, even though I’m a huge proponent of the .375 … I believe it’s far from ideal when taking body shots on elephant.

A 300Gr .375 solid doesn’t make a hole in the heart or lungs big enough to cause an elephant to hemorrhage as quick as say… a 600Gr .505 Gibbs solid.

For body shots on elephant, I’d start minimum with .450 caliber.

Absolutely 100% Correct and then some more..............

I believe in "CALIBER" for Buffalo, Hippo and for sure Elephant. I have only taken 10 elephant. In every case I was using from 458 caliber to .500 caliber, and Caliber makes a big difference. Also the choice of bullet.... very simply put, a Round Nose Solid does not make much of a hole, and pushes its way through tissue, and can easily close back up. Big Flat Nose Solids are like cookie cutters or wadcutters, leaving a caliber size hole in tissue, and not likely to close up especially with larger calibers.

Talk about "Fluid" ........... in Zimbabwe we had 3 juvenile bulls, basically teenagers I suppose causing nightly issues in the nearby village. Every day we drive by and the elders of the village and concession were begging for help. After 3 days my guy asks if I would like to help solve this issue, and of course I was always up for such activities. We knew exactly where these buggers were hanging out until dark, and it was a very thick section right at the edge of the village. We approached, found them, and got on hands and knees to get right on top of them, just beind a thicket they were lounging about in. I had a hole about 8-10 inches I could look through, and we were right on top of them, less than 10 steps away. My PH pointed one out...... Our thoughts were to take one out, the other two would leave the area, solving the issue, house and crop raiding that was going on every night. OK, I line up for a side brain...... I am shooting a 500 MDM and 500 gr CEB Flat Nose Solids at 2400 fps. In a millisecond they caught our scent, and started to scatter, I dropped my rifle to what I believed was raking shot into the heart from the rear. Took the shot, he was running from left to right, the other two turned, and he turned with them, I shot another round, but too far back and in the stomach, and then they were out of sight.

Our entire entourage took up the trail...... Myself, Two PH's, Wife, 8 year old Daughter and two trackers with them in the rear, and of course #1 tracker with me and the PH's. Blood everywhere, incredible amounts spewing out, but only one side of the trail........Hmmmm........We wind around a trail in the thickets for about 60-70 yards slowly....... In front of us there is an open spot, completely surrounded by thick thick thick brush and tangled vines. We can see our elephant's feet, backed into the far side of this small opening...... backed up, and facing towards us. First indication of a problem. One PH and myself approach the edge of the opening.... can't see anything through the thicket, I get back down on hands knees crawling to an small opening in the brush to get a shot......the elephant had a different idea, soon as I made it to the opening, below the thick brush, here he came, from about 10-12 yards. My first shot was totally too far back, it was a snap shot taken before I could even get in position, the unsteady position caused me to fall backwards flat on my back, the second shot went to the heavens...... by the time I had the third round chambered the elephant had hit the brush in front of me, 6 feet or less, I was on my back looking up into the elephants chest, I poked the rifle through the brush into the chest of the elephant and let the third round go. The elephant turned to his left, then fell over at that point.

The .500 caliber solid hit hard.......... and I believe to this day that larger caliber flat nose solid saved the day. And hitting point blank at 2400 fps didn't hurt anything either. The two PH's never had a clear shot, standing behind me, one took a shot from the far side through the brush, but it hit too far back as well to be effective, he was using a 416 Remington. The other PH never fired from the front because there was no shot for him.

It was late evening when this occurred, so we put the autopsy off until the next morning. On our way to the area, we ran across three good bull buffalo...... well damn, that was too good to pass up. So we disembarked and the hunt was on. I had a great point on the shoulder shot, and put a 450 Gr Safari Raptor on the point of the shoulder at 30 yards, bullet was traveling at nearly 2500 fps. Bull jumped, and went through a thicket about 5 steps away. Reloaded the 500 MDM and went to investigate, just on the other side of the thicket a few steps, it was wide open, and the bull had laid down just the other side of a big fallen down log. The log big enough that I could not shoot, to the rear was more thick brush, so no rear approach possible. The only approach was from the front? Well damn. At about 5 steps the bull jumped to its feet, I snap shot sorta between the eyes which stopped everything, still standing I put another one in next to that quickly and the affair had ended as quickly as it started.............

The bulls left shoulder was completely busted all to hell, he really could not have done much regardless. The 450 Raptor had torn him all to pieces, busted the bone all to hell, and ripped lungs and other tissue to shreds. All he could do was get to his feet to try and finish the battle on his terms....... There is nothing on the planet like Buffalo..........

We made it back to the elephant and went to work........... I was particularly interested in the heart shot that I had taken at point blank, and what it had done to the heart. It had turned the elephant, no doubt about it, it took the fight completely out......... The big .500 caliber Flat Nose had done a number on the heart at 2400 fps. It hit with incredible force as you can see.................

I was on the other side of this thick brush and vines when I had to take my shots laying on my back...

Yes, I believe in Caliber and Proper Bullet design............ Anyone that says otherwise..... well..... draw your own conclusions to that.............

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Yes, I believe in Caliber and Proper Bullet design....

Michael458,

That's a heck of a great true story!
Thanks for sharing!
Mark

 

[michael458]

Michael458,

That's a heck of a great true story!
Thanks for sharing!
Mark

No worries....... Yeah, in about an 18 hour time frame I had both an Elephant and a buffalo wanting to eat me....... Good fun...........

 

[daawg1963]

I am contemplating doing an elephant hunt in the near future. I realize that most people prefer a brain shot for Elephant, but in the case that a heart/lung shot is presented, wouldn't that make a much larger target? I also realize the Elephant could possibly run for quite some distance before succumbing to such a shot, but if placement was correct, the outcome should be certain.
That said, due to the large size of an Elephant, and the fact that solids would most likely be used, is there really a huge difference in effectiveness between a 375 bullet, vs something larger? Say 416, 404 or 458. I'm sure the bigger guns are always somewhat more effective, but on such a huge animal, they all seem relatively small bore when considering a heart/lung shot.

Break some Bones Shoulder Hip