Blaser R8 - Why do African PH’s and Alaskan Bear Guides Choose Not To Use Blaser R8’s?

[bowjijohn]

The safety of any firearm is between the ears of the person who has the firearm in his hands.
If I have the mag loaded and an empty chamber I can shoulder and carry as I prefer, of course always having the muzzle in a safe direction irrespective.
When a round is chambered I have the rifle in my hands safety or not.
I use ZKK actioned DG rifles, having a round chambered and the rifle on safe the African carry is not on as any brush above can move it off safety....

Commin sense needs to prevail irrespective of type of firearm

In the light of what has just been written, I feel compelled to reiterate that - although happier to carry the R8 with a round in chamber and de-cocked - I still, even with the R8 carry it without round in the chamber

It takes but a moment to chamber a round

 

[Red Leg]

There is nothing remotely wrong with using the R8 in thick bush or against DG in my opinion

I carry a Mauser with closed bolt over empty chamber

However, with the R8 I am happy to carry it with a round in chamber and the cocking device on safe (actually it is depressurising the spring) - that, after all, was what it was designed for

With the de-cocker un-cocked you cannot take the rifle out of battery by knocking the bolt handle - you have to partially apply the cocking slide simultaneously in order to pull the bolt back.

For a fall or branch to knock the R8 out of battery you would have to have the rifle loaded and cocking device in 'fire'

I would have thought it ''inadvisable'' to wander through the bush with live round in chamber and safety off, except in the very last moments

De-cocking can be done either by thumb (quite hard work) or by simply dropping the trigger group out a bit and replacing it again

In the 4 years I've owned the R8 I have yet to find a single issue with its operation save perhaps top loading - I do find top loading a bit fiddly but then again it is not a drill I practice much with the R8

You have owned a R8 for four years and believe decocking is difficult with the thumb?!? It is very easily done with the thumb by simply pressing downward on the cocking slide. Takes maybe a couple of lbs of pressure, and the rifle never has to leave the shoulder. I have never heard of anyone decocking a R8 by removing the trigger group.

 

[bowjijohn]

You have owned a R8 for four years and believe decocking is difficult with the thumb?!? It is very easily done with the thumb by simply pressing downward on the cocking slide. Takes maybe a couple of lbs of pressure, and the rifle never has to leave the shoulder. I have never heard of anyone decocking a R8 by removing the trigger group.

But can be done

Initially I did find loading the cocking slide hard work (perhaps not de-cocking) - it resulted in the only ND I've had with the R8

It was on my own range and I was alone - but it happened - and it happened when I inadvertently anchored my trigger finger on the trigger for extra purchase

Something I'll not do again !!

 

[Dianas Favorite]

My guess is the #1 reason is the same reason most arent toting around Rigby made guns or Merkel doubles..

There arent a whole lot of wealthy African PH's or NA bear guides out there.. The R8 is likely outside their financial means..

There is a reason CZ's are incredibly popular among African PH's... and its not their reputation for reliability out of the box.. Its because they are affordable hard use tools that are practical for guys that make working mans wages... Same goes for the popularity of Winchester, Kimber, Ruger, etc. among bear guides...

Outfitters can make a very nice living if they run/manage a successful lodge...

I've met a few hundred PH's at this point.. and a handful of Alaskan and Wyoming bear guides.. While they are all living the dream.. none of them have the sort of disposable income to invest in an R8..

Most I know that have really nice gear (swaro optics and binos, custom knives, etc..) were gifted those items by happy clients.. they didnt buy those items either... they simply cant afford them..

Thats not to say theyre outside the reach of all PH's... there are certainly some guys that have been in the business a long time, that have saved their money, etc.. and have managed to hoarde enough cash to pick up a nice double or a london bolt gun..

But its not like the guys that do that sort of work for a living do it for the money... the ones that have "expensive" guns are the exception, not the rule...

You are spot on mdwest, the ones that can afford guns from Rigby, Merkel do not tend to use AH websites nor mingle around due to lack of time, they have their preffered PH who organisés the outfitters for them.

The PH are pros, using tools with high wear and tear, that's why they run in bad shoes or mismatched colored clothes. They just burn through them too quickly (one set per season or 10-12 hunts on all clothes) and to get preferd items in their countries takes time and import cost. So they take what is in stock or what they find at DSC or SCI fairs.
And don't forget, they do not earn alot of money after paying Liscenses, Land Cruiser costs and sending money back home for their family.

Back to the Rigby, a fine Mauser action that is even smoother than the Mauser original. I gave my Rigby to my cousin, got myself a new and lighter Mauser in 416 rigby and love the simplicity and low weight. Just got back with a 77lbs elli in Bots. It works in any condition, even after wading through water.

The R8 is a good system, it has been tested by request of Blaser after the debacle of the k93 at the German Govt "Beschussamt" responsible for certifying weapons in DE and the system held even after pressures in excess of 12.000 bars. Similar pressures to the Abrahams tank. So no issues with safety. It is used in many outfitters all over Afrika due to the limitations on fire arm ownerships and the possibility to have many calibres with one rifle. It is different to others, especially the trigger in the mag, a result of German laws to take a component out of your gun when leaving the weapon locked in a container in the car (ex. : going to the restaurant after the hunt). I am not a big fan of it but I have several friends who love the rifle.

On Big and dangerous game a double is preferred for not the initial shot but quick follow up shots to cover up the mess the customer did. That's why they take doubles. When you ask them what rifles they use privately they mostly use bolt actions.

Coming to Merkel, they love them, but as mdwest explained, if it wasn't a gift or a used one they bought at a trade show (or a smithy), they go to what is affordable.
Merkel are fine guns and have several hundred years of experience. I have several from them and they are great. I prefer for hunting in Afrika bolt actions, but that is a personal thing. I took a Helix Speedster in 300winmag and it was working beautifully. It is my second Speedster BTW.

 

[BeeMaa]

But can be done

Initially I did find loading the cocking slide hard work (perhaps not de-cocking) - it resulted in the only ND I've had with the R8

It was on my own range and I was alone - but it happened - and it happened when I inadvertently anchored my trigger finger on the trigger for extra purchase

Something I'll not do again !!

The trigger group can be locked in place with tab inside the bottom of the magazine to prevent inadvertent removal of the magazine/trigger group.

 

[Tanks]

... although happier to carry the R8 with a round in chamber and de-cocked - I still, even with the R8 carry it without round in the chamber

It takes but a moment to chamber a round

Have you been to Africa yet? Have you ever been charged by an elephant or a buffalo?

You do not have that extra moment to chamber a round.

Before my trip with a pair of double rifles I went and shot about a thousand shells of sporting clays (pairs only) with a SxS shotgun (@Red Leg idea) where I shouldered the gun after I yelled "pull". That was to make sure the muscle memory was still there to take the safety off as I was shouldering the gun and switch from front to rear trigger under time pressure.

It paid off in that I did not have to do any thinking about mechanics during my hunt. I can't imagine having to incorporate chambering the gun into firing mechanics if I were carrying a bolt gun.

 

[bowjijohn]

I was borne in Northern Rhodesia - lived with my grandmother on a farm in Wankie, southern Rhodesia

Did my national service with 4 Indep 76 to 78

First job at Kafue Game reserve National Park as a trainee Game ranger

The drills practiced with a Mauser 98 are standard drills for FGASA rangers

A course I completed over 25 years ago

I run DG courses over here with people that have a range of actions from straight pulls to old style actions

Yes Mate - I've been to Africa and yes mate I've been charged by both lion and Buff.

I'm rather sad to have such a comment from folk who's opinion I've come to enjoy reading and who's experience is clearly of note

Shame you can't extend the courtesy

John

 

[Tanks]

With all that experience and training do you think your average safari hunter will remember to chamber a round in the case of a charge etc.? Heck, I'd bet some will get on sticks, aim, pull trigger and then realize they forgot to chamber a round.

Not everyone is a "gun nut" that over trains for an excursion.

 

[bowjijohn]

I think you just want to win the argument

Sorry - I'm not interested in playing games with you

 

[Red Leg]

I was borne in Northern Rhodesia - lived with my grandmother on a farm in Wankie, southern Rhodesia

Did my national service with 4 Indep 76 to 78

First job at Kafue Game reserve National Park as a trainee Game ranger

The drills practiced with a Mauser 98 are standard drills for FGASA rangers

A course I completed over 25 years ago

I run DG courses over here with people that have a range of actions from straight pulls to old style actions

Yes Mate - I've been to Africa and yes mate I've been charged by both lion and Buff.

I'm rather sad to have such a comment from folk who's opinion I've come to enjoy reading and who's experience is clearly of note

Shame you can't extend the courtesy

John

All of us respect your experience John. I will admit your comment about detaching the magazine of an R8 to de-cock it had me wondering about your actual experience with that particular design.

What I interpreted from your previous post is that you recommend hunting DG with an empty chamber. I don't much like doing it on a pure plains game hunt, and fortunately have never had a PH who felt it was appropriate. Rifle has no round in the chamber when in the cruiser, and I chamber and either safe or leave the rifle de-cocked when ready to set off. Upon return to the truck, the chamber is unloaded and the round returned to the magazine. If a PH were to insist I follow a buffalo track with an empty chamber, we would go do something else.

 

[bowjijohn]

Don't read too much into the comment about pressure required to de-cock - we can all write things that, in retrospect, could have been written better or more accurately

I confused the force required to cock with the simple action associated with de-cocking - my mistake

I discovered that removing the trigger group de-cocked the rifle automatically by playing with the rifle and thought it an intriguing facet of an amazing design (the R8)

I was always looking for ways to improve the course I run

When I first set up the DG courses over here a couple of people pitched up with R8s - a rifle I thought at the time was not suitable as I had been steeped in the tradition of a Bruno with Mauser 98 action

I quickly realised that there are many ways to skin a cat

One of the guys who pitched up with an R8 in .375 won the informal comp we ran at the end of the first course.

He got over the difficulties of a ''high speed reload'' simply by having an extra trigger group preloaded - Cheating or what !!

As for hunting with an empty chamber - I have always done that

This was re-emphasised on the FGASA course - however a game range is not a hunter. An animal is only engaged when the ''wheels fall off''.

The drills based upon the principle that an animal should not be shot at a distance greater than 15m - thus giving the animal a chance to go about its business

 

[Red Leg]

Don't read too much into the comment about pressure required to de-cock - we can all write things that, in retrospect, could have been written better or more accurately

I confused the force required to cock with the simple action associated with de-cocking - my mistake

I discovered that removing the trigger group de-cocked the rifle automatically by playing with the rifle and thought it an intriguing facet of an amazing design (the R8)

I was always looking for ways to improve the course I run

When I first set up the DG courses over here a couple of people pitched up with R8s - a rifle I thought at the time was not suitable as I had been steeped in the tradition of a Bruno with Mauser 98 action

I quickly realised that there are many ways to skin a cat

One of the guys who pitched up with an R8 in .375 won the informal comp we ran at the end of the course.

He got over the difficulties of a ''high speed reload'' simply by having an extra trigger group preloaded - Cheating or what !!

Got you. Hope no one keeps score how many times I have misspoken myself on this site.

Don't think I'll go hunting with an extra trigger/magazine group, but for a competition involving a reload ...... got to love the initiative.

 

[bowjijohn]

Got you. Hope no one keeps score how many times I have misspoken myself on this site.

Don't think I'll go hunting with an extra trigger/magazine group, but for a competition involving a reload ...... got to love the initiative.

Thank you Red leg

Much appreciated

I also realise, from other people's comments on here that @Tanks is not without a lot of experience

 

[Red Leg]

Thank you Red leg

Much appreciated

I also realise, from other people's comments on here that @Tanks is not without a lot of experience

Is your training course in Zambia, or have you moved to the south? Just spent a good bit of time with a young Zambian apprentice (with vast previous hunting experience), and was dumbfounded in looking through his task book that he has to complete.

 

[bowjijohn]

It was a South African course - Field Guides Association of Southern Africa

My time in Kafue was thanks to Norman Carr - who set up Luangwa NP - and was at Kafue when my dad was a (or the) Doctor for the area

He was kind enough to help get me a position after nat service

I now live in the UK but return when I can

Yes the courses and project work were a challenge - let alone the exams which required a 75% pass mark

 

[mark-hunter]

How is modern DG course organised, in theory and practical lessons? How many days?

 

[bowjijohn]

How is modern DG course organised, in theory and practical lessons? How many days?

As far as I'm aware there is no formal DG course other than that embedded within a PH or field guides course

these are excellent but long apprenticeships

I put together a 5 day and a 2 day course

The first geared towards zoo staff who have to provide a response team in the event of an escaped animal

The latter is geared towards hunters that just want a bit of fun and/or develop a series of 'muscle memory' drills that they can practice thereafter in their own time - it can only be an intro to the drills that guides and PH use as part of their day job - it can't be anything more than practice drills and we are careful to emphasise the limitations .

It is not without its merits though

I believe there are organisations that run something similar in the US

Limited though they are in scope - there is nothing like developing a set of ''muscle memories'' as I defy anyone to be able think clearly when facing the real thing

 

[Red Leg]

An actual Zambian apprenticeship will take years to complete. The apprentice maintains a log book with a vast set of requirements that are graded by whomever is the accredited PH on a given hunt. It requires everything from multiple DG and PG hunts of all available species, demonstrated mechanical skills, trophy preparation, safety, camp preparation etc, etc, etc. I am a little amazed they get anyone to embark upon it.

 

[Tanks]

An actual Zambian apprenticeship will take years to complete. The apprentice maintains a log book with a vast set of requirements that are graded by whomever is the accredited PH on a given hunt. It requires everything from multiple DG and PG hunts of all available species, demonstrated mechanical skills, trophy preparation, safety, camp preparation etc, etc, etc. I am a little amazed they get anyone to embark upon it.

Seems to be very similar to Zimbabwe PH certification. It takes 4-5 years with a 4% success rate.

 

[One Day...]

My manual of arms with the Blaser R8...

I do it just a bit different, but in an identical way regarding the safety aspect.

I carry the rifle with full magazine and empty chamber until I get in "approach" mode, which can be either the final 25 yards of a PG stalk; or when the spoor gets so fresh that DG can be closed in at any time; or on the follow-up of an animal that was shot and did not drop on the spot.
Client PG or DG hunting is not quail hunting, or PAC work, and the chance for flushing unexpectedly at 10 yards an animal that I could and would want to reflex-shoot without judging it first, is so remote that I am not overly concerned about it.
The final 25 yards of a stalk, or very fresh spoor, justify a loaded chamber and a decocked R8, until the rifle goes on the sticks. And, of course, the follow-up of wounded game requires a loaded chamber, and I would go as far as saying that it likely justifies a cocked R8 when wounded DG is in open sight at bayonet range.

I typically load a round from my belt directly in the R8 chamber, on top of the loaded magazine. Since the R8 does not have a CRF extractor, it does not damage the extractor, and although I do not expect to use 3, or 4, or 5 shots, I see no reason to use the rifle at less than full capacity. And it is a rare case indeed, when I do not have plenty of time to load this way.

I automatically/mechanically reload, during recoil, after each shot, regardless of what I shoot, from Duiker to Elephant.

I systematically unload (remove the cartridge from the chamber) when the approach/follow-up action is over. This can be after a successful approach and shot(s), or this can be after a failed approach, or after a successful approach and a decision not to shoot, etc. Depending on what just happened, I put the cartridge back on my belt if appropriate, or I top the magazine if needed, and I close the bolt on an empty chamber ... and dry fire.
I happily admit that dry firing on an empty chamber is wholly unnecessary with the R8 since I need to cock the action to do it, then decock it after doing it, but for 40 years the "click" has been the final step in triple checking that the rifle is inert, and I still find comfort in it. Leopards do not shed their spots, I guess. Besides, since I invite the PH to listen to the click, it is also for HIS comfort...

I always verify that I have an empty chamber before packing the rifle and boarding the truck, even if I KNOW that I have an empty chamber. Since accidental / negligent discharges mostly happen with firearms that people "KNOW" are unloaded, I guess that knowing is just not enough...

Yes, the R8 is mechanically inert when decocked, and therefore safe, but I still like an empty chamber. Unless in "approach" mode (which includes follow-up), I cannot think of a single reason to carry a cartridge in the chamber, and I can think of a number of scenarios where it could become a liability. For example, on my last Vaal Rhebok hunt, the farmer/rancher whose mountain we were hunting, and who came along to guide, felt free to manipulate my rifle, without asking permission, while I put it down to take a layer off. I was happy that he did it on an empty chamber...

We all are the product of our own experience, and part of my experience is to have helped a South African friend NOT commit suicide after his rifle accidentally killed a woman because a cartridge was in the chamber when everyone thought that the chamber was empty. Of course a long list of firearm safe-handling mistakes were made all along, from the accidental loading of the chamber to the unintended touching of the trigger, but this is not the point; the bottom line point is that empty chambers cannot fire, no matter what...

As to removing the firing/magazine group to decock, I do not do that because I lock the magazine in place before top loading it, to avoid the risk of accidentally loosing it...