Blaser R8 - Why do African PH’s and Alaskan Bear Guides Choose Not To Use Blaser R8’s?

[One Day...]

As to PH's choices regarding the Blaser R8, the Zimbabwe PH I hunted with, observed a few weeks ago after being dumbfounded that I could produce from my small and light Pelican 1700: a double .470; AND a .375; AND a .300; and after he test fired the R8 with the .375 barrel; that if he had the need to travel with his rifles, and if he could afford it, he would assuredly buy one...

I think that this summarizes very well what many of us have been saying all along...

Allow me to add a short story

I took my K Gun .470 double as primary rifle, and my .375 H&H R8 as backup rifle to be carried by one of the several communal trackers tagging along the PH's trackers on a recent Zimbabwe Hwange corridor elephant hunt. Turns out that I carried the .470 for miles and miles for 7 days in jesse so dense that you could not judge an elephant at 10 meters, and that I killed my elephant with the scoped R8 .375 H&H when the shot came at 58 meters across a rare clearing. This validated my pre-hunt decision to bring both rifles, for precisely this possible scenario.

The fact that the bull was quartering away slightly as he crossed the clearing justified another pre-hunt decision: the use of 350 gr .375 solids that gave additional penetration and additional "KO" (re. "Pondoro" Taylor and "Doctari" Robertson writings).

But this is not the story I want to tell. The R8 story that I want to tell is that the PH and I had agreed that if the shot was a brain shot and the elephant collapsed he would not back my shot. Conversely, if it was a body shot, he would back my shot immediately. So here comes the R8 story: I was able to shoot my SECOND shot from the R8, before he shot his first backup shot. And my two shots were about 6" apart. Actually, our 3 shots were all about 6" apart.

I once doubted that the R8 actually repeats faster than a conventional bolt action in the hands of a practiced shooter, and I was even foolish enough to offer AZ beach front property to Red Leg when he asserted it does. I can tell you now that yes, the R8 repeats faster, a lot faster... As to the PH, he just said "woah... I have never seen it before"...

Will you believe me if I say that I am not sure I will keep the double...

 

[Red Leg]

As to PH's choices regarding the Blaser R8, my Zimbabwe PH observed a few weeks ago after being dumbfounded that I could produce from my small and light Pelican 1700: a double .470; AND a .375; AND a .300; and after he test fired the R8 with the .375 barrel; that if he had the need to travel with it, and if he could afford it, he would assuredly buy one...

I think that this summarizes very well what many of us have been saying all along...

Allow me to add a short story

I took my K Gun .470 double as primary rifle, and my .375 H&H R8 as backup rifle to be carried by one of the several communal trackers tagging along the PH's trackers on a recent Zimbabwe Hwange corridor elephant hunt. Turns out that I carried the .470 for miles and miles for 7 days in jesse so dense that you could not judge an elephant at 10 meters, and that I killed my elephant with the scoped R8 .375 H&H when the shot came at 58 meters across a rare clearing. This validated my pre-hunt decision to bring both rifles, for precisely this possible scenario.

The fact that the bull was quartering away slightly as he crossed the clearing justified another pre-hunt decision: the use of 350 gr .375 solids that gave additional penetration and additional "KO" (re. "Pondoro" Taylor and "Doctari" Robertson writings).

But this is not the story I want to tell. The R8 story that I want to tell is that the PH and I had agreed that if the shot was a brain shot and the elephant collapsed he would not back my shot. Conversely, if it was a body shot, he would back my shot immediately. So here comes the R8 story: I was able to shoot my SECOND shot from the R8, before he shot his first backup shot. And my two shots were about 6" apart. Actually, our 3 shots were all about 6" apart.

I once doubted that the R8 actually repeats faster than a conventional bolt action in the hands of a practiced shooter, and I was even foolish enough to offer AZ beach front property to Red Leg when he asserted it does. I can tell you now that yes, the R8 repeats faster, a lot faster... As to my PH, he just said "woah... I have never seen it before"...

View attachment 428390

Will you believe me if I say that I am not sure I will keep the double...

That is one wonderful bull!!

 

[Forrest Halley]

Turns out that I carried the .470 for miles and miles for 7 days in jesse so dense that you could not judge an elephant at 10 meters, and that I killed my elephant with the scoped R8 .375 H&H when the shot came at 58 meters across a rare clearing. This validated my pre-hunt decision to bring both rifles, for precisely this possible scenario.

The fact that the bull was quartering away slightly as he crossed the clearing justified another pre-hunt decision: the use of 350 gr .375 solids that gave additional penetration and additional "KO" (re. "Pondoro" Taylor and "Doctari" Robertson writings).

Will you believe me if I say that I am not sure I will keep the double...

Yes I do. You have little confidence in the double and the .375 is a confident killer. That's a bummer. I'll bet it's a pretty double too.

 

[Tanks]

...Turns out that I carried the .470 for miles and miles for 7 days in jesse so dense that you could not judge an elephant at 10 meters, and that I killed my elephant with the scoped R8 .375 H&H when the shot came at 58 meters across a rare clearing. This validated my pre-hunt decision to bring both rifles, for precisely this possible scenario....

Will you believe me if I say that I am not sure I will keep the double...

Well, the reason I have a Trijicon 1 MOA red dot on my double is just in case I do have a far shot like you did (though if circumstances permit I'd want a closer shot). Shooting my buffalo at 53 yards with it was pretty easy, point the dot at the spot I wanted to shoot and pull the trigger.

I have a feeling with a red dot you could have just as much confidence in it as you do in your .375.

Congratulations again on your bull.

 

[Red Leg]

Yes I do. You have little confidence in the double and the .375 is a confident killer. That's a bummer. I'll bet it's a pretty double too.

Sadly, there is often a difference with between what will most effectively deal with a particular animal and what we desire to employ for the purpose. This clearly treads upon ethical decisions. For instance, I recently hunted a group of PG in Zambia with a Rigby .275. My Blaser with .300 Win Mag barrel attached would have been a more logical and efficient option. But I opted to employ my .275. So long as we are not losing wounded game, most of us, myself included, are ok with such a nostalgic option.

However, with dangerous game, I am rather more significantly conflicted. Whatever desire I may have to use a particular rifle or sighting system for personal nostalgic reasons must be balanced against the overriding responsibility to get everyone home safely. A lost trophy fee is an annoyance; a maimed or dead PH or tracker is something else again.

I have no personal desire to live with the reality that my blown shot with an open sighted .470 essentially killed someone, when my scoped .375 would have executed a perfect shot. That would be the ultimate "bummer.'

 

[Tanks]

...

I have no personal desire to live with the reality that my blown shot with an open sighted .470 essentially killed someone, when my scoped .375 would have executed a perfect shot. That would be the ultimate "bummer.'

That is why just about every PH with a double uses red dots. Best of both worlds, a capable caliber with a red dot and a quick second shot.

There are options for doubles other than a bolt gun with a scope. Not just for the PHs, but clients as well.

Now, of course having a DG class caliber in a double limits one to a certain distance even with a red dot. But I wouldn't take a shot at an elephant at 100 yards even with a scoped bolt gun.

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I thought this thread was about why PHs do not use a R8?

I can only speak for my wife and mine choices of DG backup rifles.

My #1 choice pre-war George Gibbs double. Caliber .470
My #2 choice pre-war single square bridge Rigby .416R

Wife #1 choice .450-400 88b Heym (hopes to have a .470N Heym someday)
Wife #2 choice .404J CZ550, with red dot

Loaners
.375 H&H M-70 Swarovski scoped (Leopard-Hippo-Croc)
.404J CZ Red dot (Buff-elephant)
.404J Jefferies Mauser (Buff-elephant)
.404J Pre-War single square bridge Mauser-Rigby (Buff-elephant)

If a visiting hunter wishes to use a R8 we have no problem, I hope it works well for him or her.

Now that the CZ550 is no longer being made aspiring PHs will have to make other choices. If the R8 happens to be their choice, maybe then after years of use in the worse possible conditions we will know "is this the right rifle for a PH?"

 

[Opposite Pole]

Will you believe me if I say that I am not sure I will keep the double...

With all due respect Sir, this is blasphemy!

 

[Red Leg]

That is why just about every PH with a double uses red dots. Best of both worlds, a capable caliber with a red dot and a quick second shot.

There are options for doubles other than a bolt gun with a scope. Not just for the PHs, but clients as well.

Now, of course having a DG class caliber in a double limits one to a certain distance even with a red dot. But I wouldn't take a shot at an elephant at 100 yards even with a scoped bolt gun.

I think a .40 class double or above is a superb choice for a PH leading clients after DG whatever his choice of sights. I think it is a poor choice for most clients going after their first DG animal. As I have noted here before, an old friend in Mozambique who has been at this game for decades, describes that as the only thing that can really worry him. A red dot mitigates that poor choice a little.

Obviously, there are lots of client hunters who have developed the skill sets, and more importantly, the shot discipline to use a double very effectively. Others, have rifles of suitable accuracy to take advantage of sighting systems that make the double the equivalent of a bolt action with respect to shot placement and effective range (your Heym 9.3). Of course they can and should use a double rifle if that is their preference.

But the vast majority of new DG hunters would be best served by a rifle that takes advantage of their already well developed skill sets.

And even experienced hunters probably shouldn’t kid themselves. I am confident that I could hunt a buffalo with my .470, but I am also certain I could do it far more effectively with my R8.

 

[Forrest Halley]

So what's the real reason professional hunter and guides are not using this design more?

Is it cost?

Is it because they have no need for a switcherifle?

Is it because in the grand scheme of time it lies unproven/under proven?

My vote is cost of entry, the fact that everything about it is not commonly available and for the price of one R8 I could have two or three M70's. That hits fans in the feels, but it's reality. Two or three working rifles for the cost of one. There's just no avoiding the practicality there when "two is one and one is none" becomes applicable.

Also did anyone actually try the tapping out of battery that owns one of the R8s or did that just get shouted down as improbable because it made folks upset? Just a question because I never saw anyone directly say, "I tried it and it's not true. Didn't happen. No click." I'd be interested in seeing a video either way.

 

[Red Leg]

So what's the real reason professional hunter and guides are not using this design more?

Is it cost?

Is it because they have no need for a switcherifle?

Is it because in the grand scheme of time it lies unproven/under proven?

My vote is cost of entry, the fact that everything about it is not commonly available and for the price of one R8 I could have two or three M70's. That hits fans in the feels, but it's reality. Two or three working rifles for the cost of one. There's just no avoiding the practicality there when "two is one and one is none" becomes applicable.

Also did anyone actually try the tapping out of battery that owns one of the R8s or did that just get shouted down as improbable because it made folks upset? Just a question because I never saw anyone directly say, "I tried it and it's not true. Didn't happen. No click." I'd be interested in seeing a video either way.

I tried it and it’s not true. Didn’t happen.

On a slow quite feed the bolt can fail to be pushed all the way into battery. That is operator head space not a design flaw.

 

[Tanks]

...

Obviously, there are lots of client hunters who have developed the skill sets, and more importantly, the shot discipline to use a double very effectively. ...
...

And even experienced hunters probably shouldn’t kid themselves. I am confident that I could hunt a buffalo with my .470, but I am also certain I could do it far more effectively with my R8.

I think the shot discipline is one of the most important aspects of all hunting, not just in Africa or double rifles. Every year we hear of hunters getting killed by other hunters.

From what you tell me, with your scoped .500/416 you could hunt anything that is walking on this Earth. So, I think your R8 .375 preference is a choice not driven just by effectiveness alone. I must admit the R8 is very light compared to doubles of medium action and above and I recall you mentioning that that you are done with schlepping gear miles and miles

I am new to doubles as mentioned before and enjoying the heck out of it. At my upcoming buffalo/tuskless hunt next August I am planning to use the .500 NE again. Now, if for some reason I do go with a bolt gun then my .458 B&M will do the job, and yes it will have a 1-8X scope on it.

 

[Red Leg]

I think the shot discipline is one of the most important aspects of all hunting, not just in Africa or double rifles. Every year we hear of hunters getting killed by other hunters.

From what you tell me, with your scoped .500/416 you could hunt anything that is walking on this Earth. So, I think your R8 .375 preference is a choice not driven just by effectiveness alone. I must admit the R8 is very light compared to doubles of medium action and above and I recall you mentioning that that you are done with schlepping gear miles and miles

I am new to doubles as mentioned before and enjoying the heck out of it. At my upcoming buffalo/tuskless hunt next August I am planning to use the .500 NE again. Now, if for some reason I do go with a bolt gun then my .458 B&M will do the job, and yes it will have a 1-8X scope on it.

As usual, you and I are pretty much in complete agreement (well maybe not bore size).

But to provide an example, a good acquaintance purchased a .500 K-Gun for a pending bull elephant hunt to Namibia. This was his first double and first elephant. He asked to come by and verify zero. I readily agreed and he fired two shots over open sights at fifty yards that printed reasonably well, announced his satisfaction, and left three weeks latter on his hunt. There he fired a shot into a bull generally behind the shoulder that was followed by two from his PH. Dead elephant. But damn.

I have used my scoped Blaser S2 (with .375 barrels not 500/416) on a mixed bag safari in coastal Mozambique. It worked beautifully from up close to quite far on everything from duiker to cape buffalo. But like your 9.3, it is a very different double rifle and used very differently.

Coutada 14 - Zambezi Delta, Mozambique

Note to self: rip-stop battle dress trousers and Vietnam War era jungle boots. More about that in a bit. On 16 August, my son and I landed in Beira, Mozambique following the usual trek from the US. There we linked up with Grant Taylor and Abraham "Boet" Van Aarve of Mashambanzou Safris for a...

www.africahunting.com

But my next two mixed bag hunts were accomplished with a .375 R8. Simply a better mouse trap.

I might very well decide to do a nostalgia hunt with my .470 one of these days. But at this point, should I not I not have a perfect shot opportunity, I won't care.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

I would also add that there are a lot of pushfeed rifles on the market that don't have a bolt locking safety. This is done in the name of added "safety" but in my mind it makes it very easy to have the bolt inadvertently open while walking around in thick brush. The R8 bolt is locked at all times except when the striker is cocked.
However I have heard some stories of the "Blaser click" whereas the bolt is not fully closed on a round in the chamber, and the gun fails to ignite the primer when fired. Not sure if this situation could also be caused by tapping the bolt handle rearward when the gun is in "safe" position, but I really don't see how it could with the bolt locked into place.

I prefer my rifle not to fire if the bolt is not fully closed…

 

[BeeMaa]

So what's the real reason professional hunter and guides are not using this design more?

Is it cost?

Is it because they have no need for a switcherifle?

Is it because in the grand scheme of time it lies unproven/under proven?

My vote is cost of entry, the fact that everything about it is not commonly available and for the price of one R8 I could have two or three M70's. That hits fans in the feels, but it's reality. Two or three working rifles for the cost of one. There's just no avoiding the practicality there when "two is one and one is none" becomes applicable.

Also did anyone actually try the tapping out of battery that owns one of the R8s or did that just get shouted down as improbable because it made folks upset? Just a question because I never saw anyone directly say, "I tried it and it's not true. Didn't happen. No click." I'd be interested in seeing a video either way.

How about peer pressure as a motivator to get a CRF? You think it only exists in middle school hallways? People have been playing "keeping up with the Joneses" for a long time.

I'll see what I can do about making a video of trying to tap the R8 out of battery.

 

[One Day...]

The hard facts... (enough already!)

I own the rifles I am talking about here under, and just verified one more time by pulling them out of the safe and manipulating them. Here are the hard facts...

Can you put an uncocked Blaser R8 on safe, out of battery by "tapping the bolt? NO
The bolt is locked in place when the rifle is uncocked. Period.

Can you put an a CZ550, Mauser 98, Winchester 70, Remington 700, etc. on safe, out of battery by "tapping the bolt? It depends, but fundamentally YES
If the Mauser 98 or CZ550 does not have a bolt-mounted, firing pin-blocking safety, and if the action-mounted, sear-blocking safety does not lock the bolt, as many do not, then tapping the bolt can lift it out of battery.
Pressing the trigger will then result in the firing pin closing the bolt as it moves forward, and the pin may or may not be long enough to hit the primer before the bolt is back in full battery, and the pin may or may not have enough impact force to ignite the primer.
This is a fact, try it for yourself, ON AN EMPTY CHAMBER: lift the cocked bolt 1" and pull the trigger. You will see immediately what I am trying to explain above.

The same will happen with a CZ550, Mauser 98, Winchester 70 with a bolt-mounted, firing pin-blocking safety that is set in the middle position where it does not lock the bolt.

Factually, a R8 on safe with locked bolt is more reliable than
--- a rifle with a 2 position action-mounted, sear-blocking safety that does not lock the bolt,
--- a rifle with a 3 position bolt-mounted, firing pin-blocking safety set in the middle position that does not lock the bolt.

This is a fact. Period.

Can you put ANY rifle out of battery by tapping the bolt when it is cocked and off safe? YES.
A CZ550, Mauser 98, Winchester 70, Sako, Remington, etc. cocked and off safe is as easy to put out of battery as a R8 cocked and off safe. The bolt of ANY rifle can be moved 1" or so, remain in place out of battery, and pressing the trigger results in the dreaded click ... in the best case scenario.

If you do not believe me, try it for yourself on an empty chamber AND BEWARE: a firing pin re-assembled without a proper gauge and with a little too much protuberance from the bolt face, as commonly seen on CZ550 or Winchester 70 where the firing pin is screwed in the cocking piece and where some folks disassemble the firing pin/cocking piece while cleaning, COULD FIRE while the bolt is off battery, in the process of closing under the force of the firing pin moving forward and rotating the bolt.

This could not happen with a R8 on which is protuberance of the firing pin through the bolt face is not adjustable.

In summary...

The cocked, off safe "bolt tapping" possibility is the same on ALL rifles, and the R8 is likely safer than rifles on which the firing pin can be misadjusted, too long, by folks taking their rifle apart without knowing what they are doing.

And judging by some of the discussion on AH.com there is no shortage of folks out there who do not fully understand the mechanics of their, or others', rifles...

'nough said?

 

[One Day...]

As to "the real reason professional hunter and guides are not using this design more?"...

I personally think that the answer is a perfect case-in-point for Occam's razor (problem-solving parsimony principle in which solutions should not be multiplied or complicated beyond necessity). A basic R8 with scope mount costs at minimum $3,500 and quite often, depending on dealers and availability, over $4,000. Conversely, a CZ 550 with rings typically costs $1,000, and a Win 70 not much more.

It is my understanding that you have right there and then 80% of the answer...

Besides, the Blaser R8 shines in international air travel where multi-caliber capability is precious in a rifle that travels in a case less than 62" linear, 50 lbs. case. This is hardly a PH main concern.

Herein lays, I believe, the other 20% of the answer...

As to double vs. bolt action etc. etc.

I can only speak for myself...

I do have a Leica red dot on my Krieghoff .470 double.
I shoot it very regularly and I assure you that I am quite proficient with it, thank you very much.
I have already killed DG with my double.
I am deeply attached to the romanticism of hunting DG with a double.
I was carrying my double, all day, every day...

Yet, when the shot came, and without any conscious thought, I automatically turned to grab my scoped .375 because it was obvious in my mind, and without the need for any specific thinking, that at this moment the scoped .375 was a better choice.

I just as automatically took back my double, removed the sling, and carried it while following the elephant after the shot, because that too was obvious in my mind, and without the need for any specific thinking.

There was no in depth thinking. It was all entirely natural and obvious. That's all.

As to the PH I was hunting with, he was carrying a typical standard Mauser 98 action with magazine well lengthened for the .458 Lott cartridge, and he was quite honest in volunteering that could he afford them, he would happily use a double or a R8.

Is he representative of MOST PH? I personally think so.

Is he representative of ALL PH? Of course not...

 

[WAB]

Not sure where you are coming from on this one, seems that you are comparing a lot of fine rifles (I’ll exclude the 700, never been a fan). They all have pluses and minuses. I have, or have owned, everything you’ve listed except the R8 (not for lack of lusting!). I agree with everything you’ve said other than the implication (perhaps imagined), that the R8 is great and the rest are flawed. I would happily hunt with any of them (ex the 700!).

Note: @Red Leg has about convinced me to drink the cool-aid on the R8

 

[Tanks]

How about peer pressure as a motivator to get a CRF? You think it only exists in middle school hallways? People have been playing "keeping up with the Joneses" for a long time.
...

Come on now. The benefits of CRF actions have been extolled for decades and is one of the reasons you do not see many Remington 700 actions in Africa. That has nothing to do with the R8 not being popular.

There are just much better options in regards to cost compared to R8s in bolt guns in big bore calibers. Also, some of the calibers preferred by PHs does not seem to be available either.

 

[One Day...]

Not sure where you are coming from on this one, seems that you are comparing a lot of fine rifles (I’ll exclude the 700, never been a fan). They all have pluses and minuses. I have, or have owned, everything you’ve listed except the R8 (not for lack of lusting!). I agree with everything you’ve said other than the implication (perhaps imagined), that the R8 is great and the rest are flawed. I would happily hunt with any of them (ex the 700!).

Note: @Red Leg has about convinced me to drink the cool-aid on the R8

My point WAB, my entire point, and my only point, is that the "tapping the bolt out of battery" can happen with ANY rifle fully cocked and off safe. Hence, making it a R8 issue is pretty silly... or ignorant

Further, since the R8 has only a "safe & locked" position, while many other rifles have a "safe & unlocked" position (whether with 2 position safety or 3 position safety), it is factually possible to "tap open" the bolt of many rifles on safe but unlocked, while it is not possible with the R8. This reinforces making it a R8 issue being pretty silly... or ignorant

All rifles mentioned have their fan, and have proven themselves time and again, but they can all be made to malfunction if the bolt is partially opened when cocked and off safe

The one difference however, in this specific discussion of out of battery firing pin release, is that the R8 firing pin cannot be misadjusted by a misguided user or bubbah "gunsmith". This objectively removes one potential cause for catastrophic failure, all other rifles characteristics and qualities remaining unchanged