Big Elephant Reportedly Taken in Tanzania

I wonder if the same outcry would happen if IVORY POACHERS killed two big tuskers?

NO, it won't happen as their is no fingers to point to a specific person and no Ivory to trace back.
 
The reply was an extremely well thought out and articulated response. Even within the hunting community, Elephant and in some sense all African hunting can be a very misunderstood and controversial topic. I honestly wish Hunter Safety classes here in the states talked a little more about it in an effort to help dissuade the myths and fallacies associated with it. I grew-up in a hunting household, in a town with a lot of hunters and got the “African Hunting is just trophy hunting” view. Until my father joined me on our first safari (which he was hesitant to do at first) I think he had some misconceptions.
 
The reply was an extremely well thought out and articulated response. Even within the hunting community, Elephant and in some sense all African hunting can be a very misunderstood and controversial topic. I honestly wish Hunter Safety classes here in the states talked a little more about it in an effort to help dissuade the myths and fallacies associated with it. I grew-up in a hunting household, in a town with a lot of hunters and got the “African Hunting is just trophy hunting” view. Until my father joined me on our first safari (which he was hesitant to do at first) I think he had some misconceptions.

Well..Unless one lives or has a residence in Africa or in another country that will allow the legal import of bush meat for personal consumption, pretty much everywhere else one lives outside of Africa, Hunting in Africa is "....just trophy hunting".

Sure hunters dollars are responsible in many ways for the conservation, habitat protection, anti poaching efforts, of African wildlife. And for many economic factors in many of the African countries.

Other than croc and cape buffalo being associated to gator and to beef and bison respectively, as an "exotic" delicacy. Most people don't think, or want to consider, the rest of the Dangerous 7 as a food source. Much like getting a child to eat brussel spouts, broccoli, asparagus, etc. for the first time.

For the most part, Plains Game on the other hand, is comparable to deer, elk, moose, the American antelope, and hog/pig, which are easily accepted as a food source. Animals like hyena, jackal, wild dog can be associated to wolf, fox, and coyote as varmints thereby need to be hunted to keep their respective population in check.

Then there are the primate species, apes, baboons, chimpanzees and monkeys that are associated/ resemble/imitate humans. Now this is definitely going to start a controversy; 'Why it's intentionally murdering another human being; and to eat!? are you mad!? why that's outright cannibalism.'

I agree more and better information needs to be taught in hunter education classes. But not just in hunter ed classes, that same information also needs to be taught in science and biology classes.

IMO....The controversy stems from:

MSM Nature programs showing cute cuddly side of wildlife with some of these programs including the reality of the daily rigors wildlife, predator and prey, must do to survive. Yet even in these segments it's down played.
Because hunting and even fishing programs are not part of the MSM anti agenda MSM will not allot a reseasonable an air time slot for hunting, fishing, and general outdoor programs that contains such content.

Hunting programs besides mostly showing bs gadget commercials, and scenery. Lacks in discussing the importance of hunting, age of the animals, anti poaching efforts, population to habit sustainability, and the need for conservation programs.

Those few hunting programs that do have episodes of hunting in Africa, much like their MSM counterpart, also somewhat down play or don't show the vast damage and destruction the Dangerous 7 cause.

Hunting program hosts are their own worst enemy with all the over celebratory high fives, back slapping, oh yeah's and oh babies, jumping around, etc., etc. over killing an animal as if they single handedly won a major war. When just a couple of simple hand shakings with a couple of congratulations on winning a battle of witts would be much more productive.

Then there are those social media heroes. Self proclaimed "hunters" that give ethical hunters and outfitters a bad name and add fuel to the "antis" misinformation propaganda.

Like that’s not enough, we inside our own hunting community create more controversy over topics of long range shooting, and baiting - killing an animal, mainly whitetail deer, at a timer controlled feeder.

Baiting lion, leopard, hyena, and bear, so the hunter/guide/PH can better judge the respective animal regarding sex, age, etc. as a shooter/ no shooter and the need to bait for the more elusive animals like hogs, coyotes, and wolves to draw these animals out of their respective hiding places. Baiting is a bit less controversial.

IMPO...There is one perverbial coin.
Antis on one side and hunters on the other. Back to back. We will continue to disagree. Hunters will forever be vigilant on protecting and preserving wildlife and their habitat for future generations while the antis will continue trying to destroy our efforts.
 
Well..Unless one lives or has a residence in Africa or in another country that will allow the legal import of bush meat for personal consumption, pretty much everywhere else one lives outside of Africa, Hunting in Africa is "....just trophy hunting".

Sure hunters dollars are responsible in many ways for the conservation, habitat protection, anti poaching efforts, of African wildlife. And for many economic factors in many of the African countries.

Other than croc and cape buffalo being associated to gator and to beef and bison respectively, as an "exotic" delicacy. Most people don't think, or want to consider, the rest of the Dangerous 7 as a food source. Much like getting a child to eat brussel spouts, broccoli, asparagus, etc. for the first time.

For the most part, Plains Game on the other hand, is comparable to deer, elk, moose, the American antelope, and hog/pig, which are easily accepted as a food source. Animals like hyena, jackal, wild dog can be associated to wolf, fox, and coyote as varmints thereby need to be hunted to keep their respective population in check.

Then there are the primate species, apes, baboons, chimpanzees and monkeys that are associated/ resemble/imitate humans. Now this is definitely going to start a controversy; 'Why it's intentionally murdering another human being; and to eat!? are you mad!? why that's outright cannibalism.'

I agree more and better information needs to be taught in hunter education classes. But not just in hunter ed classes, that same information also needs to be taught in science and biology classes.

IMO....The controversy stems from:

MSM Nature programs showing cute cuddly side of wildlife with some of these programs including the reality of the daily rigors wildlife, predator and prey, must do to survive. Yet even in these segments it's down played.
Because hunting and even fishing programs are not part of the MSM anti agenda MSM will not allot a reseasonable an air time slot for hunting, fishing, and general outdoor programs that contains such content.

Hunting programs besides mostly showing bs gadget commercials, and scenery. Lacks in discussing the importance of hunting, age of the animals, anti poaching efforts, population to habit sustainability, and the need for conservation programs.

Those few hunting programs that do have episodes of hunting in Africa, much like their MSM counterpart, also somewhat down play or don't show the vast damage and destruction the Dangerous 7 cause.

Hunting program hosts are their own worst enemy with all the over celebratory high fives, back slapping, oh yeah's and oh babies, jumping around, etc., etc. over killing an animal as if they single handedly won a major war. When just a couple of simple hand shakings with a couple of congratulations on winning a battle of witts would be much more productive.

Then there are those social media heroes. Self proclaimed "hunters" that give ethical hunters and outfitters a bad name and add fuel to the "antis" misinformation propaganda.

Like that’s not enough, we inside our own hunting community create more controversy over topics of long range shooting, and baiting - killing an animal, mainly whitetail deer, at a timer controlled feeder.

Baiting lion, leopard, hyena, and bear, so the hunter/guide/PH can better judge the respective animal regarding sex, age, etc. as a shooter/ no shooter and the need to bait for the more elusive animals like hogs, coyotes, and wolves to draw these animals out of their respective hiding places. Baiting is a bit less controversial.

IMPO...There is one perverbial coin.
Antis on one side and hunters on the other. Back to back. We will continue to disagree. Hunters will forever be vigilant on protecting and preserving wildlife and their habitat for future generations while the antis will continue trying to destroy our efforts.
I agree with much of what you said. My trophy hunting comment was a dumbed down over simplified generation. I think within our own hunting ranks there are a lot of people who don’t understand how the meat gets utilized. Who think Africa is just for the rich. Who don’t understand the African model of hunting money being used for conservation. I feel teaching this within Hunter Education would help a bit in our own ranks and be an easier change. The MSM is definitely the biggest hurdle and what’s most responsible for that portrayal (even to hunters) and that’s a bigger hurdle to tackle.

Lots of people (myself included) who grew-up in states where baiting is illegal, who looked down on high fences, using dogs, what have you. As I got older, moved around a bit, got exposed to other regions and states hunting traditions a lot of those notions that were subconsciously taught to me went out the window. I think that’s part of why I can’t pick a favorite hunt, and I look forward to the next hunt, the next place, the next species more than anything. If we as hunters did a better job of educating the next generation of hunters about those things we wouldn’t see as much in fighting. There wouldn’t be posts about bow hunting being unethical, or crossbows, predator hunting, high fences, exotics, etc and this to me is the biggest threat because like you said there will always be antis and it’ll always but us vs them but we keep giving them the places and topics to chisel away.
 

This is the outfitters response to emails and articles written to him/about the two bulls hunted legally in Tanzania

Might be some information people find useful. Like many have said…. Oh so complicated
Regarding this big tusker, a person (who shall remain anonymous but DOES support well managed hunting) contacted me to set the record straight regarding this big tusker. The elephants that wonder into Tanzania from Amboseli National Park are habituated to humans. Hunters can literally drive up to them and shoot them, as they most likely were born in Amboseli National Park which holds the most studied Elephants on the continent,and been exposed to photographic tourism since birth. This is NOT fair chase and does not live up to the standards of 99% of the hunters that I know. While what these hunters and outfitters did may have been legal… it was not ethical (in my opinion and that of many others).

Here is the back story according to my boots-on-the-ground source. When 3 big tuckers from Ambolisi Park were killed in Tanzania in the mid 1990’s, Tanzania and Kenya came to an agreement to not hunt within 100 kilometers of the park because those elephants are habituated to humans. The outfitterS who held that concession for nearly 40 years was highly ethical and supported that agreement. Then a year ago, the new outfitter was awarded the concession. Since then, these large tuskers are being sold for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Apparently, the agreement between Tanzania and Kenya cannot be found. So technically, they are within their rights.

BUT, what are they doing to the hunting world? These unethical killings are gasoline for the anti-hunting world. If hunting is banned, millions and millions of acres of habitat will be lost, wildlife will die, and the outfitters and rural people of Africa will suffer.

Also according to my source, there is absolutely no reason to burn the elephant carcasses other than to hide evidence and to stop identification that the Elephant hales from Amboseli National Park. While the Maasai do not eat elephant, they have not poisoned any carcases of domestic stock or wildlife for decades in order to kill predators, In addition, there are thousands of protein hungry non Massai within half an hours drive of the hunting area,

From my understanding, these new outfitters are very powerful people and difficult to go up against and there is a lot at risk for anyone who challenges this,

Note. The person who called me from Tanzania has obtained pictures of the burnt elephant remains and requests to the hunters concerned to send pictures of the trophies go unanswered.
 
Amboseli Trust indicates the Bull was Gilgil, a 35 year old bull known to be of the Amboseli group. The picture they showed did not look anywhere near 100 lb to me. I did a Google search trying to find a picture/mention of the Bull earlier than 2023 and could not find anything.

I don’t know how they would have identified it without really good pics of tusks/ears/feet, etc.
 
Please educate me. I am not an elephant expert.

How are they habituated?

Are they handled and touched, fed? Nursed as babies ?

Or are they merely standing while people drive by and take pictures.


I think down there it’s just the frequent presence of people/cars etc. places like the sheldrick wildlife trust do hand feed/raise elephant but reintegrating them into the wild is very tricky once dependent.

My understanding of Amboseli/Tsavo etc now is it’s simply a well-patrolled space that allows these elephant room to roam. That area is on my list to visit next time in Kenya - there are some very big bulls down there.
 
I’ve been in Tsavo as a tourist and the elephants I observed. Their body language showed they acted like elephants in Kruger.

They would posture with ears forward, trucks held aggressively. I never got the impression that I could walk up and pet any of them.
 
Regarding this big tusker, a person (who shall remain anonymous but DOES support well managed hunting) contacted me to set the record straight regarding this big tusker. The elephants that wonder into Tanzania from Amboseli National Park are habituated to humans. Hunters can literally drive up to them and shoot them, as they most likely were born in Amboseli National Park which holds the most studied Elephants on the continent,and been exposed to photographic tourism since birth. This is NOT fair chase and does not live up to the standards of 99% of the hunters that I know. While what these hunters and outfitters did may have been legal… it was not ethical (in my opinion and that of many others).

Here is the back story according to my boots-on-the-ground source. When 3 big tuckers from Ambolisi Park were killed in Tanzania in the mid 1990’s, Tanzania and Kenya came to an agreement to not hunt within 100 kilometers of the park because those elephants are habituated to humans. The outfitterS who held that concession for nearly 40 years was highly ethical and supported that agreement. Then a year ago, the new outfitter was awarded the concession. Since then, these large tuskers are being sold for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Apparently, the agreement between Tanzania and Kenya cannot be found. So technically, they are within their rights.

BUT, what are they doing to the hunting world? These unethical killings are gasoline for the anti-hunting world. If hunting is banned, millions and millions of acres of habitat will be lost, wildlife will die, and the outfitters and rural people of Africa will suffer.

Also according to my source, there is absolutely no reason to burn the elephant carcasses other than to hide evidence and to stop identification that the Elephant hales from Amboseli National Park. While the Maasai do not eat elephant, they have not poisoned any carcases of domestic stock or wildlife for decades in order to kill predators, In addition, there are thousands of protein hungry non Massai within half an hours drive of the hunting area,

From my understanding, these new outfitters are very powerful people and difficult to go up against and there is a lot at risk for anyone who challenges this,

Note. The person who called me from Tanzania has obtained pictures of the burnt elephant remains and requests to the hunters concerned to send pictures of the trophies go unanswered.

I understood that the agreement had expired. Perhaps the old concession holder just continued to honor the agreement and the new one is not. I also understand that Kenya and Tanzania are working to restore that agreement. Hopefully soon. This certainly removes one of the outfitters that I was looking at. At least one of hunters was American. Good luck ever getting that Ivory into the USA.

I was under the impression that burning was SOP in that area.

I have also read where they are now collaring the Big tuskers in Amboseli.
 
I’ve hunted Longido with Michel, albeit not for elephant. I did see elephant there, and they didn’t seem anymore habituated to people than those I’ve seen in the Caprivi, down south in Tanzania or elsewhere. I know Michel to be an articulate, grounded, committed, steadfast proponent of ethical conservation. Without hunting, I’m afraid Longido would be nothing but goats……

If Kenya thinks their elephants are pets, maybe they should think about fencing Amboseli.
 
I’ve hunted Longido with Michel, albeit not for elephant. I did see elephant there, and they didn’t seem anymore habituated to people than those I’ve seen in the Caprivi, down south in Tanzania or elsewhere. I know Michel to be an articulate, grounded, committed, steadfast proponent of ethical conservation. Without hunting, I’m afraid Longido would be nothing but goats……

If Kenya thinks their elephants are pets, maybe they should think about fencing Amboseli.
He's still on my list.
 
How are other species doing in Kenya where they have too many elephants now. Is the habitat being destroyed, trees pushed over, eliminating shade and browse, soil erosion and less food is the new norm. Like Kruger.

Too many elephants and all other animals are paying a price.
 
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I’ve hunted Longido with Michel, albeit not for elephant. I did see elephant there, and they didn’t seem anymore habituated to people than those I’ve seen in the Caprivi, down south in Tanzania or elsewhere. I know Michel to be an articulate, grounded, committed, steadfast proponent of ethical conservation. Without hunting, I’m afraid Longido would be nothing but goats……

If Kenya thinks their elephants are pets, maybe they should think about fencing Amboseli.
Exactly. The Bunny Hugging do gooders in Kenya have made a petting Zoo of wildlife, but now blame other people and other Countries for a situation of their creation.
 
Regarding this big tusker, a person (who shall remain anonymous but DOES support well managed hunting) contacted me to set the record straight regarding this big tusker. The elephants that wonder into Tanzania from Amboseli National Park are habituated to humans. Hunters can literally drive up to them and shoot them, as they most likely were born in Amboseli National Park which holds the most studied Elephants on the continent,and been exposed to photographic tourism since birth. This is NOT fair chase and does not live up to the standards of 99% of the hunters that I know. While what these hunters and outfitters did may have been legal… it was not ethical (in my opinion and that of many others).

Here is the back story according to my boots-on-the-ground source. When 3 big tuckers from Ambolisi Park were killed in Tanzania in the mid 1990’s, Tanzania and Kenya came to an agreement to not hunt within 100 kilometers of the park because those elephants are habituated to humans. The outfitterS who held that concession for nearly 40 years was highly ethical and supported that agreement. Then a year ago, the new outfitter was awarded the concession. Since then, these large tuskers are being sold for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Apparently, the agreement between Tanzania and Kenya cannot be found. So technically, they are within their rights.

BUT, what are they doing to the hunting world? These unethical killings are gasoline for the anti-hunting world. If hunting is banned, millions and millions of acres of habitat will be lost, wildlife will die, and the outfitters and rural people of Africa will suffer.

Also according to my source, there is absolutely no reason to burn the elephant carcasses other than to hide evidence and to stop identification that the Elephant hales from Amboseli National Park. While the Maasai do not eat elephant, they have not poisoned any carcases of domestic stock or wildlife for decades in order to kill predators, In addition, there are thousands of protein hungry non Massai within half an hours drive of the hunting area,

From my understanding, these new outfitters are very powerful people and difficult to go up against and there is a lot at risk for anyone who challenges this,

Note. The person who called me from Tanzania has obtained pictures of the burnt elephant remains and requests to the hunters concerned to send pictures of the trophies go unanswered.
It seems me that an agreement like that is not good for conservation in the long run and has to have negative impact on the local ecosystem and biodiversity. Seems like another Kruger in the making.
 
Exactly. The Bunny Hugging do gooders in Kenya have made a petting Zoo of wildlife, but now blame other people and other Countries for a situation of their creation.
This is the truth. Sorry @Sue Tidwell but people shouldn’t be habituating elephants in Kenya in the first place. That’s not in the best interests of wildlife or wildlife conservation.
 
I understood that the agreement had expired. Perhaps the old concession holder just continued to honor the agreement and the new one is not. I also understand that Kenya and Tanzania are working to restore that agreement. Hopefully soon. This certainly removes one of the outfitters that I was looking at. At least one of hunters was American. Good luck ever getting that Ivory into the USA.

I was under the impression that burning was SOP in that area.

I have also read where they are now collaring the Big tuskers in Amboseli.
Collaring elephants has become a way for the antis to stop hunting.

In addition, what’s happening in national parks in Africa and the USA is not natural and not real nature. Humans and hunting are part of the ecosystem. We didn’t arrive here from outer space. Wilderness is the answer, not national parks.

There will be no problem getting the ivory into the USA if the operator is using some of the money for conservation.
 
Hunting areas that border national parks are an important buffer to keep out cattle grazing, poaching, human settlements and intensive agriculture. There are hunting areas bordering parks throughout the African countries and the same in the USA. If the problem in this case is that some people in Kenya have habituated these elephants to people, that’s on them and not proper wildlife management.
 
Thanks, instead of a dislike why not just a correction response? This ain’t Facebook. As said, I think I read about what I posted here, someone saying the genetics are pretty much gone.

Genetics are never lost nor will they be "....ever pretty much gone." Certain DNA and/ or RNA may "skip" a generation, none the less the genetics are still and will always be there as long as one parent remains alive to pass on that strain of DNA and/ or RNA.

The real problems are:

1. Allowing elephants to grow old, into their 40's and 50's years old before being hunted.

2. Only allow hunting of 40 to 50 year old elephants.

3. Hunters legaling killing young 30 to 40, year old elephants that hold the genetics of potential 100+ pound tusk elephants at 30, 40, 50, pounds.

4. Loss of habitat.

5. Human - elephant conflict.

6. Natural predation, disease, birth defects, starvation, etc.

7. Environmental impact; ie. droughts, floods, etc.

8. Of course ivory poachers and their cohorts.

Etc., etc., etc,......blah, blah, blah....

For simple mathematic, hypothetically speaking, if only 2 in 10, 1 male and 1 female, can survive to maximum age of reproduction, during their lifespan they successfully reproduce to their maximum birth rate, and survive to be 40 to 50 years old only 2 in 10 hunters will be able to kill 100+ pound tusk elephants.

Last stats I can recollect the elephant population was estimated to be around 200,000+. Only something like 20,000 to 30,000 elephants are legally hunted per year with an unknown number poached per year.

Big tuskers are out there, just not where hunters are or where the big tuskers assumed hunters were not suppose to be there, because hunters have never been there before.
 
@Ridge Runner great response, sorry to make this one so short but I’m curious now.. does anyone have a growth chart for age-tusk size? That would be interesting to see the graph for. Like how fecundity in some fish increases exponentially with length etc.
Be interesting.
 

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