Assuming you don't reload, what's the best caliber to go with on a double rifle today?

Northern Shooter, the reality is. When you show up in camp with a brand new $50k double. Do you really think any one in camp cares.

The PH certainly won’t. He would rather see you show up with a $1200 iron sighted magazine rifle with no blueing left on it, that you can shoot.

Or even a cheap worn in double that you can shoot.
that’s what would get you a Wow! In Africa

Watch some African hunting shows and you will see what the Professional hunters care about.
 
With the assumption that you will be exclusively relying on factory ammo, what caliber choice would you go with today for a double rifle?

I know many people reccomend 450/400 as a sweet spot for a double rifle due to the lack of recoil, however here in Canada factory ammo seems impossible to find.

It looks like it really comes down to either 470 or 500 Nitro Express based on what I'm seeing in stock.

Ammo seems to be equally availible for these two and they are priced about the same.

Any others to consider or should I just focus on one of the above?
.450/400 is a dream to shoot. Hornady runs ammo every year you just have to watch for it. I use Safari Arms in NY to custom load for me. I've had excellent results with them.
 
As John Taylor observed the 450/400 is one of the most flexible calibers out there second only to the 375 H&H. He often include two in his battery.

Hornady has drastically cut back it's offerings and support for the "classic" cartridges. Their new catalog doesn't even list 458WM brass.

As many have observed here the answer is to handload. Once you begin to handload four things happen:

1) You greatly increase you ability to keep the older classics firing.

2) You greatly increase the usefulness and accuracy of all your guns.

3) You decrease costs, especially once you have a good supply of brass.

4) A whole new world opens up to you.
 
.450/400 is a dream to shoot. Hornady runs ammo every year you just have to watch for it. I use Safari Arms in NY to custom load for me. I've had excellent results with them.
I've used John at Safari Arms a few times. Great guy.
 
So I'm trying to piece these all together and where they stack up against each other. In terms of price and I'm assuming corresponding build quality, does it go something like this?

Baikal ($1000?)
Sabattis (under $10,000)
Rizinni (under $10,000)
Chapuis ($10,000-$15,000?)
VC $($10,000-$15,000?)
Merkel ($10,000-$15,000?)
Krieghoffs ($15,000-$20,000?)
Heym ($20,000+)
 
Starting at Chapuis on your list. You can take approximately $2000 off each of your dollar amounts.
 
Already own one but that's not exactly the type of cartridge in picturing when I think of a double rifle. I feel like it should end in Nitro Express.
If I wanted a double rifle (and I don't), I think I'd consider 45-70. That cartridge can be souped up in the right rifle and brass & ammo is fairly abundant (= relatively cheap). And it's surprisingly versatile. I once skinned a muley buck my buddy shot with 45-70 Marlin. It didn't mess that buck up at all. Big hole in, big hole out, and almost no bloodshot.
 
If I wanted a double rifle (and I don't), I think I'd consider 45-70. That cartridge can be souped up in the right rifle and brass & ammo is fairly abundant (= relatively cheap). And it's surprisingly versatile. I once skinned a muley buck my buddy shot with 45-70 Marlin. It didn't mess that buck up at all. Big hole in, big hole out, and almost no bloodshot.
The OP is not looking to soup up a load, he’s asking for and “off the shelf” ammo option for a double rifle cartridge.

The ballistics of the 45-70 are anemic at best, even compared to the 375H&H. No disrespect to the 45-70 crowd. I’m not saying that DG hasn’t been taken with the 45-70 and other lever action cartridges, but shot selection is more limited because of the ballistics.

Choosing a double rifle cartridge that is that is more in line with hunting DG and more widely available in African hunting camps would be a wise decision.
 
So it sounds like Heyms are in the ballpark of $20,000, Merkel's and Krieghoffs around $15,000.

Are there any options for $10,000? Chapuis? VC?

I know you can find affordable Baikals and Sabattis but I'm not interested in those.
Merkel 140’s $10-$13k, Merkel 160’s $19-$22k
 


I understand that many here are quite well off and live in the world of $50,000+ firearms, I admire them for that and their accomplishments but it's not realistic for many of us, myself included.

Currently all my "nice" bolt guns are in the $2,000-$3,000 range. My most expensive firearm is a $4,000 black rifle so anything $10,000+ seems like a luxury item.

I realize that 10k is just scraping the bottom of fine double rifles where the sky is the limit.

I'm guessing I'll have to spend closer to 20k to find a nice German double.

So far I've been eyeing:

1. Merkel 140AE - 470NE - $12,500
2. Merkel 160AE - 470NE - $15,000
3. Heym 88B - 500NE - $17,000
good pricing on all 3 above
 
500 NE and a second barrel set in 500/416 NE(it also regulates with a 300gr bullet at 75% rule) or 450/400 NE and a 20ga shotgun barrel set for all.

470 NE is also very popular and ammo should be more availible than the othe NE
 
I will say this..if elephant is not your quarry..or if you think maybe one ele in your hunting career..go for a 450/400 3" ...ammo/reloading components available..alternatively a .470 for the same reason..if you can manage the added recoil...try them if possible and make your choice..

The 500/416 is more or less a dead duck..fading away..
 
I will say this..if elephant is not your quarry..or if you think maybe one ele in your hunting career..go for a 450/400 3" ...ammo/reloading components available..alternatively a .470 for the same reason..if you can manage the added recoil...try them if possible and make your choice..

The 500/416 is more or less a dead duck..fading away..
I'll more than likely go with the 470NE.
My interest in the 500NE was more for the novelty and collecting purposes, wanting a caliber that was a significant step up from 458WM rather than something that I would functionally use as intended (elephant).

Here in Canada , 470 ammo appears to be far more common than 450/400, although it costs about $100 more per box.
 
I'll more than likely go with the 470NE.
My interest in the 500NE was more for the novelty and collecting purposes, wanting a caliber that was a significant step up from 458WM rather than something that I would functionally use as intended (elephant).

Here in Canada , 470 ammo appears to be far more common than 450/400, although it costs about $100 more per box.
Does 500 Nitro even stay under the Trudeau govt's new muzzle energy limit?

Edit: Just barely, according to Wikipedia.
 
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I happened across a Ken Owen Sabatti In .470ne; and couldn’t be happier with it.

Although it did come with load data and I have been loading for years.

Having said that I would still vote .470 for factory ammo, gunbroker has multiple listings for Hornady .470ne

Ken Owen did load development for my rifle and it regulates with both IMR3031 hand loads and Hornady factory as well.
 
Does 500 Nitro even stay under the Trudeau govt's new muzzle energy limit?

Edit: Just barely, according to Wikipedia.
Yup, 10,000J is the limit so the 500NE is good (8,000J), so is the 577NE (9.500J).

The 600NE, 700NE, 460 Weatherby among others got the ban hammer.
 
I'll more than likely go with the 470NE.
My interest in the 500NE was more for the novelty and collecting purposes, wanting a caliber that was a significant step up from 458WM rather than something that I would functionally use as intended (elephant).

Here in Canada , 470 ammo appears to be far more common than 450/400, although it costs about $100 more per box.
NS,

I've been following your thread because 5 years ago I was in a situation similar to yours, although you sound like you have more hunting experience than I did.

I wanted to go hunting in Africa, and I wanted to do it with a double. My only previous hunting experience was limited to the occasional pheasant, a few rabbits I shot as a kid, and a deer I hit with my truck.

To my good fortune, I found my way to Chris Sells of Heym USA and he graciously shared his knowledge and understanding of doubles. After answering his questions I purchased a 450/400, and I have absolutely no complaints. (I now own 6 Heyms)

If I may take the liberty of making a few observations:

You seem to have a lot of variables in your selection criteria - some of which appear to be in conflict.

My suggestion would be to determine which is most limiting and use that to resolve some of the others.

Your initial post was basing caliber choice on availability of factory ammo. I believe that has been put to rest - shoot hand loads - by any of the sources mentioned.

I would think caliber choice would be dictated by what you plan to hunt - you listed elk to cape buffalo and possibly (eventually an elephant). I know nothing of elk - but I have shot 3 elephants and 6 cape buffalo. My take, based on hunting reports, is - elk are typically taken at long distances, much longer than DG in Africa - especially with a double. My farthest shot on a cape was about 40 yds - my closest, a little over 10 yds. Likewise for elephant, 35 yds for the longest - 21 FEET for the closest.

While I shot a zebra at 75 yds with that 450/400, I don't see that happening often, and I don't see a shot at any DG - especially an elephant exceeding 35 yds.

I must point out - my 450/400 is strictly iron sights, same for the 500NE. I do know some guys put scopes on their doubles but I don't know if the Heyms are set up for it.

More than once you describe your double as being a conversation piece in your collection; with the caveat it could be used on North America's biggest game and eventually Africa. So, are you referencing bear, moose, bison, in addition to elk?

There are a lot of very experienced hunters on this forum who could weigh in on this: list the animals you intend to hunt, their typical ranges, and compare the ballistics of those 3 calibers.

Next question, if the rifle is capable of making longer shots - are you?

There is a post by rookhawk early on in this thread which brings up regulation and custom loaded ammo.
Do you intend to put a scope or red dot on it, or shoot it open sights? For me, personally - I would not put a scope on either of my doubles, (or any double) - I'd use a different rifle.
Yes, I know there are a lot of guys who do and hopefully will chime in - because it might help you solve one of your criteria by adding some range, but might also limit actual rifle choices to those which can handle scopes.

I've waited until last to broach this subject - cost:

Good doubles aren't cheap and cheap doubles aren't good.

You brought up the cost of ammo a couple times. Start there, availability for those 3 calibers is solved by custom loads. That also resolves accuracy and consistency issues.

If you're trying to solve that piece of the puzzle with factory ammo - don't, you won't like the result.

Define your shooting criteria, and be realistic - I doubt any PH will let you take a 150 yd shot an elephant, even though it might be as close as you can get to an elk.

Each of those 3 calibers will kill any of the game you've mentioned - provided you hit them in right spot. Shot placement trumps caliber, a 500NE in a leg vs a 450/400 in the brain.

If, cost is the limiting factor - set that as your limit and find the rifle which checks as many of the boxes you've set.

It would help if you eliminate some of the non-essential ones - wow and conversation piece, and accept the important ones - custom ammo.

Go shoot some examples of as many as you can, and I guarantee you will eliminate some choices.

There is a commonality in most of the responses - they tend to be positive with respect to caliber. Each of those hunters has found what works for them. You could sit and argue caliber for days, but in the end - the answer lies in your success.

Don't worry about impressing others with your choice, choose what works best for you.
 

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May I ask you to give me your comments; do I forget something ? are my choices worthy ? Thank you in advance
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Hi Jay,

Hope you're well.

I'm headed your way in January.

Attending SHOT Show has been a long time bucket list item for me.

Finally made it happen and I'm headed to Vegas.

I know you're some distance from Vegas - but would be keen to catch up if it works out.

Have a good one.

Mark
 
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