Assuming you don't reload, what's the best caliber to go with on a double rifle today?

I would not buy another DR that the owner can not demonstrate real world groups and test targets. From ammo they fired from the rifle.

A factory test target that says Hornady 400 grains is almost worthless.

Notice how I said (I) would not.

That doesn’t mean others haven’t found rifles that shot to the test target. Like a Blaser will

Or I would ask the manufacturer, if the test
target is from a rifle laying in a machine or sled of some kind.
 
Bad news if true, Hornady seem to be some of the common producers of DG cartridges here. I think I've only ever seen 470 in Hornady and Federal.
My post on the possible discontinuation. Was from someone else’s post. I hope it is not true. I was at Safari outdoors in RSA two weeks ago no .470 or .450-.400 Hornady and no idea if and when.
 
Your question is based on false assumptions, unless you are buying a double rifle you intend to throw away in the near future.

ALL double rifle calibers eventually require handloading. Sooner or later, the manufacturer of loaded ammunition that your given rifle was regulated to at the factory changes their recipe. It could be due to supply chain, or changing of the chemical plant that makes their powder, or it could be they change from woodleigh to Hornady bullets due to availability, or it could be they want to offer a different bullet (e.g. Barnes) and discontinue your load.

Federal alone has changed their factory load recipes 3x in 25 years.

So regardless of caliber, you are handloading, or someone is handloading for you.

So the real question is which caliber is the easiest to get components for and is generally the simplest to build regulating loads for with the most choices? Answer: 470NE and 500NE.
Just my opinion, but I think this is the best advice posted on this thread.

I've shot all 3 (and more) of the calibers you've mentioned. I own a Heym 450-400 Double, and have a 500NE double on the way. Personally I find the 450/400 and 500NE recoil to be quite manageable, more of a push, whereas the 470s I have shot have more of a barrel rise.

Rookhawk makes a very valid point regarding factory vs handloads. Precise shooting requires precise ammo. Go shoot 4 or 5 different manufacturer's ammo of the same caliber and you'll get 4 or 5 different groups.

The only time I shoot factory ammo in my Big Game rifles is if I need more brass.

Find a custom ammo guy - I use Safari Arms, but I'm sure the guys on this forum can give you a list of others.

Pick your caliber and they will send you a box or 2 of "test ammo", it will contain examples of the different powder and bullet types you have selected, the primers will be different colors or there will some other markings to differentiate them. They will provide instructions, but basically - go to the range, shoot groups of however many different bullets you have, and see which your gun "likes".

Stock up on the custom ammo and go have fun.

Choice Ammunition is a good source for ammo as well. They are a small factory with very close tolerances, and have a large selection of calibers.
 
If you do not reload, it will be extremely unlikely that you will find an off the shelf commercial load that will make you happy. I did with my .470 five or six years ago, and I promptly purchase 240 rounds of the same lot. That will be enough to see me through with that rifle.

I shipped my Blaser S2 to Lance Hendershot https://hendershots.net/ who worked up .375, 500/416, and 30 06 loads for it. He maintains the records of those loads and forty more rounds are a phone call and few weeks wait. I have no idea if someone offers a similar service in Canada.
 
The classic double calibers have been mentioned-

But the correct answer is 375 H&H! No reason you can’t get a double rifle in this super available chambering! It will also work on everything Africa if you want it to. And there will always be factory support of many different loads.
 
As someone who is very new to double rifles, I'm having difficulty finding info regarding how all these makes compare price and quality wise.

Can someone please layout the approximate price range of new production doubles from Heym, Merkel, Krieghoffs, Chapuis and Verney Carron?

I'm in Canada but USD would also help to put things into perspective.

I'm guessing Heym is the priciest (and most desirable from what I've been reading) and one of the French offerings is the most affordable?
 
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as a start, Ralf Martini has 2 Heym on Sale, one brand new, basic, the other used/near new , more fancy


the 89b is left handed.

this give you an idea of Canadian prices.

He also had a 416Rigby for a while, if it were just for the classic caliber.
 
My post on the possible discontinuation. Was from someone else’s post. I hope it is not true. I was at Safari outdoors in RSA two weeks ago no .470 or .450-.400 Hornady and no idea if and when.
Lon next time you’re down South try Wildman in Centurion they have saved the day a few times..
 
as a start, Ralf Martini has 2 Heym on Sale, one brand new, basic, the other used/near new , more fancy


the 89b is left handed.

this give you an idea of Canadian prices.

He also had a 416Rigby for a while, if it were just for the classic caliber.
I've been following Ralf Martinis website like a kid in a candy shop. At $17,000-$23,000 USD that's $23,000-$31,000 CDN for lightly used examples.

Here I'm hoping to find one much closer to $10,000 CDN, I guess that won't be a Heym.

Are the Merkel's and Krieghoffs cheaper?
 
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The classic double calibers have been mentioned-

But the correct answer is 375 H&H! No reason you can’t get a double rifle in this super available chambering! It will also work on everything Africa if you want it to. And there will always be factory support of many different loads.

Respectfully (I’m not attacking you, just your opinion), this is the single worst bit of advice I could possibly design for the topic at hand.

375HH is the most bastardized, hot rodded, altered safari cartridge in history. From the circa 1910-1911 original load with stranded cordite (extinct), to the 1926 ICI/Kynoch load data, to its modern reproduction using IMR3031, things have changed tremendously. Since it isn’t a double rifle cartridge (It’s for magazine rifles), the factories give ZERO F’s about changing its load properties all the time while maintaining pressure and velocity from a test barrel, that means the regulation from year to year can change wildly as they swap powders at same externally observable performances.

If you had said 375 Flanged, while still a problem custom loading, it would be a far, far less severe problem.

375HH has had its velocity changed (because it’s a magazine rifle round and it can) numerous times. From the original 2400fps to the present 2650fps, running through the 235gr softs, to the 250s, 260s, 270s, and the modern 300s and super-modern 350s, it is a proverbial nightmare to handload for a double rifle due to the arbitrary variables that do not exist in a traditional Nitro Expressed rim caliber that honors the Kynoch/ICI specs, approximately.

Add to that, many newer 375HH are regulated with copper ammo like Barnes. This is a real problem in double rifles, because they are volumetrically bigger bullets, but they weigh 78% as much. That means if you try lead, the equal weight bullets don’t regulate the same, and if you go with a 300gr lead to give you the same dimensions as a 270gr copper, you cannot safely achieve regulating velocity without over-pressure issues.

Don’t do it, don’t do it, don’t do it. It’s the hardest cartridge to regulate in a double rifle and the least likely to ”just work” if you buy 30 different brands and models of factory ammo hoping for a lucky win.
 
I've been following Ralf Martinis website like a kid in a candy shop. At $17,000-$23,000 USD that's $23,000-$31,000 CDN for lightly used examples.

Here I'm hoping to find one much closer to $10,000 CDN, I guess that won't be a Heym.

Are the Merkel's and Krieghoffs cheaper?
They were before 2020. I could point to several K-guns and Merkels that were 7/8k then. Now, not so much. If you’re patient and come across the right seller, you might be able to pull one for that price again. But it may require some work..
 
I've been following Ralf Martinis website like a kid in a candy shop. At $17,000-$23,000 USD that's $23,000-$31,000 CDN for lightly used examples.

Here I'm hoping to find one much closer to $10,000 CDN, I guess that won't be a Heym.

Are the Merkel's and Krieghoffs cheaper?

Yes they are. But comparing a Merkel to a Heym is comparing a Ford Festiva to a 7-Series BMW. Spend a bit more, while looking for a bargain, get the Heym. I’ve seen them at $15-$16 CAD.
 
Yes they are. But comparing a Merkel to a Heym is comparing a Ford Festiva to a 7-Series BMW. Spend a bit more, while looking for a bargain, get the Heym. I’ve seen them at $15-$16 CAD.
Interesting, I didn't know the gap between the two was so vast. Where does Krieghoff fall, inbetween the two?
 
Interesting, I didn't know the gap between the two was so vast. Where does Krieghoff fall, inbetween the two?


A small handful of people like Krieghoffs. The engraving is childish and very cartoon like, the safety is very safe, and requires a tremendous force to operate since it is actually a cocker. I've seen people try to get $15,000+ on this site and elsewhere for krieghoffs and they do not sell. I've passed on them at $7500 before.

I would not take 4 K-guns or 8 merkels for one heym.

I'm not saying they are both terrible guns, I'm just saying they are not in the same stratosphere, nor do they have strong demand, nor do they have strong resale. Heym's have all of that.
 
Now that we are on the fun topic of comparing double rifle makers to car manufacturers, I would suggest the following:

In no particular order:
Chapuis = DS (luxury Citroën)
Verney Carron = PGO
Merkel = Volkswagen
Krieghoff = Mercedes
Heym = Porsche
H&H = Rolls Royce
Westley Richards = Lamborghini
Rigby = Ferrari

Let the flaming begin! :)
 
Now that we are on the fun topic of comparing double rifle makers to car manufacturers, I would suggest the following:

In no particular order:
Chapuis = DS (luxury Citroën)
Verney Carron = PGO
Merkel = Volkswagen
Krieghoff = Mercedes
Heym = Porsche
H&H = Rolls Royce
Westley Richards = Lamborghini
Rigby = Ferrari

Let the flaming begin! :)
Ah damn.

I couldn't afford the bottom 4, wouldn't want to own the first 3 due to reliability and wouldn't own #4 out of warranty.

Where's the Chevy of Double Rifles? Lol
 
Agreed...

...and 458LOTT ballistics are right at the 470NE and has the ability to use 458WM cartridges if the LOTT isn't available.

If you buy a double rifle, you will most likely end up having to hand load (or have someone work loads up) to get the barrels to regulate properly. It's not very common to find a double that regulates properly out of the box with factory ammo...even though that's what the manufacturers tell you.

Seemed to work fine in the old days....nobody worried about all this stuff.....so in this day and age of more precise tolerances I really don't see a problem.....but then I could be wrong ..you know as a disclaimer :E Celebrate: :D Beers:

And 458 lott is lott faster than 470 is.... ;)
 
Now that we are on the fun topic of comparing double rifle makers to car manufacturers, I would suggest the following:

In no particular order:
Chapuis = DS (luxury Citroën)
Verney Carron = PGO
Merkel = Volkswagen
Krieghoff = Mercedes
Heym = Porsche
H&H = Rolls Royce
Westley Richards = Lamborghini
Rigby = Ferrari

Let the flaming begin! :)

Merkel and Krieghoff should be far lower on that list, H&H too.

Dickson - Koenigsegg
Hartman & Weiss - Pagani
Purdey - Bugatti
Boss - McLaren
Butch Searcy - Buick
Sabatti - Saturn
Jeffery - Aston Martin
Joseph Manton - Dussenburg
Joseph Lang - Cord
Stephen Grant - Shelby
Charles Lancaster - Jaguar
 

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