Assuming you don't reload, what's the best caliber to go with on a double rifle today?

[spike.t]

Now that we are on the fun topic of comparing double rifle makers to car manufacturers, I would suggest the following:

In no particular order:
Chapuis = DS (luxury Citroën)
Verney Carron = PGO
Merkel = Volkswagen
Krieghoff = Mercedes
Heym = Porsche
H&H = Rolls Royce
Westley Richards = Lamborghini
Rigby = Ferrari

Let the flaming begin!

Nah think you way off in lot of those....but as finding off Christmas lunch with my manager at the ranch I am more interested in going to make my next bombay and tonic.....I will educate you correctly tomorrow if I remember...

 

[PCC600]

Your question is based on false assumptions, unless you are buying a double rifle you intend to throw away in the near future.

ALL double rifle calibers eventually require handloading. Sooner or later, the manufacturer of loaded ammunition that your given rifle was regulated to at the factory changes their recipe. It could be due to supply chain, or changing of the chemical plant that makes their powder, or it could be they change from woodleigh to Hornady bullets due to availability, or it could be they want to offer a different bullet (e.g. Barnes) and discontinue your load.

Federal alone has changed their factory load recipes 3x in 25 years.

So regardless of caliber, you are handloading, or someone is handloading for you.

So the real question is which caliber is the easiest to get components for and is generally the simplest to build regulating loads for with the most choices? Answer: 470NE and 500NE.

I have to hand load for all my doubles even the brand new one. For older ones factory ammo is useless - invariably too slow causing regulation problems . You just need to sit down with targets , chronograph and plenty of pills , powder , cases and primers and shoot until you find what works and then most importantly write it down where you can find it later !

 

[Northern Shooter]

So it sounds like Heyms are in the ballpark of $20,000, Merkel's and Krieghoffs around $15,000.

Are there any options for $10,000? Chapuis? VC?

I know you can find affordable Baikals and Sabattis but I'm not interested in those.

 

[rookhawk]

I’ve seen merkels for $6800 and k guns for $7900, a testament to how durable their pricing isn’t. A heym holds its value better. They continue to increase their new MSRP and have a multi year backlog.

 

[Pondoro]

I’ve seen merkels for $6800 and k guns for $7900, a testament to how durable their pricing isn’t. A heym holds its value better. They continue to increase their new MSRP and have a multi year backlog.

That makes both Merkels and K-guns bargains on the used market...I bought a very nicely engraved Krieghoff .470 for $6500,- 4 years ago.. That rifle new today is at least $20.000,- Mine was hardly fired, stock upgrade, swing mount included..

In addition to that, that rifle is very forgiving when it comes to regulating...it shoots more or less equally with Norma, Federal and Hornady factory at 50 yards.. It was easy to make it regulate with hand loads too..

Krieghoff´s have a reputation for being very forgiving regarding regulation...in both .470 and .500NE, every owner of these rifles I have met tell me exactely that..a big plus in my book..

 

[Pondoro]

Roohawk...you claim that engraving on Krieghoff´s are childish..do you find this elephant childish..? I find it a lot better than the low priced Birmingham made pre WW2´s

And secondly...you claim that the cocker/de-cocker on K-guns demand tremendous force to operate...then your thumb must be tremendously weaker than mine..

 

[Altitude sickness]

Man, please send me the link to a $8000 Krieghoff double

 

[rookhawk]

View attachment 573995

Roohawk...you claim that engraving on Krieghoff´s are childish..do you find this elephant childish..? I find it a lot better than the low priced Birmingham made pre WW2´s

And secondly...you claim that the cocker/de-cocker on K-guns demand tremendous force to operate...then your thumb must be tremendously weaker than mine..

Yours is better than most, but for what it costs, I do not find it particularly skillful engraving. It is similar to Spanish shotguns, where they use a very simple variety of gouges to cut the dollar bill engraving. It covers maximum surface area with minimum labor. This is a stereotypical K-gun for expression of what I think is overpriced and childish engraving. It would look 10x with simple border engraving.

 

[Sourdough]

@Northern Shooter what do you intend to hunt with it?

 

[Northern Shooter]

@Northern Shooter what do you intend to hunt with it?

Everything from Elk to Cape Buffalo.

 

[Sourdough]

Go with the 470NE then.

 

[rookhawk]

Everything from Elk to Cape Buffalo.

Size wise, a 450/400 3" NE is going to be the most accurate at the greatest distances of the large bores we've bantered about, while being excessive for Elk and wholly sufficient for Cape Buffalo. (and ALL the plains game)

470NE is a wonderful caliber, even better for Buffalo/Bison, and sufficient+ for Elephant and Hippo. But the bullets drop like mortars and it is not as versatile for use on Elk, Sable, Kudu, Eland.

Both are great, you need to decide which is going to be used most in your world. If you were going to kill a Cape Buffalo once or twice, but you were going to use this gun all over North America and Europe the rest of your life, I'd suggest you buy the very finest 375 Flanged you can afford, knowing it will get the most use by virtue of the fact its appropriate for Elk, Bear, Boar, and a lot more on the smaller end of the spectrum.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Size wise, a 450/400 3" NE is going to be the most accurate at the greatest distances of the large bores we've bantered about, while being excessive for Elk and wholly sufficient for Cape Buffalo. (and ALL the plains game)

470NE is a wonderful caliber, even better for Buffalo/Bison, and sufficient+ for Elephant and Hippo. But the bullets drop like mortars and it is not as versatile for use on Elk, Sable, Kudu, Eland.

Both are great, you need to decide which is going to be used most in your world. If you were going to kill a Cape Buffalo once or twice, but you were going to use this gun all over North America and Europe the rest of your life, I'd suggest you buy the very finest 375 Flanged you can afford, knowing it will get the most use by virtue of the fact its appropriate for Elk, Bear, Boar, and a lot more on the smaller end of the spectrum.

All fair points, and to be honest this cartridge choice will be "overkill" for 95% of what I hunt, but so is my 375HH, 458WM and upcoming 416 Rigby.

I want a double for more of a wow factor, more of a conversation peice in the collection that I will still take out to hunt the largest of North American game and one day Africa.

I was hoping to go with something ballistically superior to my 458WM to top off my collection.

I know that 470NE is fairly close to 458WM in terms of energy, may have it beat due to the longer barrels.

 

[Jim Golden]

If you do not reload, it will be extremely unlikely that you will find an off the shelf commercial load that will make you happy. I did with my .470 five or six years ago, and I promptly purchase 240 rounds of the same lot. That will be enough to see me through with that rifle.

I shipped my Blaser S2 to Lance Hendershot https://hendershots.net/ who worked up .375, 500/416, and 30 06 loads for it. He maintains the records of those loads and forty more rounds are a phone call and few weeks wait. I have no idea if someone offers a similar service in Canada.

I know Lance. Also his dad Jerry and (I think Grandpa) Glenn. My dad started buying from them in 1963 at their original Hancock store. I'm sure Glenn is long gone. Jerry might be gone too. They moved to Hagerstown, MD, for a while, but now have a shop back in Hancock, MD, right across the street from their original shop.

Handloading is really the way to go. It doesn't cost that much to get into it, and it's a lot of fun. You can work up loads that you can't buy commercially and do all kinds of stuff. I almost exlusively handload now for all of the toys.

 

[SStomcat]

Now that we are on the fun topic of comparing double rifle makers to car manufacturers, I would suggest the following:

In no particular order:
Chapuis = DS (luxury Citroën)
Verney Carron = PGO
Merkel = Volkswagen
Krieghoff = Mercedes
Heym = Porsche
H&H = Rolls Royce
Westley Richards = Lamborghini
Rigby = Ferrari

Let the flaming begin!

No place for Purdey?

 

[Mountaineer]

Lance’s Dad still works some everyday. He even shot a Cape buffalo back in August. Great family. They know their stuff.

 

[Franco]

All fair points, and to be honest this cartridge choice will be "overkill" for 95% of what I hunt, but so is my 375HH, 458WM and upcoming 416 Rigby.

I want a double for more of a wow factor, more of a conversation peice in the collection that I will still take out to hunt the largest of North American game and one day Africa.

I was hoping to go with something ballistically superior to my 458WM to top off my collection.

I know that 470NE is fairly close to 458WM in terms of energy, may have it beat due to the longer barrels.

Please don't be offended or insulted by what I am going to say (and I'm just saying this before someone else does) $10,000 is not going to get you a "Wow"; it will get you a "Cool".
$25K gets "Nice", $50K gets "Wow", and $100K gets "Holy Shit".

 

[Franco]

Assuming you're still reading my comments after my previous one:

The 450-400 is a great caliber and Heym makes a great double. I've shot cape buffalo, elephants, rhino, giraffe, and zebra with it. It's very accurate out to 100 yds, but does show a bit of drop and drift at 200. I hit a 4' x 8' sheet of plywood at 270 yds - but I wouldn't make a habit of it.

When I purchased the 450-400, it was with the intention of not exceeding cape buffalo. Well, I bought a Community Hunt which included an elephant, and here I am 3 elephants later. Although the 450-400 has been effective with brain shots, I bought a 500NE Double to give me a better margin.

Any double rifle is going to be a conversation piece, and the "Wow" is going to come from you - each and every time you shoot something with it.

Want to impress someone with your double - make the shot. That $100K Purdy might as well be a bat if you miss.

Buy the rifle that makes YOU happy.

 

[Northern Shooter]

---

Please don't be offended or insulted by what I am going to say (and I'm just saying this before someone else does) $10,000 is not going to get you a "Wow"; it will get you a "Cool".
$25K gets "Nice", $50K gets "Wow", and $100K gets "Holy Shit".

I understand that many here are quite well off and live in the world of $50,000+ firearms, I admire them for that and their accomplishments but it's not realistic for many of us, myself included.

Currently all my "nice" bolt guns are in the $2,000-$3,000 range. My most expensive firearm is a $4,000 black rifle so anything $10,000+ seems like a luxury item.

I realize that 10k is just scraping the bottom of fine double rifles where the sky is the limit.

I'm guessing I'll have to spend closer to 20k to find a nice German double.

So far I've been eyeing:

1. Merkel 140AE - 470NE - $12,500
2. Merkel 160AE - 470NE - $15,000
3. Heym 88B - 500NE - $17,000

 

[rookhawk]

Please don't be offended or insulted by what I am going to say (and I'm just saying this before someone else does) $10,000 is not going to get you a "Wow"; it will get you a "Cool".
$25K gets "Nice", $50K gets "Wow", and $100K gets "Holy Shit".

I agree with @Franco . A used, lovingly cared for magazine rifle in a large bore caliber you searched a year to find, and spent $10,000, that will get a “Holy Shit” that’s a fine rifle. $10,000 Double rifles, I can’t help thinking under my breath, what a utilitarian, soulless POS. There are bargain exceptions, being at the right place at the right time, usually in a caliber you didn’t select, but rather you pounced on a deal. Nonetheless, cheap double rifles are very ugly things with signs of mass production, electro pencil engraving, acidic photo transfer of engraving layout, through-bolted wood into mediocre Turkish walnut, topped off with poly or truoil finish. Pimpy bad.

For functionality, yes there are Merkels, and krieghoffs, and Sabattis, and a bunch of odd ducks that may go bang correctly, but they aren’t artistry in motion. It sounds like you’re looking for more than a depreciating working tool? That puts you into Heyms, unknown maker high grade Ferlachs, extractor Birmingham guns, etc. While most may not know the name, the Quality will be self evident. Different strokes for different folks.