Any reason not to use a 350 grain .375 bullet for buffalo

[TSIBINDI]

...FWIW: Woodleigh Bullets "Fed 215, 350bullets, 68-72gr H-4350/IMR 4350 Velocity=2300-2380fps."
Norma loads with 350gr bullets. Velocity, 2300fps

 

[Tanks]

@One Day... and the other ballistics experts here: Reading through this thread, the calculations you made and conclusions you came to, are exactly opposite to what @nomspc in his discussion with Kevin Robertson received as advice. Also mentioned in Kevin Robertson's recent podcast, where he claims that for outstanding penetration, one needs good bullet stability, which is found in heavy for caliber bullets, in relation to typical twist rates.
...

I'm a bit confused now...

One thing is Robertson's research and experience with heavy for caliber bullets are in bolt guns. So, he did not have to worry about regulation etc..

Also, a 375 H&H flanged (if that is what the double has) is already moving 150 to 200 fps slower than the 375 H&H add the extra weight you might be under 2K at the muzzle. Will it open up with whatever bullet being considered?

If one wants heavier bullets that will do the job, then maybe one needs to graduate from the "rat calibers" to the big bores.

 

[VertigoBE]

Thanks @liam375 for your insights, definitely food for thought...

@Tanks , unfortunately for the moment my "rat caliber" is all I (will) have.

As my double (.375H&H) is regulated for the 350 grain Norma Woodleigh's FMJ/RNSN this is what I will need to work with for now. Maybe in time I'll test if a 300grain also regulates well.
I was actually hoping the 350 grain FMJ would be an excellent penetrator and good Elephant brain shot medicine. But with @liam375 findings (although contrary to Robertson's) this is giving me pause.

let's see if others will chime in on these contradictory results

 

[WAB]

Thanks @liam375 for your insights, definitely food for thought...

@Tanks , unfortunately for the moment my "rat caliber" is all I (will) have.

As my double (.375H&H) is regulated for the 350 grain Norma Woodleigh's FMJ/RNSN this is what I will need to work with for now. Maybe in time I'll test if a 300grain also regulates well.
I was actually hoping the 350 grain FMJ would be an excellent penetrator and good Elephant brain shot medicine. But with @liam375 findings (although contrary to Robertson's) this is giving me pause.

let's see if others will chime in on these contradictory results

I shot a big Botswana bull with 350 gr Woodleigh conventional solids, side brain shot. I don’t think the bullet even slowed down going through that bulls head. The penetration of a 350 gr solid in a .375 has to be seen to be believed. My friend ranches in Bots. He claims end to end pass throughs on elephant cows with that bullet. (Shot in control work).

 

[VertigoBE]

I shot a big Botswana bull with 350 gr Woodleigh conventional solids, side brain shot. I don’t think the bullet even slowed down going through that bulls head. The penetration of a 350 gr solid in a .375 has to be seen to be believed. My friend ranches in Bots. He claims end to end pass throughs on elephant cows with that bullet. (Shot in control work).

Thank you for adding this @WAB, this tilts the balance back to "heavy-for-caliber-is-good" side. Just to rule them out as possible distinctions that others previously made. Did you use a double or a bolt action? In case of a double, a 375 flanged or not? Was it a factory load or not and if so, what brand/exact ammunition?

 

[NIGHTHAWK]

...FWIW: Woodleigh Bullets "Fed 215, 350bullets, 68-72gr H-4350/IMR 4350 Velocity=2300-2380fps."
Norma loads with 350gr bullets. Velocity, 2300fps

I was reviewing the latest Barnes info yesterday because I need to hand load about 50 rounds…

 

[NIGHTHAWK]

I was reviewing the latest Barnes info yesterday because I need to hand load about 50 rounds…

View attachment 452315

I was also to happy to find I had powder!
both IMR 4320 and RL 15…

 

[WAB]

Thank you for adding this @WAB, this tilts the balance back to "heavy-for-caliber-is-good" side. Just to rule them out as possible distinctions that others previously made. Did you use a double or a bolt action? In case of a double, a 375 flanged or not? Was it a factory load or not and if so, what brand/exact ammunition?

.375 H&H in a Winchester M-70. Hand loads with 350 gr Woodleigh conventional solids at roughly 2300 fps.

As an aside, my hand loads with Woodleigh 350 gr softs are the single most accurate loads I have ever developed for a .375. It is not at all unusual to shoot one hole cloverleafs at 100.

 

[WAB]

I would guess that you will get about 2150 fps with 350 gr bullets in a .375 flanged. I would not hesitate to use that combination.

 

[Ryan]

This is just my own personal experience and observation on the 6 Cape buffalo I’ve taken last two years (which may be more and be significantly less than others here) but I have used the 350 gr Norma factory ammo in 375 and had mixed results with penetration. Both noted by myself and PH on at least two of the buff is that if you are shooting through brush or twigs the 350 soft bullet seems to deform very early and the penetration was less than desired on the first shot.
Others that were clear broadside shots with no obstructions succumbed very quickly and reacted very hard to the impact.

Im sure at the end of the day the 350 gr is fine but this was a very noticeable trend during my own hunts. Definitely prepare to sneak in a second shot quickly if your first one is going to hit brush. Welcome all challenges to this observation and I won’t take offense if you have thoughts contrary to it.

Something is telling me the swift A frame in 300 grain and tsx or 350 HD woodleigh would fare better when you are shooting through brush, sticks, branches etc.
As a result of my experience, I would definitely apply more caution or prefer to wait for a better angle with the 350. To me, after having learned the hard way myself, patience on good clear broadside presentation is worth it over what can be an extended and dangerous follow up job.

just my thoughts!

It seems to me the bullet isn't the problem, the brush is. No matter the design, a bullet hitting brush and branches is liable to deflect, wobble, tumble or a combination of those. This just adds to the data out there proving that.

 

[C.W. Richter]

No. Use shorter, more traditional 350s in handloads and you'll get better V (2350ish+) Do not believe the numbers published in marketing info, including box labels on factory ammo. Handloading manuals are accurate. I've chronographed a pile that don't live up to the sales-hype. The heaviest Barnes bullets ARE longer (they are less dense and therefore have to be in ea caliber. They eat up powder space in most cartridge. I did load some in 375 but never hunted w/ em. 'Got 2300 fps using the 350 TSX and 2400 fps using their banded Solids, using RL15-which is the powder to use in 375!) Great bullets, and I used the 270s in 375 (perfectly fine, high V,) but the shorter (Woodleigh-type softs/solids-i know they're going South), so perhaps my fav Swift A-Frames and Barnes banded solids, as reloads of those two seem to print more similarly (I use 'em in .416.) Handloading for the Swift/Barnes combo as described, you can get 2400ish out of both and thus they shoot similarly. 2,450 is ideal. 2,350 is good. These will be less pleasant than 270s. Read what Kevin Robertson has to say about 350s in 375 for DG (behaves just like a 416.)

 

[steve white]

100% agreed with @sestoppelman, @DOC-404, @Kopskoot and @Red Leg. 300 gr soft nose lead core did not become the standard reference at random. Surely, hundreds of thousands of buff died over the last 100 years verifying the appropriateness of the recipe...

Will bigger/faster do it too? Obviously yes! 400 gr .416, 500 gr .470, etc. come to mind...

Will 350 gr .375 do it too? Well... depends... As already noted by @sestoppelman if your double shoots 6" groups at 50 yd with them, or if they punch paper sideways as noted by @Kopskoot, most of us would probably stick to the 300 gr regulation load...

I notice that the 350 gr Norma loads fly at 2,175 fps at 50 yd and barely 2,050 fps at 100 yd, so the speed issue noted by @Kopskoot is very real if the slug were a TSX (or other mono-metal?). In Norma's 350 gr case, however, they use Woodleigh softs and Woodleigh FMJ, so speed is not as critical.

Here is one more aspect that has not been discussed yet: all other considerations remaining equal, increasing the weight of the ejecta (bullet + powder) by 10% increases recoil by 20%. Conversely, a 10% lower speed will counteract and reduce recoil by 20%. So, going to 350 gr at 2,300 fps instead of 300 gr at 2,550 fps increases ejecta weight by 18% and reduces speed by 10%. Logically, one should expect an increase of recoil of 15%. This will not be an issue for some/most, but could it be for others?

On DG, there is no such thing as too dead, so this is where it seems that high weight retention mono-metal (and A Frame) deliver "added performance for same weight" over lower weight retention (older) soft nose lead bullets (including Nosler Partition that shed their front core). Sticking to 300 gr with a mono-metal up-guns the .375. A very, very sound approach as noted by @Red Leg.

However, a growing number of folks (I am one of them) have started questioning whether "same performance with lower weight" is not a viable path? If indeed the performance is what it needs to be, and going mono-metal increases performance, then the same question logically asked by @DOC-404 applies: why? (I purposefully teased the africahunting.com community with the provocative question of reducing bullet weight by the 30% that the Partition typically looses - https://www.africahunting.com/threads/can-plains-game-a-frames-or-tsx-bullets-be-30-lighter.45537/ - to see what Brothers in Arms thought, and while we seem to all agree that 30% might be a bridge too far, it looks like a lot of us are comfortable with shooting mono-metal 10% lighter than lead core bullets).

So, to me, the question would be: will a .375 H&H 270 gr mono-meta do the same job and recoil less, hence be more shootable for most folks? (and increase the universality of the .375 by making it flatter shooting still).

And to further confuse the issue (LOL), I will hasten to add that I left the .375 bandwagon in favor of the .416 bandwagon when CZ finally "resurrected" the field-grade .416 Rigby, and that, anyway, I hunt buff with a Kreighoff .470 NE double. The rationale (?) to the .416 madness being that if there is a genuine point (?) about up-gunning the .375 to 350 gr bullets, then I guess that 400 gr .416 are even better. The rationale (?) to the .470 madness being that I just like the 'romance' of the big double...

PS: but I still have a .375 H&H and probably 5 or 6 boxes of Federal Premium 300 gr Nosler Partition for it. Some day, one of my sons will love it. The other will get the .416 R. Both guns will do the job if we have done our job of making sure that safari hunting is still a possibility for them...

Not to mention that the 270 gr monumental will perform at higher velocity which is even better for a monumental projectile's performance

 

[steve white]

My fascination with say, 380 gr. Rhino soft points would be that a combination of wide wound channel with those opening petals (kind of like a bear claw on steroids) being driven by the momentum of the heavier projectile might just provide the practical equivalent of the 416 standard loadings??

 

[C.W. Richter]

Not to mention that the 270 gr monumental will perform at higher velocity which is even better for a monumental projectile's performance

Sounds quite decorative and festive!!

 

[Paul Homsy]

@One Day... and the other ballistics experts here: Reading through this thread, the calculations you made and conclusions you came to, are exactly opposite to what @nomspc in his discussion with Kevin Robertson received as advice. Also mentioned in Kevin Robertson's recent podcast, where he claims that for outstanding penetration, one needs good bullet stability, which is found in heavy for caliber bullets, in relation to typical twist rates.

Did I misunderstand something here? Because these views are not two different shades of colour, they are diametrically opposed views. One saying, 350grains (heavy for caliber) is (generally) no good for bullet stability and thus more prone to keyholing and lower performance in penetration. The other saying the heavy for caliber bullets are better for penetration performance....

I'm a bit confused now...

In general, your viewpoint correct. Heavy for caliber bullets may at times require a faster twist than standard, however the 375 with its 1/12 rate of twist is perfectly capable to stabilize heavy for caliber bullets. If you were refering to 30 caliber bullets, then the typical 1/10 rate of twist may not be sufficient for long, heavy for caliber bullets such as 220 grains pointed bullets and up in weight. As an example the barrels chambered for the 300 Norma Magnum which is specifically a long distance cartridge requiring these types of longer bullets with higher bearing surface, are often chambered in faster rates of twist such as 1/8 give or take.
The 375, 416, 458 are generally chambered in rates of twist sufficient to properly stabilize heavy for caliber bullets. The notion which I agree with that long, heavy for caliber bullets require faster rates of twist applies more to smaller calibers.

 

[C.W. Richter]

In general, your viewpoint correct. Heavy for caliber bullets may at times require a faster twist than standard, however the 375 with its 1/12 rate of twist is perfectly capable to stabilize heavy for caliber bullets. If you were refering to 30 caliber bullets, then the typical 1/10 rate of twist may not be sufficient for long, heavy for caliber bullets such as 220 grains pointed bullets and up in weight. As an example the barrels chambered for the 300 Norma Magnum which is specifically a long distance cartridge requiring these types of longer bullets with higher bearing surface, are often chambered in faster rates of twist such as 1/8 give or take.
The 375, 416, 458 are generally chambered in rates of twist sufficient to properly stabilize heavy for caliber bullets. The notion which I agree with that long, heavy for caliber bullets require faster rates of twist applies more to smaller calibers.

Big bore bullets are relatively short and of similar length (as compared to sm-med cal bullets of differing weights.) A 375 will stabilize a 235 gr just as well as a 350 with no issues. Even the train-length Barnes X (which can eat into powder capacity in certain cartridges)! A faster twist will nearly always stabilize short, low bc/low sd, lower bearing surface bullets. They revolve rather quickly, but no issues with accuracy. (some insane 4,000 fps loads will explode out of the bbl, but not most.) Never an issue in any of my hunting guns from .22 to .416.

 

[nomspc]

We all want a buffalo bullet that expands enough, penetrates enough, holds together (no fragmentation). Heavy for caliber, expanding bullets at moderate velocity seem to offer the most consistent results on buffalo. A commonly-held rule of thumb is to consider bullets with a sectional density above .3 for buffalo, as this gives you a favorable combination of caliber and bullet weight. Looking at the Barnes TSX, here are SD’s for a few .375 bullets:
270 gr = .274
300 gr = .305
350 gr = .356
Is more better? The 270 TSX is a great bullet, but, on average, you’ll get more penetration from the 300, which means more flexibility in hunting situations. Kevin Robertson loves the 350 grain .375 bullet, but is not crazy about the 350 TSX. He says the 350 TSX expands to the same diameter as the 300 TSX, which can lead to over penetration and shoot-throughs if pushed too fast. This conversation lead me to my choice for a .375 buffalo bullet; the Woodleigh Weldcore 350 gr HD at 2300 fps. It has been said that this load hits like a .416, which may be because it’s SD is higher than many larger caliber bullets. As an example, the .416 Rigby 410 gr bullet has an SD of .338.

So, my answer to the OP’s question is to use the right .375 350 gr bullet.

 

[VertigoBE]

We all want a buffalo bullet that expands enough, penetrates enough, holds together (no fragmentation). Heavy for caliber, expanding bullets at moderate velocity seem to offer the most consistent results on buffalo. A commonly-held rule of thumb is to consider bullets with a sectional density above .3 for buffalo, as this gives you a favorable combination of caliber and bullet weight. Looking at the Barnes TSX, here are SD’s for a few .375 bullets:
270 gr = .274
300 gr = .305
350 gr = .356
Is more better? The 270 TSX is a great bullet, but, on average, you’ll get more penetration from the 300, which means more flexibility in hunting situations. Kevin Robertson loves the 350 grain .375 bullet, but is not crazy about the 350 TSX. He says the 350 TSX expands to the same diameter as the 300 TSX, which can lead to over penetration and shoot-throughs if pushed too fast. This conversation lead me to my choice for a .375 buffalo bullet; the Woodleigh Weldcore 350 gr HD at 2300 fps. It has been said that this load hits like a .416, which may be because it’s SD is higher than many larger caliber bullets. As an example, the .416 Rigby 410 gr bullet has an SD of .338.

So, my answer to the OP’s question is to use the right .375 350 gr bullet.

@nomspc : what do you think about the .375H&H Norma Woodleigh in 350 grains with either FMJ or RNSN ?

 

[nomspc]

@nomspc : what do you think about the .375H&H Norma Woodleigh in 350 grains with either FMJ or RNSN ?

The RNSN is my favorite factory load in this caliber for buffalo, if you can find it. Second choice is the 300 gr TSX.

 

[One Day...]

@One Day... and the other ballistics experts here: Reading through this thread, the calculations you made and conclusions you came to, are exactly opposite to what @nomspc in his discussion with Kevin Robertson received as advice.
...
Did I misunderstand something here?
...
I'm a bit confused now...

Sorry for a delayed answer, I just flew back from a few days in Washington DC for business...

I fundamentally agree with "Doctari" Robertson that a .350 gr slug at appropriate velocity up-guns the .375 deep into .416 territory. I am tempted to add: period.

I guess that I cannot offer a better endorsement than to say that I shot the elephant in my avatar with two .375 H&H Norma Pro 350 gr Woodleigh FMJ body shots from my scoped R8 in a rare opening, after carrying my .470 NE double K Gun for a week in thick jesse, in Zim.

The original discussion was a bit different if memory serves (?). If I recall, it was about going to 350 gr slugs in a double that was regulated for 300 gr (always an iffy gamble...); having slugs hit the target sideways (ooops!); which led to discussing stabilizing long slugs in a slow twist 1 in 14" .375 barrel (not the best recipe...); getting TSX to open at less than 2,000 fps (Barnes insist on 1,800+, hence 2,000 does not give much safety margin...); observing that 350 gr slugs increase recoil over 300 gr slugs (which is a fact...); and finally discussing whether a 270 gr TSX would do the job of a classic Nosler Partition 300 gr (which it does very well...).

So, a whole lot, but none of which is contradictory to the concept beloved by Robertson, and to which I subscribe, that higher bullet weight, i.e. higher sectional density and momentum produce deeper penetration ... as long as the slug is stabilized by the barrel twist; flies fast enough to open (solids excepted); regulates in the double if a double is used; does not recoil more than the shooter can take, etc. etc. etc.

Will a 270 gr TSX hammer a Buff? Heck yes! Will a 350 gr TSX / Woodleigh RNSN / etc. hit him noticeably harder and deeper? Heck yes again! Note: I would not use a .375 monolithic solid or FMJ 350 gr at proper speed on Buff, it will punch through, likely even lengthwise...

what do you think about the .375H&H Norma Woodleigh in 350 grains with either FMJ or RNSN ?

I love them! This was my scoped rifle backup on elephant in Zimbabwe...
In my R8 they print within half an inch of each other at 100 yards, which gave me a scoped backup option on elephant (which I ended up using), and a do-it-all option on PG out to 200 yards, although the trajectory quickly drops after that.


The bottom line, to answer the thread title question, is that if the .375 is for DG only, 350 gr is a bigger hammer than 300 gr, hence it hits harder and penetrates deeper. This being said, if the .375 is the only rifle on safari, the 300 gr (AFrame / TSX and equivalents) and even 270 gr will do just fine too.