African price wars!

[Royal27]

What some are missing is it is the perfect storm that in on the hunters side this year. To much supply for demand plus a great exchange rate for us american hunters

DING DING DING DING!!!!

We have a winner folks!!!!!

But I can still remember when an ele hunt went for 40,000 or MORE and then you were still told they were just making it at that cost. Now the same ele hunt sell for 25,000 by the same guys now. S

I remember that question. And although in a few cases there may be lower gov fees now in some places (and due to the ivory ban) I think you are spot on. I'll even add to it. Why can you get a 30 lb ele in Zim for $20k and the same size ele in SA costs $35k? Costs are $15k higher to hunt in SA, right??? HAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Nope, the ele in SA is exportable and enough people are willing to pay the premium in order to keep the ivory. SUPPLY AND DEMAND!!!!!

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I wandered into an empty bar the other day with only one big hunchbacked bartender in there. I asked how much for a beer... $20, so asked how much for a rum and coke... $40, Double shot of Johnny Walker Black... $60!

So I told him his prices were just too high and I was going elsewhere... He was understanding about it but then said, well thanks for not commenting about my hunchback... I turned and replied " what hunchback? For how high everything else in here is, I thought that was your ass!"

Point being, no matter how high above the rest of us your ass might be, supply and demand still works and people will just choose to go elsewhere if your priced to far above the market

No argument there I just wonder how some of these asses come up with they're pricing???
Ours have been level for the last 6 years, not a 30% decrease and a 25% increase difference year on year, and going with that the trail of confusion, and devaluation left in the wake....

I have a simple question, does the average hunter know how to difrentiate? If this was purely supply and demand, why are buffalo still selling for $20k in some cases, most of the market still settles on $12500 for 7 days and $14k for 10?

I sell 10 buff a year it is what I have to sell at my price, and they sell, and I'm happy with that.
The 8k buff guy sells 32 has 4 where will the others come from.

Hunters on this thread you make the decision, you decide, no problem with that I do not think that many outfitters for one and consumers really get where I'm at, and where my concerns are, competition is good especially good competition, let's wait for the cull and talk again.

My best.

 

[Brent in Az]

I understand Jaco's point in fact. I used to own a small cabinet and woodworking business. When the Real Estate investment market imploded in 2008-09, it came down hard on the construction industry. It was a buyers market. The problem was very few were buying. It came to the point were I was bidding at cost, just to try and keep my doors open. Many business's survived, some of us didn't.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I understand Jaco's point in fact. I used to own a small cabinet and woodworking business. When the Real Estate investment market imploded in 2008-09, it came down hard on the construction industry. It was a buyers market. The problem was very few were buying. It came to the point were I was bidding at cost, just to try and keep my doors open. Many business's survived, some of us didn't.

I get it, thanks for the post, I think it boils down to focus... What is your target market, I have had the best year I had in the last 5, but consumers are confused.
This is why I don't get the supply and demand theory or argument on this thread......, I guess it's what you sell and who you focus on selling it too.....
If we look at Beans's buff special, I reckon it's fair and at a fair market related price, for the amount of days, from a reputable outfitter.

I hope the exchange rate players do well and that the damage can be contained.

My best

 

[Brent in Az]

In my scenario, there were a hundred companies competing for a handful of available projects. Some weathered the storm, many folks like myself ran out of cash, and had to wave the white flag of surrender. Circumstances became more complicated, when my wife of 14 years decided the grass was not green enough on my side of the fence. My situation is a bit of an anomaly.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I understand Jaco's point in fact. I used to own a small cabinet and woodworking business. When the Real Estate investment market imploded in 2008-09, it came down hard on the construction industry. It was a buyers market. The problem was very few were buying. It came to the point were I was bidding at cost, just to try and keep my doors open. Many business's survived, some of us didn't.

@Jaco Strauss, I think Brent makes a good point here. I don't think the safari business has reached the point that Brent's business went through, but it certainly wasn't like it was when I booked my first hunt.

But to Brent's point, there comes a point where any business will start to do the extraordinary just to keep the business alive. At that point all goals are short term and a loss of focus on the long term happens. Eventually the extraordinary goes to the point that there's no longer a profit, in fact it may be at a loss to stay in business. There are very few small businesses that can operate like that for long and they will be forced to shut the doors. Or if the period of razor thin profit margins stretches long enough, the owner will grow tired of wasting their time and shut it down.

Do I think it wise to run your prices down to where the profit margins have all but gone to zero? No, but that's an easy position to take from my recliner and not as the owner. One thing for sure is it is risky and as has been seen before it will catch up to you eventually.

My concern is more for the longer term. I don't want to see this business become like buying a car where you choose between the dealer close to your home or the one close to your office with ultimately the decision is based on price alone. That will serve to diminish the product and turn it into a nickel and dime experience.

Furthermore while I fault no one for seeking a good deal, as somebody once said, "Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it."

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

@Jaco Strauss, I think Brent makes a good point here. I don't think the safari business has reached the point that Brent's business went through, but it certainly wasn't like it was when I booked my first hunt.

But to Brent's point, there comes a point where any business will start to do the extraordinary just to keep the business alive. At that point all goals are short term and a loss of focus on the long term happens. Eventually the extraordinary goes to the point that there's no longer a profit, in fact it may be at a loss to stay in business. There are very few small businesses that can operate like that for long and they will be forced to shut the doors. Or if the period of razor thin profit margins stretches long enough, the owner will grow tired of wasting their time and shut it down.

Do I think it wise to run your prices down to where the profit margins have all but gone to zero? No, but that's an easy position to take from my recliner and not as the owner. One thing for sure is it is risky and as has been seen before it will catch up to you eventually.

My concern is more for the longer term. I don't want to see this business become like buying a car where you choose between the dealer close to your home or the one close to your office with ultimately the decision is based on price alone. That will serve to diminish the product and turn it into a nickel and dime experience.

Furthermore while I fault no one for seeking a good deal, as somebody once said, "Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it."

Exactly. Why this stupid post started.

 

[Brent in Az]

Well said Phil. I have never been a "bottom price" shopper. I weigh all options, to get the best quality and value, or bang for my buck, even if it costs a little more. Cheaper is not always better.

 

[CAustin]

Jaco, I kind of agree with Simon. I see that I generally tip my PH more than you pay him!

Same here Hank tip more than that.
But if an outfitter can maintain his price and sell the number of hunts he needs to sell to make a profit good for him!
I suspect there are also fewer hunters traveling over seas this year! Probably a little concerning for an outfitter who sold X number of hunts in the first couple of shows last year only to find he is selling fewer this year. So outfitters at shows are trying to find that price that motivates the buyer to book. Chances are these prices have trended lower.
As for me when I book a hunt I have set a range of what I'm willing to pay and I'm not going higher than my cap! Same with add on trophies. If that works for me and the outfitter then we are both happy!

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Ph pricing was an average gratuities are exactly that it's not a given most ph's rely on it to survive, good guides get $200 a day,
agreeing with Simon that it's stupid......??I reckon if I did that I'd be ignorant.

My best

 

[Erny]

On a lighter note Jaco.......how is the kite surfing going at your new home?

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Not home yet Tom! will tell you around the 20th when I get there, I'll send you pictures if you and Ila promise not to be jealous....

My very best to you as always

 

[billc]

I total get that cheaper is not always better. That is the great thing about the freedom to pick who you hunt with based on your wants and needs.

Just sick of the same few saying it is wrong or crying about how anyone else runs there business. It just seems pointless every year to bring up how someone does not understand how someone can offer the prices they do.

 

[Hank2211]

Let's be clear about one thing. It is true that if you are American, hunt prices can in some cases seem like a deal. Some trophy fees have come down, and by a lot.

But we're not all Americans. In Canadian dollar terms, hunts in South Africa are the most expensive they have been since I started hunting. The price of my hunt in Ethiopia this year is up over 30% since I booked it, in Canadian dollar terms. I'm not complaining, but making a point. That's the way it is.

I did not see a single outfitter in Vegas who priced his hunts in Canadian dollars, and haven't seen any advertised. Some on this thread have mentioned it, but I haven't seen it. And if they did, my guess is that they'd take the US$ value and just convert it. And why not? Most hunters come from the US and if the outfitter can sell the hunt there, I expect he would do the businesslike thing and sell it there in US$. A market is a market, as many have said on this thread.

And that's where this gets interesting. An outfitter I spoke to, whom I know well, said he thought that outfitters should get together and decide the minimum prices for certain types of animals, such as sable, roan and buffalo. All outfitters would agree to charge no less than that. I told him the guys I knew were probably too independent to go for price fixing, even if it were legal in South Africa (don't know about that - it sure would be illegal in Canada and the US). That's the option you have.

I've been in business my whole life. Pricing comes down to this. If you want to compete on price, that's fine, but you better be the low cost provider, or you'll be out of business. The hunting business is about as segmented a business as I can think of - some want basic tents and to cook their own food, some want to bring the wives and have a spa on site. And everything in between. Decide where you want to fit, and compete there. Don't chase the high end and moan about the fact that someone is offering the hunt at a lower cost. Market yourself to the high end. I, for one, don't buy based on price (being reasonable), but on service and quality of game. I can afford to pay for some comfort, and at my age, I want some. For every hunt in some God-forsaken place (which always costs a fortune) I want a nice hunt with air conditioning. And if I'm expected to cook my own food, there better be a Steers close by.

Know your market, and be cost competitive within it.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I total get that cheaper is not always better. That is the great thing about the freedom to pick who you hunt with based on your wants and needs.

Just sick of the same few saying it is wrong or crying about how anyone else runs there business. It just seems pointless every year to bring up how someone does not understand how someone can offer the prices they do.

Bills last time I checked we where both members here, I'm sickened by unrealistic pricing and donations as you are by me mentioning it.... Point is I don't need to compete I am thinking of the average guy I spoke to several times while in the U.S. This year, and what I believe to be the longevity determinating factor, now whether whoever here lose they're cool I honestly could not care less but it is my right to post a thread as it is yours if you don't like it follow Simon's route.
Talk to you next year I guess...

My best always

 

[thi9elsp]

Jaco,

Not sure where you get the NA numbers. The only outfitter I would use in Alaska from Brown Bear is closer to $28K boat based, 4 star lodging and food. Quality Alaska Black Bear are around $6,500 - $7,500. Elk, I can do horseback for $4,900 to $5,900 or ranch for $7,500.

For me, the only 'cheap hunt' I would even consider would be coming over to cull a bunch of baboons! Otherwise, I'm going to shop for what I personally define as the best value and go from there.

John

 

[Royal27]

I've been in business my whole life. Pricing comes down to this. If you want to compete on price, that's fine, but you better be the low cost provider, or you'll be out of business. The hunting business is about as segmented a business as I can think of - some want basic tents and to cook their own food, some want to bring the wives and have a spa on site. And everything in between. Decide where you want to fit, and compete there. Don't chase the high end and moan about the fact that someone is offering the hunt at a lower cost. Market yourself to the high end. I, for one, don't buy based on price (being reasonable), but on service and quality of game. I can afford to pay for some comfort, and at my age, I want some. For every hunt in some God-forsaken place (which always costs a fortune) I want a nice hunt with air conditioning. And if I'm expected to cook my own food, there better be a Steers close by.

And this speaks to the differentiation that I've mentioned, which is why you have both cost and service leaders, allowing even the most educated consumer to have a reason to pay a different price for the "same buffalo."

An outfitter I spoke to, whom I know well, said he thought that outfitters should get together and decide the minimum prices for certain types of animals, such as sable, roan and buffalo

Assuming price fixing is legal, which I have no idea if it is, any group had better be careful they suddenly don't price themselves totally out of the market. Not that this would ever happen anyway, the first guy who wanted to sell an extra hunt would just break MAP (Minimum Advertised Pricing).

 

[billc]

Bills last time I checked we where both members here, I'm sickened by unrealistic pricing and donations as you are by me mentioning it....
Talk to you next year I guess...

My best always

Yes and I know some of it is just you venting. You just need to remember it is unrealistic pricing to you not everyone else.

What you look as bad I look at maybe some new hunter will get to good to africa now and have his dream hunt.

I have told you more then once I am happy for you if you can sale your hunts for top dollar. You put the time and money in to getting that market. Just dont hate on someone who goes after the working mans market and prices it for them and is happy making his living doing it.

 

[Royal27]

Jaco,

Not sure where you get the NA numbers. The only outfitter I would use in Alaska from Brown Bear is closer to $28K boat based, 4 star lodging and food. Quality Alaska Black Bear are around $6,500 - $7,500. Elk, I can do horseback for $4,900 to $5,900 or ranch for $7,500.

For me, the only 'cheap hunt' I would even consider would be coming over to cull a bunch of baboons! Otherwise, I'm going to shop for what I personally define as the best value and go from there.

John

Sounds like $12k for bear is actually a "cheap hunt."

Sorry guys, it had to be said.....

 

[jeff]

Sable have come up over and over in these posts and I think supply and demand is having a lot to do with price. Sable were so expensive in the past that everyone wanted to cash in on them and may outfits started raising them, there are simply many more Sable now than ten years ago. So prices have dropped due to increased numbers.