African price wars!

[ActionBob]

A lot of great points being made here! I will say that when I first started hunting Africa three years ago the advertised trophy price of a Sable with the outfitter was $10,000 but a special was available at $8,500. Granted that particular outfitter was not the low cost leader. But now I see Sable five day hunts, day rates and transfers included for $6,500 and less in South Africa. I see Sable in Zimbabwe fir $4500 ! Folks that speaks to supply and demand! Supply gies up and demand goes down so will price!
One my second trip to the concession where I took my Kudu the owner had been raising Sable to sell to other farms! He was up to over 100 head of Sable! And planned to begin selling them when he reached 120 which no doubt happened this last year! He was buying buff , ten cows two bulls and three of the cows were pregnant. Give him six to eight years and that herd will be very good size!
My point is as others have mentioned the exchange rate is not alone impacting pricing ! Lot of game farms in South Africa raising these animals sooo many people want to hunt. Prices can not be artificially held high under these conditions of over production.

Wow Charlie you sure make some great points that belong on that Fair chase vs. game farm thread!

 

[ActionBob]

-fuel is exactly double and in some cases more than double a gallon.

List price 897.39 Diesel Feb 2015
List price 947.57 Diesel Feb 2016

Not adding up?

 

[Brent in Az]

I don't know much about the exchange rates, or pricing structures. I have noticed a lot of great deals being offered lately.

 

[enysse]

I'm looking for a hunt in 2016, if I can find the right deal, same for 2017. I would love to hunt Africa every year even if it was small trips and I had to work my butt off work odd ball shifts at the hospitals. I can't take long trips because work is too demanding. But I will tell you employers cut every corner they can to make a profit too. And in an election year everyone is nervous because you never know what will happen to the economy after the dust settles in November.

I thought all that game breeding was bad for South Africa, pretty much shared my feelings on AH about. I said there was going to be correction period and a lot of people are not going to like it.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Retail prices of a large provider in RSA.
http://www.engen.co.za/home/apps/content/products_services/fuel_price/default.aspx

List price 897.39 Diesel Feb 2015
List price 947.57 Diesel Feb 2016

http://southafrica.shell.com/products-services/on-the-road/fuels/petrolprice.html
About the same at Shell.

Royal:
With our currency running at R1 to 6 us cents a calculation in certain states will come to exactly double we pay per gallon.
If all our funds were kept in $ our marketing expense would be roughly the same correct, but we convert to live and spend, with the depreciation of the rand a hotel room, meal, cab is costing me 40+ % more....
All I know is marketing is out of control at this stage in terms of what we spend i tightened up the belt, and every outfitter did so in terms of increased cost that is not up for dispute.

i believe the pricing is directly related to the exchange rate, demand was very positive for what I do, I assumed it was the same for everyone.....

I was asked and consumers expressed confusion for the great variety in pricing for what is believed to be the same product, my replies, where honest.

Inflation is goin up, minimum wage is up, fuel double in terms of what US citizens pay, add $25k a month in ranch expenses, or $10k a month in fuel in Mozambique between boats, generators and cars,,,,,

Well then my prices are staying exactly where they are for now, there is no way that one can run a buisiness and cut pricing by 35% from one season to the next.
Maybe I'm lucky I don't know, I honestly don't get the logic.

Each to his own I guess, I doesn't make sense to me, I hope they survive and walk out on the other side.
Current projection for fuel in SA: 1 liter of 95 octane unleaded will be sold at R13.77 - R14.20 a liter,
Currently we are paying almost a $1 a liter....

My best always

 

[Hank2211]

A lot of great points being made here! I will say that when I first started hunting Africa three years ago the advertised trophy price of a Sable with the outfitter was $10,000 but a special was available at $8,500. Granted that particular outfitter was not the low cost leader. But now I see Sable five day hunts, day rates and transfers included for $6,500 and less in South Africa. I see Sable in Zimbabwe fir $4500 ! Folks that speaks to supply and demand! Supply gies up and demand goes down so will price!
One my second trip to the concession where I took my Kudu the owner had been raising Sable to sell to other farms! He was up to over 100 head of Sable! And planned to begin selling them when he reached 120 which no doubt happened this last year! He was buying buff , ten cows two bulls and three of the cows were pregnant. Give him six to eight years and that herd will be very good size!
My point is as others have mentioned the exchange rate is not alone impacting pricing ! Lot of game farms in South Africa raising these animals sooo many people want to hunt. Prices can not be artificially held high under these conditions of over production.

There's something else that may be at play here as well, I think. I've been told (heard this at SCI recently) that people may be shooting some animals earlier than they otherwise might have, offering those hunts on younger animals at a lower price. My guess is that there will be very few cheap sable hunts with a good chance of a 44" or better bull - these will likely be sub 40". Now that's not necessarily bad - there's nothing wrong with a 39" sable - provided - and this is my view only - that it's a mature animal.

Same with buffalo. You can shoot them young, with smaller horns, or you can wait until they are fully mature. At that point some will be larger, and some never will be, but they will at least be mature. Are there a lot of deals on 40" + buffalo? If there are, I haven't seen them.

 

[Hank2211]

A lot of great points being made here! I will say that when I first started hunting Africa three years ago the advertised trophy price of a Sable with the outfitter was $10,000 but a special was available at $8,500. Granted that particular outfitter was not the low cost leader. But now I see Sable five day hunts, day rates and transfers included for $6,500 and less in South Africa. I see Sable in Zimbabwe fir $4500 ! Folks that speaks to supply and demand! Supply gies up and demand goes down so will price!
One my second trip to the concession where I took my Kudu the owner had been raising Sable to sell to other farms! He was up to over 100 head of Sable! And planned to begin selling them when he reached 120 which no doubt happened this last year! He was buying buff , ten cows two bulls and three of the cows were pregnant. Give him six to eight years and that herd will be very good size!
My point is as others have mentioned the exchange rate is not alone impacting pricing ! Lot of game farms in South Africa raising these animals sooo many people want to hunt. Prices can not be artificially held high under these conditions of over production.

I should have added that you can't really compare the trophy fees in Zim with those in SA. You will generally find the day rates much higher in Zimbabwe, and will often be required to book a hunt of a certain number of days duration in order to get the glamour stuff. Zim can be a good deal if you plan on shooting more animals (thus spreading the higher day rate over more animals).

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Let's do the math.
$8000 10 day buff hunt.
Good reliable ph: $100 per day on DG hunts
Cost to company: drinks, meals, fuel, electricity, tracker, skinner, maids... (All relevant to your day to day client to camp cost $2000 for the 10 days.
This leaves you with $5k, you have not paid medical, insurance, life insurance, bought groceries paid other ranch staff, bought feed, run the tlb that prepares roads, fixed broken water pumps, paid your vehicle, school fees, or any of the other costs I can mention.

Simple, I've seen if a hunter wants to be a small fish in a big pond low costs safaris are the way to go, exclusivity costs money I guess.


My best

 

[siml]

@Jaco Strauss , we all biting the bullet this year. I don't see the point of posting the costs on AH. This whole post doesn't make sense to me. If I was using $10k fuel a month, I would fire my camp manager instantly!

 

[Hank2211]

Let's do the math.
$8000 10 day buff hunt.
Good reliable ph: $100 per day on DG hunts
Cost to company: drinks, meals, fuel, electricity, tracker, skinner, maids... (All relevant to your day to day client to camp cost $2000 for the 10 days.
This leaves you with $5k, you have not paid medical, insurance, life insurance, bought groceries paid other ranch staff, bought feed, run the tlb that prepares roads, fixed broken water pumps, paid your vehicle, school fees, or any of the other costs I can mention.

Simple, I've seen if a hunter wants to be a small fish in a big pond low costs safaris are the way to go, exclusivity costs money I guess.


My best

Jaco, I kind of agree with Simon. I see that I generally tip my PH more than you pay him!

 

[ActionBob]

Royal:
With our currency running at R1 to 6 us cents a calculation in certain states will come to exactly double we pay per gallon.
If all our funds were kept in $ our marketing expense would be roughly the same correct, but we convert to live and spend, with the depreciation of the rand a hotel room, meal, cab is costing me 40+ % more....
All I know is marketing is out of control at this stage in terms of what we spend i tightened up the belt, and every outfitter did so in terms of increased cost that is not up for dispute.

i believe the pricing is directly related to the exchange rate, demand was very positive for what I do, I assumed it was the same for everyone.....

I was asked and consumers expressed confusion for the great variety in pricing for what is believed to be the same product, my replies, where honest.

Inflation is goin up, minimum wage is up, fuel double in terms of what US citizens pay, add $25k a month in ranch expenses, or $10k a month in fuel in Mozambique between boats, generators and cars,,,,,

Well then my prices are staying exactly where they are for now, there is no way that one can run a buisiness and cut pricing by 35% from one season to the next.
Maybe I'm lucky I don't know, I honestly don't get the logic.

Each to his own I guess, I doesn't make sense to me, I hope they survive and walk out on the other side.
Current projection for fuel in SA: 1 liter of 95 octane unleaded will be sold at R13.77 - R14.20 a liter,
Currently we are paying almost a $1 a liter....

My best always

Jaco you are flipping back and forth so much in this post between Rand and Dollars that I can't follow your math. Not that I care, I'll find the right deal for me with an outfitter I feel comfortable with, or I will move on and go elsewhere. It's a great big World out there full of opportunities.

I do enjoy seeing you at the shows and I'm sure we will shake hands again next year. But I may have to disagree a bit with you in the mean time

All my best. Bob

 

[BRICKBURN]

..............
Simple, I've seen if a hunter wants to be a small fish in a big pond low costs safaris are the way to go, exclusivity costs money I guess.


My best

That is the real cost. Overhead is different for every Outfitter.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

@Jaco Strauss , we all biting the bullet this year. I don't see the point of posting the costs on AH. This whole post doesn't make sense to me. If I was using $10k fuel a month, I would fire my camp manager instantly!

Simon the post was not put here for you to like it.
Like the donations the price cutting is devaluating our natural resource.
A quality bear hunt runs @$12k quality elk hunts for $10k plus why are we giving away our natural resources.?

If this is a subject that some of us prefer to ignore so be it, I don't.


My best always

 

[siml]

I didn't say you put it here for me to like.....I just think it's a stupid post, no point to it. AND total nonsense about the economy, fuel is the cheapest it has been in along time.

 

[Royal27]

Inflation is goin up, minimum wage is up, fuel double in terms of what US citizens pay, add $25k a month in ranch expenses, or $10k a month in fuel in Mozambique between boats, generators and cars,,,,,

My apologies, from your original post I took it that you meant your fuel prices have doubled as compared to last year's SA fuel prices, not current SA price to current US price. Although this makes even less sense to me now as the price of fuel in SA as compared to the US is irrevelant to profitability in Africa as you don't compete with this market?

increased cost that is not up for dispute

Couldn't agree more. What I'm disputing is that the costs within SA have gone up more than the 40% (roughly) change in value to the Rand. They haven't. The only cost that I've been shown that has gone up by that amount is the marketing cost in the US, due to the exchange rate. Keep that amount in the US account (budgeted of course) and that becomes a non-issue. At the same time an outfitter IS bringing in more Rand than last year as clients are paying in dollar. Some outfitters are simply taking advantage of this, some are not.

demand was very positive for what I do, I assumed it was the same for everyone.....

I'm truly happy that demand for your product has stayed very positive, meaning you've been able to hold prices firm. That's the "differentiator" I was talking about in my original post. Obviously not everyone was willing or able to do that this year. Why? It is either that there is more money to be made, or that the market is behaving irrationally. Time will tell, but my bet is the first.

Bottom line though is really this. Individual outfitter costs are irrelevant. If an outfitter's costs are above the market price, then out of business he goes. There is no "realistic industry pricing." Such a thing is and should be a myth. It is all about supply and demand. if this isn't the case then someone needs to explain to me why a free range Sable, Kudu, and Waterbuck cost different prices from the same outfitter on the same property. All fixed costs are the same, right?

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I didn't say you put it here for me to like.....I just think it's a stupid post, no point to it. AND total nonsense about the economy, fuel is the cheapest it has been in along time.

Bwahaha I know where you find yourself then.

My best to you as well .

 

[BRICKBURN]

........
Like the donations the price cutting is devaluations our natural resource.
.................

Is that not a free market?
It is a renewable resource and if you need to sell your commodity this year you will be selling at the prevailing cost if you need to sell. Otherwise, stock pile it and wait for the markets to improve.
Some folks can't wait evidently.

We have plenty of Oil to sell at $110/bbl. Any takers? Hell, I'll even give you a deal. You can pay in Canadian Dollars instead of USD.

 

[billc]

What some are missing is it is the perfect storm that in on the hunters side this year. To much supply for demand plus a great exchange rate for us american hunters.

The few guys who whine all the time will tell you all about how much they are out and act like there is nothing left at the end. In the end I think must of us on here just look at them and do not get what point they are really trying to make. It is only a few that do it and it just looks like to me them trying to justify why they charge what they do with out anyone on here asking.

I had ask a question way back on another thread but never had one of the outfitters really answer me and I know why. But I can still remember when an ele hunt went for 40,000 or MORE and then you were still told they were just making it at that cost. Now the same ele hunt sell for 25,000 by the same guys now. So I guess now the guys are just doing the hunts and losing money. When the market crashed because of the ban on ivory prices went down because of the limited supply of hunters willing to do those hunts anymore. The price corrected itself and money is still being made on that same hunt.Not as much is being made but no one is taking a lose.

It is time a few guys and it is a small number. But they must realize all business go through this same thing over time and we all have dealt with it at sometime and must guys just do not care to hear the whining.

 

[Erny]

It seems that the price of most hunts is going down in North America as well as in Africa. I think the global economy slowing down has a lot to do with it. People just don't have the funds they had a couple of years ago. There is also a lot of apprehension here in the US as to the result of this upcoming election will have on the economy.

The exchange rate between the dollar and Rand has Certainly benefited African outfitters that are being paid in US dollars.

 

[ActionBob]

I wandered into an empty bar the other day with only one big hunchbacked bartender in there. I asked how much for a beer... $20, so asked how much for a rum and coke... $40, Double shot of Johnny Walker Black... $60!

So I told him his prices were just too high and I was going elsewhere... He was understanding about it but then said, well thanks for not commenting about my hunchback... I turned and replied " what hunchback? For how high everything else in here is, I thought that was your ass!"

Point being, no matter how high above the rest of us your ass might be, supply and demand still works and people will just choose to go elsewhere if your priced to far above the market