Acquisition of a Double Rifle

[Backyardsniper]

Ha ha I bet that is fantastic

 

[Jan Dumon]

I am no expert on double rifles but I have owned a number of them and have been around them plenty in the past 27 years of Dangerous game guiding. A few observations if you wish. This is just from first hand experience and my personal opinion. Remember , advise is worth what you pay for it...lol
$ 8 000 is going to be a difficult budget. I would think that $ 12 000 would be a easier budget to satisfy.
The best double rifles will not fit in your budget. However , it seems that you are after an experience. Ask your outfitter if he can supply you with a double for the duration of the hunt. I often do that for clients.
If you do wish to buy one then you might look at Chapuis. I am personally not fond of Merkels but one can find a good deal every now and again.
Sabatti.... I have personally owned a Sabatti . It was my first ever double. a 500 NE. It shot well ,, allways. I never had any trouble with it. and it wasnt fussy what cases I reloaded with either. It regulated perfectly and THAT is what is important. A friend of mine now owns it and its still going strong and works flawlessly. It does hower kick the living daylights out of you due to being too light , balance and stock design. I added some weight in the stock and that improved things .The new ones are apparently better.
Verney Carron , Heym and Krieghhoff are all good but I'm not sure you will find one within your Budget.
Dont buy any double that you havent shot and you are not happy with that it regulates. Any double is regulated with a certain commercially available ammo. Hand loads can be created to duplicate these loads.
Caliber.... a 450/400 is in my opinion the sweetest shooting dangerous game double caliber with more than enough power to take care of Buffalo.
a 470 will also do but it has considerably more recoil.
Lastly , before I get crucified by the Double elite because I did or did not mention their favourite make... in 27 years I have seen most makes of doubles being used. I have seen problems with most all of them , including the very expensive English and Belgian doubles.
Buy a double and shoot it....LOTS

My 5 cents worth......

 

[mikecatt13]

Red Leg touched on this.

What happens when your best opportunity at the buff of a lifetime is 125 yards away. What happens when he is 75 yards away but in deep shadow on an overcast day. Is the desire to hunt with a double going to pressure you to take a shot you may not be completely comfortable with.

If you buy a double, take the 458 Lott with you. Have a tracker carry it. Take a decent scope. Preferably one with an illuminated dot for dark shadows. It may increase your chances/opportunities significantly.

Or...and I know this is going to drive some people nuts...buy a blaser S2 or Krieggoff and run a 1-4, 1-5, 1-6, etc on it.

First, only you can decide when or if a double is right for your finances. I was told the same, use something else and hunt more animals, but my double is one of my favorite possessions and I couldnt be happier with the decision. And its yet to even see Africa due to covid.

2nd, there are certainly many more folks on here that have forgotten more about doubles than I've learned, but with patience you can absolutely find a Blaser S2 near your budget. They have great triggers, balance and feel amazing, and are extremely safe and versatile. I LOVE mine and woudlnt trade it for an classic English double of comparable cost *gasp, I know*. I've heard nothing but good things about krieghoff as well, they seem quite easy to add optics but to my knowledge are not user adjustable for regulation like the S2, but clearly can be had in good shape for under $10k

That's all I can personally attest to with doubles and my short journey so far with them, hope it helps

 

[Tanks]

You must see the learner PH's doing the hippo test, they sit in an actual canoe floating on a little puddle. The 'hippo' attacks from behind and they have to swive and shoot it. Most go for a swim.

Can't be good for their rifles.

 

[IvW]

Can't be good for their rifles.

Should be if that is what you choose to use.....

 

[gbflyer]

Great information. I once ignorantly inquired on another forum why there isn’t an “affordable” double for us USA wanna-be’s in something such as 45/70 with all the new machining processes available today. I quickly got my head handed to me on the virtual scene. I’ll keep hoping. I could lay out the cash for a real one but my wife would hand me my head the old fashioned way.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Great information. I once ignorantly inquired on another forum why there isn’t an “affordable” double for us USA wanna-be’s in something such as 45/70 with all the new machining processes available today. I quickly got my head handed to me on the virtual scene. I’ll keep hoping. I could lay out the cash for a real one but my wife would hand me my head the old fashioned way.

There is a limited market for safari doubles I should think, and there are quite a few players. USA manufacturers couldn't compete with Baikal on price, and there are so many reasonable manufacturers in next tier up like Chapuis, Sabatti etc. Then come the Krieghoff's, Merkels and Heyms who have the mechanical manufacture sorted out and great styling too. Then at the stratospheric end the hand mades like Rigby, Westley Richards, Holland and Holland and the European bespokes.
A USA maker if there was one apart from Searcy would battle to win external clients I should think, they would not only have to be very good, but also endure the market acceptance wilderness.
Even if I had the money I would not spend it on a stratospheric double because I think the likes of Heym are ahead on engineering functionality anyway and the gap on workmanship is so narrow now that I would battle to justify the difference.

 

[Philip Glass]

This was a suggestion in a different post by another member, but DSC’s camp talk has classified ads at the end with a lot of big bore rifles for sale. I don’t see anything in this issue, but in one of the recent issues there was an ad for a Blaser S2 500 NE for $5000. Looking back on past issues a lot of quality rifles go for sale there.

Great point. DSC’s monthly has some interesting guns for sale.

 

[Philip Glass]

Speaking of calibers that is a question in itself. I have a 458 Lott but apparently rimeless.cartridges are less than ideal in double rifles. What is the most common and easiest to aquire ammo for? It looks to me like the 470NE seems to be pretty standard.

Yes .470 is the most common. When buying a double the ability to sell it easily is also a factor for most. If you buy an off brand (sorry) you’ll have less resale value if you ever want to unload it. Many, many folks buy a double and then sell it in a few years. Think about that in your decision.

 

[Philip Glass]

The 470 hits hard .

It hits me hard that’s for sure

 

[Philip Glass]

OU DG rifles are just fine if you can find one, and they are inherently far easier to regulate or use with optical sights. I currently own two and several others have passed through the gun room over the years. There are just not many in the classic rimmed forties, because the Brits were able to define the dangerous game double in East Africa following the loss of Germany's colonies at the end of WWII.

A rimmed caliber is indeed best, though I regularly shoot a .375 H&H double that has never bobbled.
For that sort of money, I would look for a Continental double - Heym, Krieghoff, Blaser, Merkel, or Verney-Carron of recent manufacture. All five are far superior to a Sabatti. Most are probably going to be ok due to limited use.

There are lots of pre-war Birmingham made English boxlocks floating from hand-to-hand in your price range. In my experience, at least three-quarters will have some sort of issue (usually a very expensive issue) not readily apparent to an uneducated buyer. There are few bargains with double rifles and never any steals. Caveat emptor.

I personally would urge you to hunt your first buffalo with a rifle with which you are totally familiar and absolutely capable of precise accuracy. As a client picking a fight with a buffalo, your first and overriding responsibility is to put that first shot exactly where it needs to go - not close but exactly. Do it and everyone goes home to toast your kill. Screw that up, and you may get the opportunity to live with the responsibility of watching your PH or tracker be badly injured or worse. I have a dear friend who has been a PH in Zim and Moz for many years, and he always says that the one thing that truly terrifies him is a client on a first time buffalo hunt with his new double.

More practically, you will have to have the self-discipline to pass on a lot of opportunities. That is hard on our relatively short hunts these days - particularly a wilderness area hunt. Even at sixty yards trying to put a bullet through a tight window in the brush into the right spot on the right buffalo of a group of three standing together in the shade is a challenge with a bolt action equipped with superb optics - much less a double with salad plate accuracy at that range equipped with a big white bead.

Yep

 

[Philip Glass]

It took me about a year and a half to get a response from Chapuis (through an Australian agent and contacting them directly) regarding an ejection issue with a double that was purchased new. Very well built rifle, but after sales service is none existent.

This is the problem. It is a DG gun. It must work 100% correctly or it should not be taken on a DG hunt.

 

[Philip Glass]

That is sage advise I would say. I will likely hunt this first buffalo with my trusty 458 lott. I have not been able to kill anything with it yet but I have ran over 150rounds through it practicing. I carried it as a back up on a Kodiak bear hunt. My friend is a resident and he drew a tag so we spent 11 days in the bush on a DIY Kodiak hunt. Luckily I did not have to use it but in training up for that hunt I shot well over 100 rounds through it and at 50yds I could keep all of the shots on an 8" steel plate free hand firing it as fast as I could work the bolt and send them. I plan to put in a good deal more practice between now and time for this buffalo hunt.

Sounds like you have a good buffalo gun. Wait until you can afford a quality double for now. Just my advice.
I paid $15K for my Kgun because I really wanted to take my rhino with a double. It worked out but I can’t recommend it for everyone.

 

[Philip Glass]

I will likely shoot my lott on this hunt but I will most likely shoot it with iron sights. I'll be bringing 2 CZ 550. In in 375 and one in 458 Lott. I'll have at least one optic in QD rings with me and possibly 2. I did order a Peep and partridge sight to see how that works with the 458. I had my 375 consistently on steel plates at 400yds the other day with the express sights. I couldn't believe it. Running the 235gr speer with 80gr of CFE it is a laser and the 300yd leaf is actually on at about 330yd and the 200 is closer.to 250. The 100yd covers me easily out to 200 with this load. To put a little perspective on things, I live about 10 min from a 400yd rifle range and I get to practice A LOT!. With the addition of it being a bit of a "good old boy" range that I have been a member of for about 10years I get a little extra freedom of movement when I'm the only one there so I can do various shooting drills and run sprints up and down the range and shoot and such shenanigans as that. Now I have never stood 40yds from a cape buffalo so I may totally shit myself when the time comes, but my PH whomever it may be now that Phil has passed away, can bet that I will be one of the most well prepared clients he has ever had. Plus having been in some tight spots before when the quarry was shooting back at you helps to steady the nerves somewhat. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast! Words to LIVE by I assure you!

You nailed it! Practice, practice, practice.

 

[AZDAVE]

Been sitting here trying to decide where to start a reply.

1st welcome to considering the world of doubles. They are my favorite hunting rifle hands down. having said that you have to have the discipline to not take shots that are outside the rifles limitations, or the shooters. There will be some animals that you will have to pass on that would be a chip shot with a scoped rifle. so if your brain is wired to accept the limitations you can delve into what to buy.

With your budget of 8 K you very much limit yourself on a decent reliable double. You can get a nice, accurate Chapuis UGEX or RGEX in 9.3x74 that would fit the bill at the entry level of DG calibers. There are other makers but having shot many different ones my choice would be a Chapuis. to get into the 450/400 and larger class of rounds you will find that most decent double will start off in the 11-16K range and you will get a solid rifle. When you step into the 20K and up range you get a more refined rifle.

You have a good grasp on the need to practice the manual of arms and practice, practice, practice and shoot your double it feels like and extension of your arms.

Doubles are a different animal when it comes to loading for them, that would best be covered with a knowledgeable double shooter in a long phone call.

All this being said I would recommend you take your CZ on your first DG hunt and get some experience with the tracking in the bush and a feel for what the normal shooting conditions would be. save till you have the 11-20K budget for a double and take it on future safari's.

 

[IvW]

Can't be good for their rifles.

Should be if that is what you choose to use.....

Sounds like you have a good buffalo gun. Wait until you can afford a quality double for now. Just my advice.
I paid $15K for my Kgun because I really wanted to take my rhino with a double. It worked out but I can’t recommend it for everyone.

What the K gun or hunting the Rhino? I think the first?

 

[MikeW]

Given the multiple comments on "fit" in this thread, buying a double online and having it shipped to your local dealer may not be the best idea.

I have an eye on a couple doubles at Champlin and seems a road trip is advisable to get the LOP, and possibly the cast fitted correctly.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

Given the multiple comments on "fit" in this thread, buying a double online and having it shipped to your local dealer may not be the best idea.

I have an eye on a couple doubles at Champlin and seems a road trip is advisable to get the LOP, and possibly the cast fitted correctly.

100%. Obviously each to their own, but for me to pay big money for something that isnt correct, which translates to instinctive shooting under stress, is a waste of that money. I am taking this seriously on my upcoming double purchase. First I will visit the local SA agent and see what he has, you never know, there may be a perfect fit in stock. If not Ill get fitted and order exactly what I want. As a last resort I will fly to the factory in Europe and get fitted. A double is either perfect or it will never be satisfying.

 

[K E Johnson]

I agree with Kevin Peacocke completely.
I have wanted a double for many years. I can afford one at this point if it is the right one. I went to look at a used .416 Rigby that was custom made on a Dakota 76 action. Serial number is African 76. It fit me perfectly And I bought it. The gentleman selling it also had a Rigby box lock in .470 NE.
Price was good, but it did not fit like the .416. My first trip to Africa will most likely be without a double. I still would like to make it happen at some point.

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

I agree with Kevin Peacocke completely.
I have wanted a double for many years. I can afford one at this point if it is the right one. I went to look at a used .416 Rigby that was custom made on a Dakota 76 action. Serial number is African 76. It fit me perfectly And I bought it. The gentleman selling it also had a Rigby box lock in .470 NE.
Price was good, but it did not fit like the .416. My first trip to Africa will most likely be without a double. I still would like to make it happen at some point.

Hi KE Johnson, you may want to check out the Heym89b, British styling, German engineering and has the all important Greener bolt. That is what I intend to get, their Africa model in 375 Flanged.