A thorough conversation with Swarovski - Conclusion: Rookhawk knows nothing and is wrong about everything

[Beck]

also I gotta tel you, if you haven't looked at a Meopta lately you're making a mistake - not quite a swarovski, but very close

 

[WAB]

]][emoji[emoji6]][emoji6][emoji[emoji6]]" data-quote="Ruraldoc" data-source="post: 0" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

That descibes hunting in Alabama and Mississippi for deer and hogs perfectly.

Agreed. It’s quite a shock when you see a buck in full light.

 

[Hunting Hitman]

]][emoji[emoji6]][emoji6][emoji6]" data-quote="SaintPanzer" data-source="post: 0" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

Boy, they sure are going to be disappointed I took my binos with me to Afghanistan...

SAVAGE!…I love it.

HH

 

[One Day...]

Yes, @One Day... had a very detailed explanation of all this in one of his posts on a thread but I can't remember which one.

The formula is simple: the diameter of light beam coming out of the ocular = the diameter of the objective / (divided by) the magnification.

56 mm objective / 8 magnification = 7 mm light beam through the ocular
42 mm objective / 6 magnification = 7 mm light beam through the ocular
24 mm objective / 3.5 magnification = 7 mm light beam through the ocular

7 mm is the maximum size the human pupil can dilate at dusk or dawn.

3 mm is the typical human pupil size in full sunlight. This is why a 1-8 x 24 DG scope works in full daylight (24 mm objective / 8 magnification = 3 mm light beam through the ocular), but why it must be cranked down to ~3x at dusk or dawn.

This is why typical European variable, when science still has something to do with product design, were 1.5-6x42 (standard optic for stalking); 2-8x56 (specialized optic for dawn or dusk - and sometimes night - stand hunting; 125-4x20 (typical for driven wild board and DG); etc.

 

[Yukontom]

I agree, they would do themselves a credit to get a fixed 4x and practice.

First of all I don't think we (the majority of us anyway) should shoot at game much past 400 yards and rarely at that. But we do have rifles that are capable, and I have pulled it off. I think WAB was amazed that anyone would bother dialing a turret at that range which I also agree with. So I guess this means we don't really need turrets for hunting if we know our rifle and practice. New shooters today however seem to maybe be caught up in the technology and like dials and buttons to play with. Us old school folks seem to like the KISS principal. And also see beauty and elegance in simplicity.

 

[V.Veritas]

7 mm is the maximum size the human pupil can dilate at dusk or dawn.

Also, with aging the pupil flexibility decreases and after 50 years of age rarely can dilate over 5mm. So it can't use all the light beam that a younger eye can.

 

[Yukontom]

"POS Leupod"........wow.......

Almost every big game animal I have successfully hunted has been with a Leupold scope. I started that way about 50 plus years ago and never found a reason to change. I do however have a beat up pair of Swarovski binos that have been around the world in the last 20 years plus and are still awesome.

 

[Ruraldoc]

I have not bought a new Swarovski rifle scope in several years.

I have bought and had good luck with several Meoptas, especially the higher end ones.

Hunting in low light in fields in Alabama and Mississippi, I use Euro scopes with bold or illuminated reticles. If the scope has a 42 mm objective, I set it at 6 power.

If it had a 50mm objective, it gets set at 7 power. , and a 56 mm scope gets set at 8 power.

This gives me a 7mm exit pupil with all of them and will allow shots well into the nighttime when you have a clear sky and decent moon light. It is legal to hunt hogs all night here so you get to see how scopes do in low light hunting situations.

In Africa, most hunting is done in daylight unless you are on a special night hunt.

Scopes with smaller objectives are totally at home, I am a little more comfortable traveling with the smaller scopes as well.

I used a Trijicon 1-6x24 on my 416 and a Ziess 3-12x42 on my 308. These two scopes are worth looking at in todays market.

Both have held zero perfectly and the optics are very good as well. Both sell for a fraction of the price of comparable Swarovskis.

The Green Triangle reticle in the Trijicon had to be used in the field to be appreciated.

At 1x, the scope is just the thing for dangerous game and is a fast as a red dot or open sights. At 6x, it’s good out at least 300 yards. Trijicon says it will handle the recoil of any of the big African cartridges. The eye relief is listed at 3.9 inches but is very forgiving and mine is set around 4.25 inches and works well for me.

 

[PerH]

Primarily a European thing. I was shooting a blaser topped by Swarovski with a 56 mm objective lens in Romania. It fit well as the stock was set up for it. On my first stag it made no difference over a more typical scope. My second stag was before first light. The stag was roaring as he walked up the side of a meadow. That scope made all the difference.

I will say, the first time I lived in Wyoming legal shooting ran until an hour after sundown. That’s pretty dang dark!

A 2,5-10x or 3-12x either 50 or 56 is much favored as a allround scope by many due to the dusk dawn one . With the newer types like 3-15x56 of a compact version it’s also quite useful .

But not to speak about Swaro for a sec here , but there is a 2-10x42 illuminated one made by the famous spy camera maker that make one think would be good as day / dusk scope .

But I have used a 3-12x42 as dusk dawn also . When that got dark it was truly flash light dark to find road out of there .

 

[frankdes]

Last weekend I had a lengthy conversation with the region's swarovksi rep and we talked about a lot of different things, but basically the summary was nothing I want is available and they have no intention of making more of what I deemed fantastic. A few of the highlights of the conversation:

1.) My premise: The z6i 1-6x24mm EE was the finest optic ever made. They are selling for 200%-300% of original MSRP new in the box. Swarovski's position is nobody wanted them and they lose FOV, they believe FOV is the key trait. They stated "how much eye relief do you really need anyway?". My response was two fold, one that 5" allows you to scope large bore rifles and its literally the only one that exists. I don't enjoy close scopes on 458Lott and up rifles. My second point was that for stalking rifles, it gave the opportunity to come up for a snap shot like a shotgun, rather than seeking for good eye relief that introduces hesitation. They politely disagreed. They said if I bought 1500 of them, roughly $3.3m USD, they'd make me anything I want. I asked for a practical number minimum order and I'd maybe do just that, but they wouldn't give me a reasonable number. They did mention they sold some sort of rail mount scope in the USA and literally sold 4 units of them, but they didn't want to make another EE.

2.) My second topic was that the 3-9x36mm z3 was a bargain and perfect for stalking rifles at <$700 for a great optic. The weight and size allowed low rings and was appropriate for kipplaufs, falling blocks, and lightweight bolt guns. Their response was the 42mm is barely bigger, so they are just sticking with that one.

3.) My third point was that we were standing next to a rack of London made safari rifles worth about $400,000. For those rifles, people take pride in traditional rings and a low or extra low ring that brings the sight picture in line with the stock geometry and iron sights. That means a scope like the z8i 1-8x24mm with the 30mm tube should be brought back, because aesthetically and functionally people spending premium money on safari and stalking rifles do not want 34mm rings, nor do they want the extra height, nor do they want to use hideously ugly tactical rings. You really have very few options in fine gun rings in 34mm whereas there is a plethora of rings for the 1" and 30mm offerings that are appropriate for Rigbys, Dakotas, and all the other typical safari rifles. Swarovski's answer was that I should just buy ugly 34mm rings, or I could pay $5500-$8000 and have someone like Rigby or Holland build new custom 34mm rings and mounts to accomodate their new tube sizes rather than offering an industry standard 30mm scope appropriate for the task. Another lovely scope option now discontinued.

4.) My fourth question was "what happened to the Kahles Helia lineup?" because they had nice small bells for stalking rifles, or they had straight tube 4x and 5x options for double rifles, drillings, kipplaufs, etc. Their response was they are still made for the EU market because Vortex and Leupold do not have a presence, but they are no longer imported to the USA. I asked if I bought them in the EU, would they support them for repairs? The answer is no, it would be deemed gray market.

I'm being told that the market doesn't demand what I like and that I'm in the minority. Maybe that's correct, but Swarovski also spent decades building a reputation as a true hunter's optic company. The brochures would show old gentleman hunting chamois with kipplaufs, trachten jackets, tyrollian hats on their heads. It suggested quality and tradition, that was their reputation. They no longer make the products that are compatible with the lifestyles and firearms they loved to feature in their ad copy of the past ten years, now showing bench rest plastic rifles and gigantic glass in their ad copy.

I suggested they cannibalized their own market, too many SKUs, reticles, illuminations, and that dilution resulted in too few units sold of these storied products. They also didn't offer the lineup above to the right dealers, the bespoke makers and the Dakota/Rigby/et al dealers that know how to use the right rings, mounts, and optics for the tasks at hand. They remained unpersuaded and closed the conversation showing me their new Western Hunter long-range scope with ballistic turrets for shooting elk at 700 yards. Clearly, they are selling into the sniper and long range hunter industry where every other brand has a large presence as well.

I'm not here to shoot the messenger, Swarovski has the right to do whatever they wish, I'm just saddened that the best optic company in the world has discontinued 100% of the optics that I have come to love over the past 20 years. I honestly think part of the problem is most dealers in fine rifles don't even understand stock-to-optic fit so they aren't advocating for what is proper and correct for their rifles either.

Any way you slice it, Swarovski has products that are now directly in line with Vortex, Leupold, and Nightforce but none of the useful outliers that they were known for over the past many decades.

If you need Kahles, drop a message
Frank

 

[Yukontom]

Much of this discussion has diverted away from the manufacturers toward magnification and other scope characteristics. In that vein any users here and in general today are favoring large light gathering objective lenses which can be a good thing and OK for Africa, which is the point of this forum. But many of us have, or may be, planning to go on a wilderness hunt on horseback. As a former (too old now) participant in many pack trips I have seen more than once, an issue getting large high mounted scopes into outfitters rifle scabbards. For horseback hunting I would always go with a scope no larger than 40mm and/or bring your own fitted and broken in scabbard. Just sayin.

 

[ZG47]

Also, with aging the pupil flexibility decreases and after 50 years of age rarely can dilate over 5mm. So it can't use all the light beam that a younger eye can.

A larger exit pupil is a critical factor in obtaining a decent eyebox.

 

[rookhawk]

Much of this discussion has diverted away from the manufacturers toward magnification and other scope characteristics. In that vein any users here and in general today are favoring large light gathering objective lenses which can be a good thing and OK for Africa, which is the point of this forum. But many of us have, or may be, planning to go on a wilderness hunt on horseback. As a former (too old now) participant in many pack trips I have seen more than once, an issue getting large high mounted scopes into outfitters rifle scabbards. For horseback hunting I would always go with a scope no larger than 40mm and/or bring your own fitted and broken in scabbard. Just sayin.

Most people don’t understand the light gathering math which leads to a fallacy you need big glass.

Men over 35 year’s old can typically get about 5.5mm of pupil dilation. Meaning, that’s as much light as you can let into your eye. So hypothetically, a 60mm exit objective lens on an optic may present no more light gathering than a 24mm objective.

Here’s how that math works:

Swarovski 3-9x36mm scope. 36mm / 5.5mm your eye can absorb = 6.54x. So that scope at twilight is giving you all the light you can use at 6.54 magnification.

Swarovski 1-6x24mm scope. 24mm / 5.5mm your eye can absorb = 4.36x.

2-10x42mm scope. 42mm / 5.5mm your eye can absorb = 7.63x.

Perhaps some of you will have an “a-ha” moment here. If you’re shooting leopard or black bear at twilight, what power are you setting a scope for that 75 yard shot? Yeah, probably 2.5x to 3x zoom. In that situation, ALL the above scopes are going to work just fine. Inside of 200 yards, 4x is sufficient for many people, in which case the light gathering and zoom are far greater than most peoples tolerance to take a long shot in low light.

I’ve never found a straight tube optic of high quality at 4x, 5x, 6x to be lacking for the distances I shoot. YMMV.

 

[ZG47]

"POS Leupod"........wow.......

During the late 1980s and past 1990, as I recall, the Leupold M8 6x42 was their only model with fully multicoated optics. Everything else was fully coated, as in single coatings on exterior lens surfaces i.e., the ocular and objective lens surfaces that the user can touch.
Part of this was an apparent hatred of spending money on up to date technology. When the company moved into making high end optics with 30mm tube's and big lenses, they initially used old production machinery and consequently experienced a disgraceful rate of warranty returns. Reliable waterproofing is good but ... they have cruised on their reputation at times.

 

[Yukontom]

Most people don’t understand the light gathering math which leads to a fallacy you need big glass.

Men over 35 year’s old can typically get about 5.5mm of pupil dilation. Meaning, that’s as much light as you can let into your eye. So hypothetically, a 60mm exit objective lens on an optic may present no more light gathering than a 24mm objective.

Here’s how that math works:

Swarovski 3-9x36mm scope. 36mm / 5.5mm your eye can absorb = 6.54x. So that scope at twilight is giving you all the light you can use at 6.54 magnification.

Swarovski 1-6x24mm scope. 24mm / 5.5mm your eye can absorb = 4.36x.

2-10x42mm scope. 42mm / 5.5mm your eye can absorb = 7.63x.

Perhaps some of you will have an “a-ha” moment here. If you’re shooting leopard or black bear at twilight, what power are you setting a scope for that 75 yard shot? Yeah, probably 2.5x to 3x zoom. In that situation, ALL the above scopes are going to work just fine. Inside of 200 yards, 4x is sufficient for many people, in which case the light gathering and zoom are far greater than most peoples tolerance to take a long shot in low light.

I’ve never found a straight tube optic of high quality at 4x, 5x, 6x to be lacking for the distances I shoot. YMMV.

Thanks for the math lesson and I completely agree. I hunt Whitetails on a wooded lease with some friends and there is not a scope in the group over 8 power. Once we sight them in we hunt with them on 1.5 or 2X or whatever the minimum power setting is. Long shots can be a little over 100 yds and no problem.

 

[WAB]

The formula is simple: the diameter of light beam coming out of the ocular = the diameter of the objective / (divided by) the magnification.

56 mm objective / 8 magnification = 7 mm light beam through the ocular
42 mm objective / 6 magnification = 7 mm light beam through the ocular
24 mm objective / 3.5 magnification = 7 mm light beam through the ocular

7 mm is the maximum size the human pupil can dilate at dusk or dawn.

3 mm is the typical human pupil size in full sunlight. This is why a 1-8 x 24 DG scope works in full daylight (24 mm objective / 8 magnification = 3 mm light beam through the ocular), but why it must be cranked down to ~3x at dusk or dawn.

This is why typical European variable, when science still has something to do with product design, were 1.5-6x42 (standard optic for stalking); 2-8x56 (specialized optic for dawn or dusk - and sometimes night - stand hunting; 125-4x20 (typical for driven wild board and DG); etc.

All absolutely correct. However these formulas present the maximum possible outcome. Actual transmission is reduced by quality of glass (none are perfect so all reduce transmission), lens coatings, and number of lenses. A variable, by definition, cannot transmit as much light as a fixed power scope of like magnification, lens quality and coating.

 

[rookhawk]

All absolutely correct. However these formulas present the maximum possible outcome. Actual transmission is reduced by quality of glass (none are perfect so all reduce transmission), lens coatings, and number of lenses. A variable, by definition, cannot transmit as much light as a fixed power scope of like magnification, lens quality and coating.

Add to that, 30 year olds best case have 5.5mm pupil aperture, maximum. Every decade on average you lose .4mm more.

 

[Hyena]

Indeed. If they'd make a single EE (the z8i 30mm with the illuminated circle/#4 combo would be logical) and a 3-9x36mm with a #4, they would have a solution in those two SKUs for 90% of the use cases presented on this forum. Both of these options have no industry competition, suggesting 100% of the demand would be satisfied by Swarovski rather than the entire market vying for a customer.

I absolutely love my Z8i on my Blaser. YES, it looks slightly different, but can’t beat the optic.
Purchased the Exos byS&B and could not find a good mounting solution for the R93, only a COMPROMISE. Yes, the Germans don’t care to change. I am German and deal with it. Will continue to look at Zeiss, Steiner, and Swaro until I find what works for me on my barrel scope configuration.