.470 NE Reloads and Fillers?

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Still Apples / Oranges

So my second go around on this I went up to 89gr of RL15 with a backer rod filler cut to approximately 0.7". This was only good for about 2060fps out of my rifle.

I went back to IMR7977 which according to the Hodgdon website with a 114.3gr load would put me at 2040fps or thereabouts. So I thought I'd get a good comparison. But as @Bullthrower338 and @tarbe will confirm, this is a strange powder. I still got about 2160fps from these two loads.

So recoil was still stronger with the IMR load, at least in part due to velocity. What I did notice was that the RL15 load had a noticeable increase in recoil at 89gr and faster velocity over the 87/88gr loads. I can only guess that while the "calculated" recoil may still be more if the velocities were the same using the RL15 lighter load versus H4831 or the IMR7977 heavier load, I'm not sure the "felt" recoil would be appreciably different. But your mileage may vary as they say.

I think I do like the idea however of using the slower 86gr RL15 load for about 2000fps as a practice round. POI is roughly the same as with the faster rounds while recoil at that point is appreciably less. And based off the info I have the pressures are low enough to be safe for a DR.

 

[chuck degone]

Concerning fillers, the use of synthetic materials like foam or Dacron has always concerned me in that although they may not burn as such, they may very well partially vaporize under the heat of combustion and then solidify on the first cool surface they encounter, namely the bore of the gun.Under repeated firings using said fillers, that fouling may build up. The same thing happens when firing lead bullets that are under size/too soft/out of round/ poorly lubed or fired at too high of pressures/velocities. This fouling will increase and can leave the bore looking like the inside of a lead pipe. To be clear the heat of combustion is literally vaporizing lead from the base and sides of the bullet and that vapor solidifies on whatever cool surface it finds. It generally takes +800*F to vaporize lead, I don't see foam or Dacron with standing that and not knowing how it was going to affect the gun or if it could even be removed, I stopped using it (Dacron). This left me looking for a replacement to use in light loads for my 45/70 pistol. What I found is called Puff-Lon, a fine granular cellulose product. Its very easy to use, after prepping and priming the case, I charge it with powder, fill the case to the mouth with Puff-Lon and then seat the bullet. The results have been excellent. My load consisted of 29 gr.s of 2400 and a Speer 300gr. HP. With no filler the average velocity at 10 ft was 1661 fps, extreme spread was 210 fps, and standard deviation was 117 fps. Accuracy was at best fair. Adding 2 gr.s of Dacron improved the load, 1645 fps, SD 27, ES 15. Accuracy was improved to good. Using Puff-Lon got me, 1665 fps, Es 22, SD 11. Accuracy is good enough now I use it for hunting.
Granted the 45-70 Gov is not the 470 NE, but if I were loading for a 470 of my own, I would not be using something in it that is likely leave a very nasty residue behind. Just my opinion and experience.

 

[DrBob]

Concerning fillers, the use of synthetic materials like foam or Dacron has always concerned me in that although they may not burn as such, they may very well partially vaporize under the heat of combustion and then solidify on the first cool surface they encounter, namely the bore of the gun.Under repeated firings using said fillers, that fouling may build up. The same thing happens when firing lead bullets that are under size/too soft/out of round/ poorly lubed or fired at too high of pressures/velocities. This fouling will increase and can leave the bore looking like the inside of a lead pipe. To be clear the heat of combustion is literally vaporizing lead from the base and sides of the bullet and that vapor solidifies on whatever cool surface it finds. It generally takes +800*F to vaporize lead, I don't see foam or Dacron with standing that and not knowing how it was going to affect the gun or if it could even be removed, I stopped using it (Dacron). This left me looking for a replacement to use in light loads for my 45/70 pistol. What I found is called Puff-Lon, a fine granular cellulose product. Its very easy to use, after prepping and priming the case, I charge it with powder, fill the case to the mouth with Puff-Lon and then seat the bullet. The results have been excellent. My load consisted of 29 gr.s of 2400 and a Speer 300gr. HP. With no filler the average velocity at 10 ft was 1661 fps, extreme spread was 210 fps, and standard deviation was 117 fps. Accuracy was at best fair. Adding 2 gr.s of Dacron improved the load, 1645 fps, SD 27, ES 15. Accuracy was improved to good. Using Puff-Lon got me, 1665 fps, Es 22, SD 11. Accuracy is good enough now I use it for hunting.
Granted the 45-70 Gov is not the 470 NE, but if I were loading for a 470 of my own, I would not be using something in it that is likely leave a very nasty residue behind. Just my opinion and experience.

I have shot hundreds of loads with foam and no ill effect. Kynock shatters to granular "grit". The back rod has flame retardants. Puff-Lon is plastic also and being a powder with more surface area would be even more prone to melting. The gas flame is jetting around the margins of the lead bullet if too small. Need around 0.002 greater diameter of cast lead bullet to seal. Think of the 0-rings of the Shuttle SRB's.... sustained integrity in the face of prolonged exposure to hot gases because of the gaseous barrier...... the seal it the thing... no seal or poor seal and things burn.... sealed and survives.

 

[bruce moulds]

chuck,
how many shots per string in you s.d and e.s. numbers?
bruce.

 

[chuck degone]

Hey Bruce, when testing new combinations I generally shoot 3 shot strings until I find something promising , then refine the load until I find the optimum balance of accuracy, velocity, and consistency. Sometimes it happens quickly, but more often than not it takes dozens of rounds until I'm satisfied.
As far as the make up of Puff-Lon, their literature states that it is made from pure cellulose and the ingredients are 100% natural with no synthetics. Think wood fiber ground incredibly small. It also contains molybdenum disulfide and an anti-build-up agent. So far the only negative I've encountered is that the bore seems to require a little more cleaning, but then that could be me, I'm a stickler for a clean bore.
Concerning backer rod, I had only read of it in passing years ago as something that had been used in the old British cartridges, rather like carded wool was (577/450). Did not realize it was something that was still available, so when you wrote foam I thought styrofoam, polystyrene, etc.. Not something I'd want inside a cartridge.
Just out of curiosity, have you ever bore scoped the barrel? I have seen the build of plastics in shotguns (wads) and muzzle loaders (sabots). Very obvious, but the build up of resin from foam might be far more subtle. Not implying anything negative, just curious. Also, if anyone has ever had a serious negative experience with Puff-Lon I'd like to hear of it, always learning.

 

[fourfive8]

Yes, plastic shotgun wads do and I assume ML sabots can leave a film or skin of plastic on the bore surface. I quit plastic ML sabots and modern MLs LONG ago, after a little experimenting and have stayed with traditional or original MLs firing felt base wads for solid conicals, cloth patches for round balls and simple Crisco lubed Miniés. Shotgun wad plastic residue film in a bore is well known and easily visible without a scope and is fairly easily dealt with using the right types of cleaning tools.

However, I have shot thousands of rounds of cast bullets with smokeless and low density Dacron fill in many different rifles and have never seen or noticed any melted plastic or other odd residue in the bore as a result- None. I believe as DrBob, simply won't happen under normal circumstances.

Also, bore leading is a different process altogether. It is not simply the burning powder charge melting lead off the bullet base and sides and depositing it in the bore. It is more like gas cutting and ablation in the throat and leade area. Then the tiny lead particles and colloidal lead are carried within the plasma and deposited on the bore surface. Subsequent shots then can ablate more lead progressively as each bullet passes over the lead deposits. The physics of the process may not be intuitive at all. There is a difference between temperature and specific heat as it applies to solids and plasmas.

 

[DrBob]

Still Apples / Oranges

So my second go around on this I went up to 89gr of RL15 with a backer rod filler cut to approximately 0.7". This was only good for about 2060fps out of my rifle.

I went back to IMR7977 which according to the Hodgdon website with a 114.3gr load would put me at 2040fps or thereabouts. So I thought I'd get a good comparison. But as @Bullthrower338 and @tarbe will confirm, this is a strange powder. I still got about 2160fps from these two loads.

So recoil was still stronger with the IMR load, at least in part due to velocity. What I did notice was that the RL15 load had a noticeable increase in recoil at 89gr and faster velocity over the 87/88gr loads. I can only guess that while the "calculated" recoil may still be more if the velocities were the same using the RL15 lighter load versus H4831 or the IMR7977 heavier load, I'm not sure the "felt" recoil would be appreciably different. But your mileage may vary as they say.

I think I do like the idea however of using the slower 86gr RL15 load for about 2000fps as a practice round. POI is roughly the same as with the faster rounds while recoil at that point is appreciably less. And based off the info I have the pressures are low enough to be safe for a DR.

I agree that RL15 and backer rod (dacron for that matter) can't hack it. However, H4350 does. For that and RL16 and RL17, a wad is equivalent to 3 grains of powder. While RL15 is anemic, Varget was fine. In the 470 and using a backer rod wad, Varget delivers what RL15 should have. I prefer the lighter recoil using "reduced" loads with wads plus no loose grains to tumble into smaller pieces. The other route is compressed loads. I have gotten great velocities with IMR 4955 in other rifles and plan to try with the 470. Plus temp insensitive and copper fouling remover. So many powders... so little time.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I agree that RL15 and backer rod (dacron for that matter) can't hack it. However, H4350 does. For that and RL16 and RL17, a wad is equivalent to 3 grains of powder. While RL15 is anemic, Varget was fine. In the 470 and using a backer rod wad, Varget delivers what RL15 should have. I prefer the lighter recoil using "reduced" loads with wads plus no loose grains to tumble into smaller pieces. The other route is compressed loads. I have gotten great velocities with IMR 4955 in other rifles and plan to try with the 470. Plus temp insensitive and copper fouling remover. So many powders... so little time.

I love Varget and no so much RL15. But they tend to give very similar ballistics, so I’m a little surprised at your results.

Can you share load and velocity info with Varget?

 

[DrBob]

I love Varget and no so much RL15. But they tend to give very similar ballistics, so I’m a little surprised at your results.

Can you share load and velocity info with Varget?

Merkel 470 NE... 23 1/2 barrel. Hornady/Jameson brass. I have Norma brass but saving that. Again... these are my numbers and everyone use standard workup procedures. These extract easily.

Cast lead - 500 grain. My own design with Lee making the mold. It is a variation of one I had LBT build for me and then after testing had Lee make up a bunch... I still have a few extra left. I am also playing with paper patch which promises higher velocities with softer lead for "plains" and hard alloy for something bigger (like testing by shooting into dead Cape first to see rather than "stress testing" on a live one. I am shooting for regulation in my rifle not maxing velocity. All shoot within 2" groups at 50 yards.... with cast lead less than 1" .... your regulation may differ.

Varget 500 grain cast/gas check Fed 215 1.5 gr dacron OAL 3.6"
81 gr - 2040 ES 2 fps
83 gr - 2097 ES 10 fps
85 gr - 2127 ES 2 fps
87 gr - 2164 ES 6 fps

Paper Patch 500 with Lee liquid alox coating of PP Feed 215 Hornady brass 1" yellow backer rod .... just started working up
80 gr - 2082 ES 21 fps
82 gr - 2123 ES 16 fps

Woodleigh 500 SP Kynock Fed 215 1" yellow backer rod
84 gr - 2072 ES 14 fps
86 gr - 2094 ES 29 fps
88 gr - 2118 ES 21 fps

84 gr. 2112 ES 18 fps with 1.5 dacron, CCI 250 3.860 OAL

85 gr. - 2045 ES 11 fps CCI 250, speaker foam
88 gr - 2132 ES 62 fps " "

Barnes 500 grain banded solid Fed 215 1.5 gr dacron 3.98" OAL
83 gr. - 2132 ES 6 fps
85 gr - 2146 ES 4
87 gr - 2193 ES 0

500 Hornady SP WLR 1.5 gr dacron 3.925" OAL early workup
86 gr - 2053 fps

For reference: Woodleigh 500 SP 89.1 gr RL15 Fed 215 1" gray backer rod 3.875"OAL -- 1989 fps ES 53 fps. Dismal.

I am probably reinventing the flat tire with some of these loads but fun working them up. IMR 4831 works well but feels like plain vanilla. RL17 did really well. Again... will try IMR 4955 this summer.... with 3 feet of snow right now... and near sub zero the only game to look for are "snow rhinos".

 

[Spooksar]

Merkel 470 NE... 23 1/2 barrel. Hornady/Jameson brass. I have Norma brass but saving that. Again... these are my numbers and everyone use standard workup procedures. These extract easily.

Cast lead - 500 grain. My own design with Lee making the mold. It is a variation of one I had LBT build for me and then after testing had Lee make up a bunch... I still have a few extra left. I am also playing with paper patch which promises higher velocities with softer lead for "plains" and hard alloy for something bigger (like testing by shooting into dead Cape first to see rather than "stress testing" on a live one. I am shooting for regulation in my rifle not maxing velocity. All shoot within 2" groups at 50 yards.... with cast lead less than 1" .... your regulation may differ.

Varget 500 grain cast/gas check Fed 215 1.5 gr dacron OAL 3.6"
81 gr - 2040 ES 2 fps
83 gr - 2097 ES 10 fps
85 gr - 2127 ES 2 fps
87 gr - 2164 ES 6 fps

Paper Patch 500 with Lee liquid alox coating of PP Feed 215 Hornady brass 1" yellow backer rod .... just started working up
80 gr - 2082 ES 21 fps
82 gr - 2123 ES 16 fps

Woodleigh 500 SP Kynock Fed 215 1" yellow backer rod
84 gr - 2072 ES 14 fps
86 gr - 2094 ES 29 fps
88 gr - 2118 ES 21 fps

84 gr. 2112 ES 18 fps with 1.5 dacron, CCI 250 3.860 OAL

85 gr. - 2045 ES 11 fps CCI 250, speaker foam
88 gr - 2132 ES 62 fps " "

Barnes 500 grain banded solid Fed 215 1.5 gr dacron 3.98" OAL
83 gr. - 2132 ES 6 fps
85 gr - 2146 ES 4
87 gr - 2193 ES 0

500 Hornady SP WLR 1.5 gr dacron 3.925" OAL early workup
86 gr - 2053 fps

For reference: Woodleigh 500 SP 89.1 gr RL15 Fed 215 1" gray backer rod 3.875"OAL -- 1989 fps ES 53 fps. Dismal.

I am probably reinventing the flat tire with some of these loads but fun working them up. IMR 4831 works well but feels like plain vanilla. RL17 did really well. Again... will try IMR 4955 this summer.... with 3 feet of snow right now... and near sub zero the only game to look for are "snow rhinos".

Dr Bob I find your results with RL 15 interesting, I have basically the same rifle. With 87 gr of RL 15 and 5 grs of Dacron I’m getting 2150 FPS with a Woodliegh 500 gr Solid. I think this proves the old saying that every rifle different. This load in my rifle is the best regulation load I’ve found.

 

[DrBob]

Dr Bob I find your results with RL 15 interesting, I have basically the same rifle. With 87 gr of RL 15 and 5 grs of Dacron I’m getting 2150 FPS with a Woodliegh 500 gr Solid. I think this proves the old saying that every rifle different. This load in my rifle is the best regulation load I’ve found.

It may be the 5 gr of dacron. One author felt no more than 1.5 grains dacron should be used. Ross Seyfried used a "golf ball" size of dacron in his article. However, my rifle is "slow" with IMR 4831 by about 2 grains. There are fast rifles and slow ones... you have the former and I have the latter. Both at their regulation velocities will not be discernable by a Cape or Ele.

 

[Spooksar]

It may be the 5 gr of dacron. One author felt no more than 1.5 grains dacron should be used. Ross Seyfried used a "golf ball" size of dacron in his article. However, my rifle is "slow" with IMR 4831 by about 2 grains. There are fast rifles and slow ones... you have the former and I have the latter. Both at their regulation velocities will not be discernable by a Cape or Ele.

True I’ve shot 2 Buffalo and 1 Elephant with it all went down quickly. I followed Graeme Wrights book for the 5 grs of Dacron. Main thing is it works in my rifle, may not work in another.

 

[DrBob]

For anyone reading these...Spooksar has referenced the BEST book on shooting the British Double Rifle... I have editions 2 and 3 of Graeme Wrights' book and it is SO GOOD. It borders on unobtainium now and those that have the books will hold on for dear life. If you find a copy for sale.... BUY IT!!! With the prices of older versions equal to the cost of good rifles.... it is still a great book. Maybe a 4th addition may someday grace us. I have blatantly utilitarian rifles that will drop anything in the world.... but for style and history... the double is it. As with the side by side shotgun, you may hit more with and ovcr under, but be invited back more often with a side by side.

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

I notice RL15 is being used a lot but not RL17, any particular reason for this? I would have thought RL17 might be a better choice, would most likely fill the case enough so as not to need a foam filler? And has a very similar burn rate to H4350/AR2209. Maybe I am missing something with this powder?

 

[Surgeon1]

I use IMR3031 79gr with 4gr dacron at 2145fps in a Heym with A-frames and it matches Federal factories with Woody's

 

[DrBob]

I use IMR3031 79gr with 4gr dacron at 2145fps in a Heym with A-frames and it matches Federal factories with Woody's

3031 is VERY problematic and while an old time recipe... I would strongly recommend using a slower powder. Several people have blown their rifles with this.

See Magnum magazine from ZA.

 

[DrBob]

I notice RL15 is being used a lot but not RL17, any particular reason for this? I would have thought RL17 might be a better choice, would most likely fill the case enough so as not to need a foam filler? And has a very similar burn rate to H4350/AR2209. Maybe I am missing something with this powder?

Good point. I have worked up loads with Varget, Rl15, Rl16, Rl17, 4350's, 4831s and H100V and 4955 plus a few more. Anything faster than 4831s benefits from a wad. Yes you can increase powder charge by about 3 grains for the RL16, Rl17 and 4350's without using a wad but less cost and better ignition with a wad (foam or dacron). Rl15/Varget level needs a wad. My Merkel is slow with Rl15 but spot on with Varget. Below are MY rifles recipes... usually safety precautions YMMV

Rl17:
500 gr DGX / Fed 215 /foam wad - 96 gr 2121 fps/ES 9. 1.2" groups at 50 yards.
99 gr ..no wad.. 2146 fps/ES 55 3.5'
500 gr Woodleight soft/215/foam - 95 gr 2113 fps/ES 8 2.9" at 50

Even the type of open cell foam makes a difference. The Kynock are the be$t but I use open cell backer rod.... 1 cent for 1" wad.

Rl17 is a Swiss powder that was used for the 7.5 Swiss round. The deterent is mixed into the powder and not just a surface coating. It has a more even burn and pressure excursions are less. In certain modern rounds, it can generate about 100 fps more (or even more) with no pressure problems. (6mmBR site). So, yes Rl17 is an excellent powder for the 470.

 

[SStomcat]

I also have a Krieghoff Classic in cal 470
I have done a bit of testing my ammo.
I tryed Barnes VOR-TX with 500 grs TSX, Vo 2150 fps this one spread to much (4")
My best loads are with 500 grs Woodleigh Weldcore RNSN loaded with the Vhitavuori N-150 91,5 grs this gives a Vo in my rifle 2130 and the 2 bullets from both barells are in the same hole.
This load are my first to go with on a Safari.
I`m gonna try the A-Frame bullets with 90,0 grs N-150, I'm not using any filler in my cartridges.
The N-150 are in the same burning rate as the H4350 and RL17.

I also tried 106 grs Norma MRP and this was also spreading to much, I have some more to go before I reach the max load.

Is there any of you guys that have some more input?

The burning rate are from Vhitavuori Burning rate Chart. USE WITH CAUTIONS!!

I'm a newbie when it comes to reloading but have gained lots of perspective reading every thread possible on the subject over the months. I have also bought all the necessary equipment and just waiting for the weather to cool down a bit before starting.
My question is regarding powders, I have bought some that I could find load data for, like RL-15, Rl-19, VT -170, IMR 3031 all 1 pounders (as I'm not sure which one will regulate well in my Krieghoff 470 Big five. (Mine is factory regulated with Norma with woodleighs) I also bought a 8 pounder of H4831 as well. I have two questions for the folks here with a plethora of knowledge and experience -

1. Do you think this is good enough for the short term? Do plan to shoot more than 50 ~ 100 rounds a month initially?

2. I have also found VT N-150, should I get some of this as well or pass?I see gentleman above having good results so I"m tempted, but have not being able to find any load data on this powder.

Many thanks and cheers!

 

[Rare Breed]

I am by no means a DR expert, but I am going to advise you to NOT shoot more than 89gr of RL15. I received information this past week showing at that load you’re in excess of 42k pounds of pressure. Adding another grain or two may take you to pressures that are not necessarily dangerous but are hard on your double.

You may ask where I got this? Well I won’t say as I was not given permission to do so. But it comes from someone who has the equipment to make such measurements. Adding to this that RL15 is known to vary from lot to lot and you could really be on the wrong side of peak pressure.

IMO better to err on the side of caution, but that is your choice.

I just ran QL for RL 15.5 and was surprised to see at 87 grains of powder produced 2092 FPS at only 36700 PSI well below the 39,000 PMax

 

[DrBob]

The Kynock load is 87 Gr Rl15, Kynock wad. Woodleigh 500 gr. Not sure of primer. As for going up to 89 gr of Rl-15, it depends on the bullet construction. It also depends on whether dacron or foam wad. One author suggested no more that 1.5 grains of dacron. The ball of Dacron for Ross Seyfried was 4 grains.. a golf ball size. Mechanically the dacron is a denser wad material and using too much and the pressures will go up. Working up from below load wise is needed anyway as regulation is fairly individual. Still 105 to 108 grains of IMR 4831 is standard without wad. The action will get sticky with over pressure and extraction will be tight. I have found RL 15 to be slow in my double and not great for accuracy. So I use H4350 and RL17 for jacketed and Varget for cast lead.