.470 NE Reloads and Fillers?

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Load data at same velocity plugged into felt recoil calculator.

Hmm, not sure how one calculates "felt" recoil. I've read on many occasions that slower burning powders increase felt recoil, but in my experience I've never noticed it. I've tried different burning powders in my .300WM along with H4831 keeping bullet type/weight the same and roughly the same velocity. I did this specifically to see if I'd experience this. I honestly noticed very little difference.

Thus, 15% seems high to me. The bullet and it's movement down the barrel I believe are the greater contributor to recoil, so if that's held equal..... But we're talking felt recoil and that is certainly subjective.

 

[rookhawk]

Hmm, not sure how one calculates "felt" recoil. I've read on many occasions that slower burning powders increase felt recoil, but in my experience I've never noticed it. I've tried different burning powders in my .300WM along with H4831 keeping bullet type/weight the same and roughly the same velocity. I did this specifically to see if I'd experience this. I honestly noticed very little difference.

Thus, 15% seems high to me. The bullet and it's movement down the barrel I believe are the greater contributor to recoil, so if that's held equal..... But we're talking felt recoil and that is certainly subjective.

You were on a thread debating this topic that was titled something vs felt recoil.

felt recoil is a measurable phenomenon. You can go to many sites to use their calculator. I know one of the four variables is powder weight squared. Others are gun weight, velocity, bullet grain weight.

thus, all things being equal, the type of powder that gets it done with the least grains is going to have less recoil.

this is why federal 470 using Reloader powder and a not-for-sale federal 216 primer to ignite the loose powder in the not-full case produces less recoil than the other brands. It’s also why we use stuffing and 215m primers with RL powder in 470 if we can, to take less abuse! *provided gun will regulate with that load.

 

[rookhawk]

I covered this three pages ago.

IMR 4831 produces 85lbs of recoil in my gun, rl-15 only 75lbs.

technically, 13% difference, not 15%.

Friends, I'm always interested in "felt recoil" calculations.

The formulas on the web consider the following variables:

Bullet Weight
Gun Weight
Muzzle Velocity
Powder Charge

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I covered this three pages ago.

IMR 4831 produces 85lbs of recoil in my gun, rl-15 only 75lbs.

technically, 13% difference, not 15%.

Easy there, that was August, sorry I missed it. While I can certainly understand measuring recoil energy and/or momentum, I do not use the terms "recoil" and "felt recoil" interchangeably.

Recoil momentum or energy can certainly be calculated. What any given shooter perceives as painful or shocking or whatever their reaction is to touching off a round is quite subjective. Certainly if the actual recoil energy/momentum is less, that in general is going to mean a more pleasant experience for the shooter. But I'm not sure how that's measured as any given shooters perception of "felt recoil" is going to vary.

In my opinion the best thing one can do to accustom themselves to the recoil of a rifle is to shoot it using good form. The next best thing is to shoot a caliber above that. I used to think my .300WM had a pretty strong kick, then I bought a .375HH. After shooting that for awhile, my .300WM is something I shoot without thinking about the recoil. Then I got a .458BM and now also a .470NE and the .375HH is also something I just don't think about.

Want to use filler and a faster powder to reduce recoil? Have at it if it works for you. For me, it seems like an additional step that I don't personally want to be bothered with. Furthermore as mentioned, my experience with faster vs slower burning powder didn't result in a noticeable difference in recoil. But again it's subjective, yours and others results can certainly be different.

 

[rookhawk]

I can't speak to feelings or impressions as that is each our own, only to the mathmatically formula for calculating felt recoil (which is defined as "Free recoil") which is separate from "recoil momentum" which is the speed of the recoil.

This link is the most popular page on Chuck Hawk's site. I use this chart at least twice a week for one reason or the other. It saves a ton of math.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I can't speak to feelings or impressions as that is each our own, only to the mathmatically formula for calculating felt recoil (which is defined as "Free recoil") which is separate from "recoil momentum" which is the speed of the recoil.

This link is the most popular page on Chuck Hawk's site. I use this chart at least twice a week for one reason or the other. It saves a ton of math.

https://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

I suppose I'm splitting hairs a bit over using the word "felt" when it comes to recoil. But I think we're saying the same thing in the end.

It occurred to me that my experience with my .300WM may be such that any reduction in recoil, especially after experience with considerably bigger bores, just goes by me without me perceiving the difference. So I'm willing to give this a go again in my .470 Searcy. @Spooksar has a recipe for RL15 and Dacron filler. I don't have any RL15, but I have plenty of it's close equivalent, Varget. I'd just need to get some Dacron which I think is readily available at fabric shops.

@Spooksar, can you provide a few more particulars in your loading process using Dacron? Is there a specific filler you bought? Do you just use as it comes out of the bag? Seems like it would be "hairy" and cutting it with a scissors to make it more like grains may be a good thing to do.

Also, I presume the Dacron burns. Is there any fouling issues associated with this?

 

[rookhawk]

Also, I presume the Dacron burns. Is there any fouling issues associated with this?

There is not. FYI, 100% of vintage double rifle loads involve wads, fiber, cork, felt, or dacron stuffing. The super-majority of loads recommend dacron. This is because there isn't a big enough powder available to fill a case that was designed for strand cordite. (a substance that hasn't existed for 80+ years)

The reason we use dacron stuffing in modern full nitro double rifle loads is for any of the following:

1.) We want to use the powder we have and it doesn't fill the case.
2.) We cannot obtain Federal 216 primers as civilians, thus we use 215m primers which have less power. So in order to reproduce a factory load, we have to use stuffing to keep the powder pressed against the weaker ignition system us civilians can purchase. (if you don't like this, buy factory Federal loads that don't use stuffing because they have super primers at their disposal)
3.) We want less recoil by using more efficient powders...thus gap in the case.

My 350 Griffin & H0we double rifle required stuffing.
My 500 Nitro for Black required stuffing.
My 470 Nitro Express with RL15 requires stuffing.

Woodleigh load data supports and encourages dacron stuffing.

Ken Owen fully supports use of stuffing.

Graeme Wright wrote an entire book of recipes that call for stuffing.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

There is not. FYI, 100% of vintage double rifle loads involve wads, fiber, cork, felt, or dacron stuffing. The super-majority of loads recommend dacron. This is because there isn't a big enough powder available to fill a case that was designed for strand cordite. (a substance that hasn't existed for 80+ years)

The reason we use dacron stuffing in modern full nitro double rifle loads is for any of the following:

1.) We want to use the powder we have and it doesn't fill the case.
2.) We cannot obtain Federal 216 primers as civilians, thus we use 215m primers which have less power. So in order to reproduce a factory load, we have to use stuffing to keep the powder pressed against the weaker ignition system us civilians can purchase. (if you don't like this, buy factory Federal loads that don't use stuffing because they have super primers at their disposal)
3.) We want less recoil by using more efficient powders...thus gap in the case.

My 350 Griffin & H0we double rifle required stuffing.
My 500 Nitro for Black required stuffing.
My 470 Nitro Express with RL15 requires stuffing.

Woodleigh load data supports and encourages dacron stuffing.

Ken Owen fully supports use of stuffing.

Graeme Wright wrote an entire book of recipes that call for stuffing.

I'm also finding that Kynoch makes wads for this purpose.

Others cut backer rod, which is likely cheaper than the pre-made Kynoch wads that look to be made of foam.

 

[Spooksar]

I suppose I'm splitting hairs a bit over using the word "felt" when it comes to recoil. But I think we're saying the same thing in the end.

It occurred to me that my experience with my .300WM may be such that any reduction in recoil, especially after experience with considerably bigger bores, just goes by me without me perceiving the difference. So I'm willing to give this a go again in my .470 Searcy. @Spooksar has a recipe for RL15 and Dacron filler. I don't have any RL15, but I have plenty of it's close equivalent, Varget. I'd just need to get some Dacron which I think is readily available at fabric shops.

@Spooksar, can you provide a few more particulars in your loading process using Dacron? Is there a specific filler you bought? Do you just use as it comes out of the bag? Seems like it would be "hairy" and cutting it with a scissors to make it more like grains may be a good thing to do.

Also, I presume the Dacron burns. Is there any fouling issues associated with this?

Phil I bought a bag of pillow stuffing pull it apart, weigh it and stuff it in. Doesn’t burn

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Phil I bought a bag of pillow stuffing pull it apart, weigh it and stuff it in. Doesn’t burn

Sounds complicated....

 

[Vetaikaran]

I got my first double a Demand / VC 470 NE from Holts for a bargain in May 2018.

The rifle fits me quite well. Not perfect but good. It has 24 inch barrels and weighs 10lbs 3 oz, which is perfect in my opinion.

I started with Norma brass and H 4350 with F215M primers, going up to 100 gr for around 2100 fps with Woodleigh softs and Hornady softs & solids. I get similar results with 100 gr of VV N150 and just a bit more accurate / regulated. The right barrel is a bit slower and lower for all loads. Recoil is stiff and I am not able to shoot more than 6 shots. My cheek gets sore with recoil. I use the 12mm foam backer rod - 16mm length.

I tried Re15 and went up to 89 gr and got just over 2050 fps. It was whole lot more comfortable to shoot but impact was a bit low and regulation was 2 to 3 inches at 50 meters off a standing bench. Same foam rod.

I am now going to try 90 & 91 gr of Re15 and hope that will me better regulation and another 1.5 inch higher impact. I also have some Hornady brass which I will work up new loads with.

I have also used powder coated cast bullets 340 gr and 400 gr with Varget 72 gr and backer rod. So fat that gives me below 2000 fps and poor regulation. More work to do.

 

[mikecatt13]

Has anyone tried seeing if a smaller ammo manufacture would be willing to order in 216 primers and prime cases for a fee? If federal can sell them in loaded ammo is there a reason a willing licensed ammo manufacture couldn't do this?

 

[fourfive8]

Kind of on your own as far as filler goes but generally adding a filler of low density and low mass to an otherwise pressure tested load will only slightly increase pressure. Just avoid "compactable" materials like cotton or kapok and such. And obviously nothing dense or hard like a hard fiber wad on top of the powder with an air space between that and the bullet base! Done that way the bullet may become a kind of "bore obstruction"- not good. Dacron fiber is "non-compactable" so it's preferred. "Compactable" simple means it can take a "memory" or "set". Dacron if slightly compressed when loaded will maintain that slight compression on the powder... which is desired. Plus, adding a very few grains of mass to the payload has little to no affect on the ballistics. Just use enough quantity under light compression that the powder cannot migrate through the filler and defeat the purpose of the filler. I've tested many loads with Dacron filler and it doesn't burn nor melt in the barrel. It comes out in a mist of tiny pieces. An easy way to test for that is to shoot over fresh snow and inspect the area in front of the muzzle for a few feet in front of the bench. And when testing loads with filler use a chronograph and check velocities and velocity SDs. The SDs will tell if there is a positive effect to using a filler or not. After all that is the basic reason for doing it in the first place

When loading Dacron I usually cut strips, about the diameter of the cartridge body to be loaded, from a sheet of 1/4 - 1/2 inch thick material. Then cut that strip in lengths long enough to fill the case from the powder to a smidge longer than the mouth. That way when the bullet is seated it will compress the filler by slightly more than the seating depth. I've found long nose tweezers to be ideal for inserting the Dacron into the case and getting it all in, in a reasonably uniform fashion.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I got my first double a Demand / VC 470 NE from Holts for a bargain in May 2018.

The rifle fits me quite well. Not perfect but good. It has 24 inch barrels and weighs 10lbs 3 oz, which is perfect in my opinion.

I started with Norma brass and H 4350 with F215M primers, going up to 100 gr for around 2100 fps with Woodleigh softs and Hornady softs & solids. I get similar results with 100 gr of VV N150 and just a bit more accurate / regulated. The right barrel is a bit slower and lower for all loads. Recoil is stiff and I am not able to shoot more than 6 shots. My cheek gets sore with recoil. I use the 12mm foam backer rod - 16mm length.

I tried Re15 and went up to 89 gr and got just over 2050 fps. It was whole lot more comfortable to shoot but impact was a bit low and regulation was 2 to 3 inches at 50 meters off a standing bench. Same foam rod.

I am now going to try 90 & 91 gr of Re15 and hope that will me better regulation and another 1.5 inch higher impact. I also have some Hornady brass which I will work up new loads with.

I have also used powder coated cast bullets 340 gr and 400 gr with Varget 72 gr and backer rod. So fat that gives me below 2000 fps and poor regulation. More work to do.

I am by no means a DR expert, but I am going to advise you to NOT shoot more than 89gr of RL15. I received information this past week showing at that load you’re in excess of 42k pounds of pressure. Adding another grain or two may take you to pressures that are not necessarily dangerous but are hard on your double.

You may ask where I got this? Well I won’t say as I was not given permission to do so. But it comes from someone who has the equipment to make such measurements. Adding to this that RL15 is known to vary from lot to lot and you could really be on the wrong side of peak pressure.

IMO better to err on the side of caution, but that is your choice.

 

[mikecatt13]

What die sets are you all using and why? I'm a novice reloader. What, for example sets the $180 RCBS die set apart from the $89 hornady or $93 redding?

 

[fourfive8]

I use all manner of brands including mixed sets for some cartridges. For example: I use a Redding 2 die set for the 450 Watts along with a collet type lower body sizer die because it is a belted design. Also a Lyman 45 cal (long) rifle M die for neck expanding for cast bullet and some J bullet loading if needed. And if crimping for serious loads- a Lee FCD. And for most all cartridges, I use an RCBS universal de-capping die as the first step in the process. I have removed the decapping pin and neck sizing button from many of the sizer dies. So in that example, I use either 5 or 6 dies from up to 5 different makers.

If you are asking about 470 die set pricing? Looking at the listing on Midway, I see no great difference, as all three are basic two die sets. However I did notice that RCBS lists the 470 as a special order item so alas... more money. If I were to have to order a 470 die set right now I would select the Redding. IMO, RCBS and Redding are comparable and somewhat better than Hornady in functionality and design especially for a straight-walled cartridge.

 

[Spooksar]

What die sets are you all using and why? I'm a novice reloader. What, for example sets the $180 RCBS die set apart from the $89 hornady or $93 redding?

CH dies are very good

 

[fourfive8]

Here's the set for the 450 W. I think I can load the best, most reliable ammo possible for my rifle by doing it this way with these dies. The last on the right is a size/length/headspace gauge specific to my rifle chamber because it was cut with the same reamer as was used for the rifle's chamber.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

Apples / Oranges

So I loaded up four rounds with 109gr of H4831 and 500gr Woody softs. I did this for two reasons. The first to see if they'd regulate similar to the North Fork bonded cores I shot last in this rifle. And to try and keep this comparison of faster/less amount of powder compared to slower/more.

First, results of the H4831 I was happy to say regulated very well and consistent with the North Forks. I also shot these over my chrono and once again velocities were in the 2175fps range as I was hoping.

I also built up four rounds, two each with 86 and 87 grains of RL15. I forgot I still had a bunch of this around, so no need to use Varget. The 86gr loads were good for just under 200ofps, the 87gr took me to 2025fps. I used backer rod as the filler for these. Not surprisingly at this lower velocity, the regulation was very poor.

Was recoil less? For sure, but how much due to the lower velocity and how much due to the lesser powder charge? Hard to say, thus the apples/oranges comparison. According to the calculator I looked at, the reduction would be roughly half due to lower velocity and the other half due to the powder charge.

I will next load 88 and 89gr of RL15 and shoot over the chrony again. Based on the information I've received, I will not go past 89gr. I also doubt that I will reach what seems to be my double's sweet spot of 2175fps with 89gr or RL15. But we'll see.

The recoil reduction was enough to be noticeable for sure. And while the regulation was poor, it was good enough that I can see loading these up as practice rounds and sparing the shoulder a bit. POI was interestingly roughly the same, so even with a poor spread, I think as practice rounds, I would know if I pull one badly.

Fun exercise in hand loading and shooting whatever the case.

 

[Opposite Pole]

Here's the set for the 450 W. I think I can load the best, most reliable ammo possible for my rifle by doing it this way with these dies. The last on the right is a size/length/headspace gauge specific to my rifle chamber because it was cut with the same reamer as was used for the rifle's chamber.

View attachment 321244

Could you please explain what these are say left to right. If I’m not mistaken I see decap, sizer with expander removed, collet die, sizer with expander installed followed by not sure what followed by crimp die and your chamber gauge.