.470 NE Reloads and Fillers?

[DrBob]

This is good quantifiable data. It helped me ascertain that foam backer rod, does not create big pressure gains like Dacron, Grits, Israeli Couscous, Tapioca Pearls, Semolina, Japanese Sushi rice, Cornmeal, Sawdust (just joking!), and is a good filler in cases.
Many that are 100x more experienced than me use this. Foam backer rods, cut to the correct size just works.

While not a .470 NE, My experience is with the 450/400 Nitro 3", but the outcomes are similar. The cartridges have a similar conformation of case, neck down, and bullet weight; as a relatable factor. Sabatti (not a butchered one), regulated with HORNADY 400 SP, about 10 years ago.

Over that 10-year span, Hornady has loaded different powders, but I don't know which.
With a slow burning charge of VN-165 at 87 grains, no wads or filler, I was getting close to regulation, but the recoil sucked.

Then I got some Reloder 15, foam backer wads, at 65 grains (Graeme Wrights load is max 66 grains in his TEST rifles) and the rifle is on the money. Given that this is a .410 bore, I buy the 1/2-inch backer foam rods, cut to .90-inch length. Twist them down a bit, seat with a #2 Pencil eraser, seat the bullet and all good. This holds the powder column sufficiently, no air space, and works.

Cleaning After Shooting Foam Back Wads:

Have not noticed a bit of an issue with residue. At first, I was a bit skeptical, and inspected rifle bores carefully. Down in South Louisiana, I am used to dealing with Shotgun plastic wad residue from high brass/charge shells.

No issue at all.

The case capacity, versus case fill of powder is the area to focus. If the case is less than 85% full (some may say 90% and I have no argument with that), then use a foam backing wad. It is too easy, and you have reliable ignition and consistent ballistics.

Referencing the pressure chart above from Michael 458, there is no downside to foam fillers.

I have a 450/400 also. I use the same backer rod diameter and the same method as you. The Kynock wad disintegrates. With the wind at my nose, each shot has a cloud of wad granules in my face, Backer rod is treated with a flame retardant. The wads do come out fairly intact.

Large military ammunition has forward ignition. A long tube with powder seals the primer hole such that the flame travel goes through the tube to the forward area of the powder column and then burns back toward the base. Very efficient. I have been tempted to play with that...first in a 45-70 and then the 470...maybe a great excuse for a 500 NE with its straight case!

Thanks for sharing...

 

[mikecatt13]

When you guys find a nicely regulated soft load, do you bump it down a couple grains and work up with solids or start with the same charge?

 

[DrBob]

When you guys find a nicely regulated soft load, do you bump it down a couple grains and work up with solids or start with the same charge?

Depends on the solids. Best to start low and work up..mostly for safety. Hornady softs and solids have the same shank so should be similar. Woodleigh solids are different from the softs and harder. Barnes are harder in solids than TSX. You could drop down ... oh... say 10 grains and work back up at 2 grain intervals. To save money, I just loaded single rounds and shot from one barrel to see velocity and extraction as it approached the softs regulation velocity. Gives one an idea of grains to velocity. Also point of impact... if... you put a loaded round in the other barrel to have rifle as per regular shooting.

 

[rookhawk]

When you guys find a nicely regulated soft load, do you bump it down a couple grains and work up with solids or start with the same charge?

Half to one grain less for a solid

 

[Buck51]

Don’t know yet. Will let you know when I shoot the 15.5. It will be interesting to see if there is a noticeable difference or not

Have you had a chance to shoot it? Did you end up using a filler? If so which one?
I just bought a 470 and plan to try 15.5 with 500 grain Aframes. The gun is regulated with 500 grain woodleighs at about 2050 fps. Thanks

 

[Rare Breed]

Bingo. My QL confirms your FPS at 86 grains of RL 15.5 generating 2052 FPS. I absolutely use my Kynoch foam filler I buy from Trader Keith. At 79% fill it clearly needs the filler. Just loaded 40 rounds for JJ. He may find after the first two shots the rifle regulated perfectly with my desired load. If so he does not charge me except checking over the gun. But if needed he re regulates for me.

 

[DrBob]

Have you had a chance to shoot it? Did you end up using a filler? If so which one?
I just bought a 470 and plan to try 15.5 with 500 grain Aframes. The gun is regulated with 500 grain woodleighs at about 2050 fps. Thanks

The A-frames are a "harder" bullet .. so expect lower velocities and higher pressures ... so start a little below the Woodleighs and work up.

 

[Rare Breed]

Friends, I'm always interested in "felt recoil" calculations.

The formulas on the web consider the following variables:

Bullet Weight
Gun Weight
Muzzle Velocity
Powder Charge

For my 470NE without the scope at 9lbs 12 ounces, it comes to 85lbs of recoil.
For my 470NE with the scope at 11lbs 2 ounces, it comes to 75lbs of recoil.

Help me understand this piece. Bullet weight 500gr. Gun Weight as above. Muzzle Velocity standard is 2150fps. The Powder Charge using IMR4831 is 106gr. For RL15 it is 89gr. Is that to suggest that a different powder will greatly adjust the recoil at the same velocity, weight of gun, and weight of bullet? Or are the calculators flawed?

If I plug 89gr of powder into the calculator, it lowers the recoil to 75lbs and a VERY pleasant 66lbs respectively. This doesn't make sense to me so I assume the calculators are flawed?

interesting people saying 2150 FPS is gold standard. JJPerodeau taught me to keep my 470 between 2050 and 2070 no higher. Hornady uses 2050 FPS when they regulate their DRs

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

A very long time ago when I was able to reload, Ross Seyfried gave me a lot of advice on reloading for doubles. For fill he recommended dacron fill which can be easily purchased. Five dollars worth will last a life time. If I remember right I used a half a gram.

Lon

 

[zephyr]

Dacron vs Foam.....
Bunches of years ago found a Michael McCourry pressure test on all of the various fillers out there. Foam created the least amount of Pressure Dacron one of the highest since I am shooting a 100 year old gun and wanting to give it the best chance ot last another 100 years I switched from Dacron to foam

 

[AimSmall]

interesting people saying 2150 FPS is gold standard. JJPerodeau taught me to keep my 470 between 2050 and 2070 no higher. Hornady uses 2050 FPS when they regulate their DRs

My 470 shoots factory 500gr DGX bonded @ 2,140 - 2,150, very accurately, as well

 

[358 Norma]

interesting people saying 2150 FPS is gold standard. JJPerodeau taught me to keep my 470 between 2050 and 2070 no higher. Hornady uses 2050 FPS when they regulate their DRs

That is exactly what JJ told me and my rifle regulates perfectly at 2050 ft per second!

 

[DrBob]

Dacron vs Foam.....
Bunches of years ago found a Michael McCourry pressure test on all of the various fillers out there. Foam created the least amount of Pressure Dacron one of the highest since I am shooting a 100 year old gun and wanting to give it the best chance ot last another 100 years I switched from Dacron to foam View attachment 582795

The open foam backer rod has the same effect as about 3 grains of H4350 powder while keeping the pressures lower. This is what I found working up loads. Kynock uses a proprietary wad that disintegrates into a fine powder. Shooting into a wind you can feel the "grit" blown back into your face. The type of foam wad can make a difference. I have some speaker foam.... larger open cell which is different from backer foam for velocity and grouping. Balck magic..

The recommendation for dacron was to only use 1.5 grains of the stuff. Seyfried used more with RL15. My Merkel likes 2050 fps for regulation and a preference for Varget over RL15. H4350 and IMR 4831 (old stand by) are good with IMR at 105-106 grains not needing a wad. Perceived recoil is greater. The mass of ejected gas from the burned powder is like shooting a larger bullet plus the rocket effect.

 

[rookhawk]

2150fps is the gospel, absolutely traditional velocity of these largebore loads from the ICI/Kynoch 1921 and 1926 published data.

CAUTION

1.) The proof barrels were 28" and were using stranded cordite. Modern barrels are usually 24" so the velocity goes down.

2.) They lied or measured wrong. The original published velocities were enthusiastic to say the least. Grab a vintage kynoch load and shoot it over a chronograph in a 28" barreled vintage gun. The velocity is around 2080fps or so.

So, in conclusion, out of a modern 24" double rifle, the regulating velocity is usually between 2025-2075 fps using powders such as RL15, 3031, 4350, and 4831.

Exceptions to this: Some ill-informed factory loadings were made by ballisticians that did not know points 1 and 2 above and made loads that achieve 2150fps in less than 24" of barrel, sometimes a lot more. Those loads are injurious to the vintage guns and won't hit the broadside of a barn unless your new gun was regulated at the factory for these loads. One example of a crazy hot load that doesn't regulate well at all is Nosler's 470NE load. Crazy hot.

 

[DrBob]

2150fps is the gospel, absolutely traditional velocity of these largebore loads from the ICI/Kynoch 1921 and 1926 published data.

CAUTION

1.) The proof barrels were 28" and were using stranded cordite. Modern barrels are usually 24" so the velocity goes down.

2.) They lied or measured wrong. The original published velocities were enthusiastic to say the least. Grab a vintage kynoch load and shoot it over a chronograph in a 28" barreled vintage gun. The velocity is around 2080fps or so.

So, in conclusion, out of a modern 24" double rifle, the regulating velocity is usually between 2025-2075 fps using powders such as RL15, 3031, 4350, and 4831.

Exceptions to this: Some ill-informed factory loadings were made by ballisticians that did not know points 1 and 2 above and made loads that achieve 2150fps in less than 24" of barrel, sometimes a lot more. Those loads are injurious to the vintage guns and won't hit the broadside of a barn unless your new gun was regulated at the factory for these loads. One example of a crazy hot load that doesn't regulate well at all is Nosler's 470NE load. Crazy hot.

My only criticism is listing 3031 as that powder was a standard but now should be eliminated from use. Medium powders rule. Even some of the other calibers of dangerous game rifles hovered into the 1950 fps range. No need to chase 2150 fps. The 458 Win Mag can do well with the 480 grain of the 450 NE.

 

[Wahoo]

Curious as to why 3031 should be eliminated from use? Safety or firearm damage issues?

 

[rookhawk]

My only criticism is listing 3031 as that powder was a standard but now should be eliminated from use. Medium powders rule. Even some of the other calibers of dangerous game rifles hovered into the 1950 fps range. No need to chase 2150 fps. The 458 Win Mag can do well with the 480 grain of the 450 NE.

I (parroting the finest vintage double rifle experts on the planet) disagree. Ross Seyfried and Ken Owen recommend as the very first and best powder to be used should be IMR3031. It also is the most predictable because it has a relational ratio to cordite. It also produces the least recoil at a given velocity because it uses fewer grains to achieve velocity.

 

[rookhawk]

I (parroting the finest vintage double rifle experts on the planet) disagree. Ross Seyfried and Ken Owen recommend as the very first and best powder to be used should be IMR3031. It also is the most predictable because it has a relational ratio to cordite. It also produces the least recoil at a given velocity because it uses fewer grains to achieve velocity.

My Heym 470NE - 3031 load produced 58lbs of felt recoil. IMR4831 load at equivalent velocity produced 89lbs. I vaguely remember it being a difference between 77grs versus 106grs of powder if my foggy memory is correct.

 

[Pondoro]

I have this WW1 vintage double in .475 3 1/4, barrels 23".. I get 2158fps average with (modern) Kynoch ammo.. They regulate well but seems to be a little on the hot side..

I load my .470 Krieghoff with 90 grains of Vithavuori N-150, 500 grain Woodl. soft and Federal 215 primer... ca. 2070fps..prima regulation.

 

[Rare Breed]

My Heym 470NE - 3031 load produced 58lbs of felt recoil. IMR4831 load at equivalent velocity produced 89lbs. I vaguely remember it being a difference between 77grs versus 106grs of powder if my foggy memory is correct.

+1 only Ken Owen gave me a load of 80 grains of 3031 for my 500 NE…pussy cat to shoot