460 S&W hunting bullet

[.45 colt hunter]

@Mentone Mike .
Danish gun laws are strict and it is illegal to use revolvers and pistol for hunting. A rifle is defined as being at least 60 cm (24") in total length, with a minimum barrel length of 30 cm (12"). If you plan to put a stock on a revolver or pistol with a barrel that is 30 cm = 12 inches then the stock must be non detachable. So a revolver carbine can be approved as long as it is permanently changed with some kind of stock that cannot be removed in the field.
Although Greenland is in some way a part of Denmark, they have their own gun an hunting laws. You may most likely get permission to use a revolver on the Musk ox. If your Contender is 24" overall then at least according to Danish law it will be legal. Danish laws for hunting class 1 game i.e. Red deer , Fallow deer or anything bigger than roe deer must produce at least 2000 Joule (1475 ft/lb) at 100 m , with a minimum bullet diameter of 6 mm (.243 ). Its then up to the "operator" to figure out if his reloaded ammunition will produce the needed power. Factory ammo normally has the power level in joule, printed on the box. In Denmark only ammunition with a max content of 2 % lead is allowed, don`t know about Greenland, but i am quite sure lead is allowed. There are several outfitters in Greenland that do Musk Ox hunts, they will know if your favourite gun is legal.
The lead bullet on the left in your pictures looks identical to the few bullet i have retrieved from African game, as in Eland, Gemsbuck and Giraffe as the largest. They lost a little weight and the sharp edges on the meplat was rounded off some with very little expansion. I actually saw that as an advantage as some of the other guys in this thread has mentioned. If a relatively heavy bullet keeps its meplat and most of its weight, what more could you ask for. I trust that you have a lot of experience and your findings are correct and i will not for a moment argue with you whether the AF is better than a correct hardened cast 350 gr. LFN LBT, because there are thousand of factors that determine how an animal behaves after a "perfect" shot, with the "perfect" bullet. I have been a commercial reloader for many years and i load my ammunition with what the customers want. If asked when lead was allowed, i would recommend the Swift AF. Now that lead is out and we cannot get Swift bullets at all, i tend to recommend Barnes TSX , TTSX or the new Sako Blade. I get a lot of feedback from my customers and the funny thing is that they all have very different opinions on how a specific bullets work. Some say that bullets brand X is useless and the animal ran 200 Yards with at perfect shot and some say that the same bullet killed like lightning but destroyed so much meat that they will never use it again. All with the same bullet and in the same caliber, loaded to the same velocity. What i am trying to say is, that it takes many thousands of real hunting situations before statistics can clearly define which bullet at what speed is the very best.
I would love to try the Swift AF, but i just cant get it. My lead bullet have never disappointed me, but i have on the other hand never shot a buffalo, so i cant say how they will behave on such a beast. In the 460 XVR i will not go for max velocity, maybe a bit over.454 Casull , but rather go a bit heavy.

@michael458
I already have some Peregrine 250 grain expanding copper bullets waiting for me in RSA, together with some Barnes 325 gr. Buster and Barnes 250 gr. XPB that a friendly american guy handed over to my PH in RSA. I will also take some of my home cast bullets along for testing. The Dios Y El Rey Hunting Outfitters & Equipment, seems to be closed for now, but i will try them later. Thanks for the tip. I am a bit pessimistic about getting any US made components in RSA for quite some time, as everyone (gunshops) i have talked to say they just cant get what they want, probably due to all the trouble around the world. No primers no powder no cases to be found right now. I was lucky to secure what i needed about 6 months ago. It took a lot of searching on the internet for available component, most of it was delivered to my PHs local gunshop by courier, from all over the country. Next April i will hopefully put it all together on the reloading equipment, that i set up on the hunting Lodge a year ago.
I will give Dawid a call.

I am now in contact with a Danish bullet manufacturer, who can make me a solid copper bullet with at large meplat and/or a hollow point that will expand some. I cannot test it at 460 velocity as this revolver is in RSA and will not be allowed in Denmark, but only in the Freedom Arms .454
They will most likely be quite expensive as i am probably the only individual here in Denmark that are interested in a revolver hunting bullet for big game.
Any ideas how this bullet should be designed ? I will probably do something similar in shape to a 380 gr. LBT LFN. In copper that will be around 320 gr. i guess.
Please show pictures of your favourite copper revolver bullet in .452. Hollow point or with a meplat.

 

[Mentone Mike]

Thanks for all the information. My Encore is in 454 Casuall, 16.25" barrel. So should be OK by what you
said. When I emailed the Danish police about hunting in Greenland they said handguns were not allowed. Too bad as that would be preferred.
That's cool you are a commercial reloader. It is interesting the different experiences folks have with different bullets. I like to think I have considerable experience when it comes to hunting big game and bullet selections. When I look back at all the game I have killed using cast bullets, I now understand why I switched to hollow point jacketed. Many from antelope up to the bison showed no reaction. Unless you hit bone, it takes a long time for them to bleed out. Made me wonder each time if I missed. I compare it to squirrel hunting here. A solid 22 LR just punches through giving the squirrel time to run in a hole, hollow points drop them right there.
I am sure you are familiar with Veral Smith of LBT and his book. He started all the wide meplat craze and deep penetration school. John Linebaugh always called the revolver a long range paper punch.
And so penetration was the key. But like I told him, over penetration is a concern hunting in farmland.
Jacketed bullet development has come a long way since I started handgun hunting.
I have shot many game animals with cast bullets and now only with jacketed bullets.
I prefer Swift AF but really have to settle for Hornady's XTP bullets as they are easily available here.
I have no practical experience hunting with all copper bullets. Sorry you guys have to deal with no lead ammunition.
I have yet to see any proof that hunters are responsible for lead poisoning in the general wildlife population.
I attached a couple pics. The ammo I took to Argentina was Grizzly Cartridge. Those punch bullets have a lead core, so would not be legal in Denmark I guess. The other pic is of my 460 Smith guns. The BFR I have used for deer and also a black powder revolver. Another topic for sure.
The MOA was the pistol I took to Argentina for the water buffalo. Since been upgraded with optics and a muzzle brake.

 

[.45 colt hunter]

Mentone Mike​

I am not 100 % sure, but i do not believe that the Danish police are the right authority to ask if handguns are allowed in Greenland. There is also a big difference between taking a handgun for self protection and a hunting handgun. I can mention a danish adventurous women who travelled across the ice with a dog sled, she was given permission to carry a 44 mag !
I am a licensed gun dealer and gunsmith and i am in weekly contact with the danish police and they are just a pain in the a..
I can tell you that the level of the staff that you probably were in contact with, do not know a hoot about the finer details of danish gun laws, not to mention the rules in Greenland. I am not saying that revolvers are Ok in Greenland, but it is worth investigating it. The right persons to contact are a licensed PH or outfitter living in Greenland. They should also be able to help you with taking your firearms into Greenland, be it a revolver or rifle. I have a friend that have relatives in Grenland and has hunted there often, i will ask him if he can find out. One of the most frequently used calibers for everything is the .22 rimfire magnum, and when they want a true bigbore then the 222 rem. That would never be allowed in Denmark. They do have rules of their own up there.

I have never met Veral, but i have had numerous conversations with him before he was thrown in jail and when it was time to order, i wrote him a letter specifying what i wanted and sent it to him by mail, with a real stamp on. Those were the days ! But very very slow. I got in contact with him after he made a mold for Ross Seyfried, when he wanted to take down a Cape buffalo with his John Linebaugh custom made .45 revolver. Verals contact information was in the article Ross made for Guns & Ammo, as i recall it.
Later on when out from jail, i only corresponded with him by email. As the years went by, he started to do mistakes and some of his molds were totally out of spec. He promised to correct it but never did, even though i reminded him, so eventually i gave up on him. I have the deepest respect for his work and his book. The molds that he did right, are fantastic and i use them a lot. I just think he got too old and too difficult to communicate with. I have around 20 of his molds in 9mm , 358 .452 and 1 in 458 Win Mag.
I then had my moulds done by Mountain Moulds and lately by Accurate moulds as Mountain M. shut down. I am very pleased with Accurate moulds although they do not invent/design moulds. As a Cast bullet man, i believe you know them and their extensive catalog. I have quite a few molds, but the best molds to cast with are 2 identical 6 cavity Hensley & Gibbs #316BB in .358 158 gr. truncated cone design. Very accurate in my S&W 686 Distinguished hunter.
I truly respect your views on the cast bullet with a large meplat, which is one of Verals many ideas and i cannot say that i don`t accept the concept of a quality expanding jacketed bullet, i do, but the bullets i could get my hand on were too soft and would not stand up to .454 and .460 velocities.
You are probably absolutely right when you claim that the jacketed handgun bullets got much better and i will certainly give them a try when i get to Africa, where i have a selection of them waiting for me.
You mention that it is interesting to read that people have completely different opinions on the same bullet in the same caliber and velocity. The Hornady XTP that you want to use is a good example of just that. I know that there are 2 versions of this bullet, but i have read a lot of negative results with not just the soft version, but also the tough version has been said to completely disintegrate when hitting bone and tough hide. I know absolutely nothing about that particular bullet, but i just found it funny that there are so many different opinions about the same bullet.
The Punch bullets is from what i have read a solid brass bullet withsome of its base filled with lead. Now without testing it, i will assume that this bullet will behave more or less like a hard cast LBT LFN except that the cast bullet will, as you also have seen yourself, shed a bit of the sharp corners on the meplat. Brass is not my favourite bullet material as i have tested many of them in rifle calibers and did not like what i saw. They are too hard and brittle when they are constructed with a hollowpoint or "weak" points in the nose portion. They will not expand at all, but only fragment. In my opinion copper is the way to go, maybe not with the same design as the punch, but rather with a shallow hollowpoint that will allow the bullet to expand moderately, maybe shedding a bit af the expanded nose like a Nosler partition. As i mentioned in my last post, i am now in contact with a danish bullet manufacturer, that was a "brass man" but now has started to look at copper. I will try to design a copper bullet as described and your input will be highly appreciated. Weight, nose profile, some kind of hollowpoint . Or ?? For use in the .454 casull and the .460 S&W.

 

[Mentone Mike]

You and I are cut from the same cloth. I remember Ross's article. Met him once at the SHOT show. Interesting guy.
Likewise I visited with Veral many times prior to his arrest. Owned many of his molds. Sold most as I did not use certain ones. But he did make the best in the business. His sprue plate was genius.
I also tried to order a mold for a cap and ball revolver he specifically designed but was very difficult
to get it done. I spoke mostly with his wife, so not sure how he was doing.
Ordered a Keith style mold from Accurate also. Nicely done molds.
I have tried many types of bullet styles and configurations. Made my own hollowpointing tools so I can test deep hollowpoints, shallow hollowpoints , different styles in all my cast bullets. Not sure I would say anyone was better than the other. All tested similar in wet phones books { yea when you could get them) often thought just a simple dish in front would best.
I had some fun resizing 400 gr jacketed SP 45/70 bullets for the 460. Great accuracy and way to much bullet for deer. I had a stock pile of Remington bullets and they were easy to resize. Back then they were very inexpensive. Not so now.
Yea, the XTP's do work..most of the time. I lost a very nice buck that I am convinced the XTP Mag did not open and punched a nice little hole through both shoulders. Blood was coming out high on both sides but never seemed to bother him. Jumped him the next day on the neighbors but he ran off like no tomorrow. The Mag version unfired looks almost like a round nose.
The bullet I really like was the Speer 300 gr Deep Curl 454. I attached some pics. I used them on all the other game in Argentina. I converted a Ruger 357 Max to fire trimmed 460 brass. Basically giving me a low level 454. Velocities were generally in that 1450 range. The pic I show are test bullets. Left to right.
Shot into a 1/4" steel plate at 50 yards. This was stuck in the plate. Unused bullet, expansion at 100 yds and then at 50. Unfortunate these are still unavailable.
I also attached a couple of pages of test bullets just for your entertainment.
Since you are called the 45 colt hunter thought you would enjoy seeing my 45 Colt cartridge collection . The second row is all my experimental loads.
I used to do a lot of cowboy action, so the 45 was my go to cartridge for everything. Including hunting javelinas and hogs with black powder loaded revolver rounds in my cowboy sixshooters.

Question, have you hunted cape buffalo?

 

[.45 colt hunter]

First, no i have not shot a buffalo, its on my bucket list. I have had some good offers on cows, but i only want a bull around 38" and with my .460 S&W , that is the reason for my search for the best possible bullet. Maybe i will never be able to afford it, but its nice to have a dream.
The largest animal taken with my :454 FA revolver and my LBT LFN 350 gr. is a an old giraffe bull. Its much bigger and heavier than the buffalo, but not so grumpy. The bullet worked fine but did shed some weight. see picture.
You have been very scientific and have analysed your bullet very well. I have not had the chance to test good quality jacketed bullets as the .45 caliber revolvers in this country is only used primarily for cowboy action and casual plinking. As far as i know, i am the only Danish individual that has used his own .45 revolver for hunting in Africa. I am on my own when it comes to loads and bullets. I always use H110 or VV N110 for max loads. Reason: the only powders available that are suitable.
From your pictures i would choose the Swift A-Frame, if i could get it. I understand your choice. Speer deep Curl, cant get them. I could get some 45-70 bullets and size them down, but i am afraid they will jump crimp and lock up the cylinder.
My opinion on hollowpoint cast bullets is: If you want them to expand, a soft alloy must be used and velocity must be very moderate or they will shed the nose portion. If you make a hollowpoint with a hard alloy and high velocity, you will also have them shed the nose. I am experimenting with lead alloys and is searching for a cast bullet of moderate hardness without the hollowpoint, that will expand without shedding too much at up to 1700 fps.. Maybe an impossible task, but i cannot forget the fact that millions of Bisons were killed with soft lead bullet in .45 and .50 caliber rifles. The velocity of those bullets from Sharps and Rolling Block are comparable to the velocity we can get with a 400 gr. bullet in the .460 S&W.
The alloy i am at right now is 3% antimony 3% tin 94 % Wheel W. which make it possible to water quench them for a hardness of around 25 BNH without being brittle . In the picture of some of my cast bullets, the first bullet from the left is of that alloy. It was hit by a sledgehammer as hard as i could. It did not break up or shed any weight, but did expand as i would like it to. Will have to test that on large game. As you may notice, i just cannot give up on my cast bullets.
I have started to do coated bullets with a polymer made in South Africa by Bullet Corp. I can now use my cast bullets with full power in 9 mm, 38 super and 357 Mag. without a trace of lead in the barrels. The .454 have never had a leading problems no matter the velocity, but have also started to coat them. Phone books, what are they ? Got rid of them decades ago.
On my first (revolver) trip to RSA i used a Ruger Super Blackhawk in .45 Colt to take a Gemsbuck (Oryx) at 117 yd. from shooting sticks, It was actually a too long shot for my talents, but i was lucky this time. I am now limiting my shots to max 80 yd. I finally decided that i was stressing the Ruger BH. too much with my stiff loads and then got the Freedom arms Casull, but i am loading it with .45 colt cases, primed with large rifle primers. My Cast bullets have the crimp groove positioned so the bullet is far out of the case, making it possible to load it with just as much powder and power as the .454 Casull.
The reason: .454 casull ammo is not allowed in this country ! But no problem. I love the .45 Colt.

The .45 Colt was never used much here, so making a collection like yours, is not possible, i envy you.
I also started drooling when i saw the picture with the original Colt Bisley on the right, i am not sure if the nickel plated revolver on the left is another original Colt Bisley or a well made copy. I have an original colt from around 1901 in very good condition, i only use it with black powder. It shoots very accurate with the Lyman bullet that copies the original BP bullet without the crimp groove.
I am also doing a bit of CAS, BP only, but i dont want to abuse my Colt , so i have a pair of Uberti 5,5" " El Patron Competition" which are slicked up and short stroked from the factory. I should probably have bought a pair of Ruger new Vaqueros although they are way more expensive. The problem is : i cannot buy any short stroke kits for them here or any other spareparts for that matter due to one of your government acts, that wont allow any export of firearms related products outside the US. There is still a small stock left of the Ruger revolver available here.
As mentioned in my previous post, i am looking for inputs for the all copper bullet, that i am planning to produce. My thoughts is a bullet around 350 - 390 gr. with a 70 % meplat and a hollowpoint that will allow it to expand at a velocty in the 1500 -1700 fps range. A copper bullet will be rather long compared to a cast lead bullet otherwise i would go higher in weight.
What are your thoughts ?


My Freedom Arms revolvers , a 7.5 " and a 6". Leupold x 2 scope, also have a Aimpoint H2 red dot for them. My eyes are no good for hunting with open sights any more. (70 years of age)

My old Colt .45. 5,5". Ca 1901 , What do you think the value is of a piece like this ?

My CAS pair of Uberti "El Patron Comp"

From L to R. 1. Hit with a sledge hammer full power. 2 Extracted from solid hard Elm wood, penetration 16"
3. A raking shot on a Eland bull, it required a follow up shot. 4. Hit heavy bone on a Gemsbok 5. Hit bone in the Giraffe
The 2 last shed some of the nose , but also did expand some. I think not any worse than some jacketed bullets. They all killed well , all lost the gas check . forgot to weigh them. Velocity around 1500 fps.
I think i can do better with an improved alloy !

400 gr. WLN, 370 gr LFN , 350 gr. LFN. 325 gr. LFN. With crimp groove for .45 colt cases .
The 350 gr. being my favorite.
They would be too long for .454 cases in the Freedom arms cylinder. Should work fine in the .460 case and the S&W XVR.

 

[Mentone Mike]

I have never been to Africa, but Mike Rintoul of Grizzly Cartridge shot his giraffe and he tells me they
are extremely tough animals. He used a Hamilton Bowen 50 Wyoming I believe. He has a bullet design I think was a whoppin' 700 or 725 gr. cast bullet. He was suppose to go rhino hunting this fall, but I have not heard back from him in awhile.
You are correct about the soft lead bullets and the demise of the buffalo herds. Interesting fact though.
The hunters were not so concerned about quick deaths or extreme penetration. They would recover the
bullets and recast them in camp.
Once we were allowed to hunt with muzzleloading handguns and revolvers, I did my fair share of shooting deer with several handguns. First buck was with a third model Dragoon. Woiuld not group with conicals so I settled with round balls and 55 gr of 3fg. Interesting as the ball split in half after hitting a bone, but it downed the buck. I have tried Remington 1858's with only a lost deer. Dropped that idea. Just not enough power. Then I upped the game to a custom 50 cal. box lock shooting the 370 gr Maxiball and 90 gr 3 fg. Game changer. No chance of recovering any of those bullets. Now I am shooting one of those old T/C scout pistol loaded with 90 gr of TripleSeven and the 300gr. Aerolite powerbelts.
I bring all this up because Rintoul was always a proponent of a 50 caliber handgun for hunting. I can't say he is wrong and wished I would have switched over long ago. I am just to invested all things 45.
I did own a 475 Linebaugh John had built for me. But components are limited for that caliber so I sold it to a bear biologist in Canada of all places. Helped pay for my Argentine hunt.

Gun laws over there make no sense to me. I visited an Irish gun shop on a trip there years ago. The owner was trying to get a Winchester 30/30 for his own use, but could not get approval because it was not on the legal list. Yet a common caliber is the 308. And you can buy a suppressor over the counter which we cannot.
In some ways we are just as backwards state side. Iowa's handgun hunting laws are restricted to straight wall cartridges over 35 caliber. Yet they make an exception for the 35 Whelen and 45/70.
Go figure.
Oh, the outfitter in Greenland said no handguns allowed. After checking the total cost I may have to pass on that hunt. Big game hunting here has gotten pretty expensive, but I can get 3-4 good ones in
for the cost of a Musk Ox hunt.
My bisley's are sadly all Uberti's. I do custom work on my own, so the one you think is original is a reifnished clone to appear that way. The nickeled one was for my CAS events shooting black powder/
Much easier to clean. I also recreated a copy of an original target bisley. I do regret not buying an original when they were more affordable. The only original I have was given to me by my Great Granddad's best friend. You see my Granddad was a cattle/sheep trader and most of his friends resided in West Texas. The Colt 45 is a long fluted cylinder made in 1913. Supposedly carried by a Texas Ranger but I am having a hard time verifying that. Look at Guns International. Might give you a good idea of what your Colt might be worth.
As far as copper bullet designs, I actually drew up a design many years ago that I presented to Rintoul. He thought it too difficult to produce. Basically a full wadcutter with 4 short heavy pedals slightly bent inward. Not more than 3/16" long. Food for thought.
I was hoping to get a link for you to M.L. Mepherson's article on Paco Kelly's Levergun.com.
But it was posted back in 2010 and must not be available. Great info on the 454.

 

[Brian]

I use peregrine Bushmaster bullets from Pretoria, in my .577 NE. They are awesome, premium bullets.
I also use NorthFork from Sweden cape buffalo they are excellent too. I have never checked if either of them make pistol bullets.

I think that a proper cast, flat nosed bullets would be perfect for you. (14-18 BHN would be plenty hard enough I am guessing. At pistol velocities, if they are cast real hard, like 20+ BHN, they may perform just like solids which could also be a good thing, with your 460. They has to be more real seasoned pistol hunters here on AH that can chime in. Brian