458 Win Mag vs 458 Lott....The facts

[Riflecrank]

Yes indeed, one must know his rifle.

This paper-patch-BPCR method of Randolph S. Wright may be adapted for comparing throats (excellent book):

My doodling on a tool:

 

[ldmay375]

I will try to reply to everything. If I miss something let me know.

All of these rifles were bought used. Though, all appeared as dang near new, literally.
So, I am assuming the throats were as factory reamed.
The MRC magazine is a nominal 3.6", perhaps a tiny longer. I actually load it to 3.5960" to allow me, real or imagined comfort level on COL and ogive variations.

The Winchester Model 70 Super Express throat surprised the heck out of me. I measured, re-measured and Re-measured ...
But, they came out consistent. This one may be a potential candidate for one of the spare 3.6" replacement magazines that I have around here. But, I will probably be putting it in a fiberglass stock, before the additional recoil. I would say throat erosion is not a factor on this one. It literally looked like new. I think I got 2 or 3 boxes of the Hornady super-whatever 500 grain with it, missing with 2 or 3 fired brass in one box.

The CZ had a trip to AHR prior to my purchase. But it also looked new. Now that one, I never bothered to measure. I shot some factory loads through it. I sort of did, but realized the 450's were dang near out of the brass, and the test COL cartridge from the MRC at 3.8205" worked through the magazine without issue. And called it good enough since all my Lott loads were for the MRC. Heck, I just "assumed" it was a SAAMI Winchester throat. Which would have been no issue with the MRC loaded lengths since I was not looking to maximize it.

Edit: I had a picture of the AHR work order on the CZ. No chamber work was listed.

 

[saswart]

Just for interest, from left to right. 458 Express 3” (shooter shoots a 500 gr Peregrine solid bullet at 2250fps from a Brno ZKK 602), 458 Lott (500gr Impala solid at 2272 fps - CZ550), 458 Win Mag (500gr Claw soft, 2170fps - Brno zkk 602). Note seating depths

 

[ldmay375]

Just for interest, from left to right. 458 Express 3” (shooter shoots a 500 gr Peregrine solid bullet at 2250fps from a Brno ZKK 602), 458 Lott (500gr Impala solid at 2272 fps - CZ550), 458 Win Mag (500gr Claw soft, 2170fps - Brno zkk 602). Note seating depths

Always of interest.
What are the Cartridge Overall Lengths of those ?

 

[KTMpilot]

Just for interest, from left to right. 458 Express 3” (shooter shoots a 500 gr Peregrine solid bullet at 2250fps from a Brno ZKK 602), 458 Lott (500gr Impala solid at 2272 fps - CZ550), 458 Win Mag (500gr Claw soft, 2170fps - Brno zkk 602). Note seating depths

View attachment 649331

@saswart If I may ask, what propellant are you using for the 458 Lott 500 gr Impala solid load please?

 

[IvW]

LOL!! I realize that people believe what they want to believe, but still........

No one who knows a modicum about bolt action rifles will shoehorn a cartridge into too short of a magazine. A huge focus of the custom rifle building industry is to maximize the potential of each cartridge. This has been going on for years.

Many OEMs, probably in an effort to minimize costs, married themselves to a 3.4" magazine length. At first, it made sense, but it quickly reached the point of absurdity. The biggest example I can think of is Winchester putting a spacer in their 3.6" magazine boxes for many cartridges that worked better in longer magazine boxes. These cartridges worked better in longer magazine boxes well before the current trend of using heavy for caliber bullets. I have been removing magazine spacers, and shortening bolt stops and ejectors, on my M-70s for 20+ years. Later I started milling receivers to use Kevin Wyatt's magazine boxes.

Some OEMs broke the 3.4" restriction and Settled on 3.7" (Remington), but they became stuck there. Some OEMs like Tikka have regressed, offering a 300 Win Mag in their 3.4" magazine box. Some OEMs have done better, like CZ with their 3.850 length, but most of the solutions are in the aftermarket and custom gun world.

My company has worked very hard to address this well known issue. We have a DBM that will allow a 3.95" OAL. This works well on several premium aftermarket long actions and even a modified Remmy. We have a medium length DBM that allows 3.4" in certain medium actions, and we have a 3.15" magazine that fits certain short actions. Given the popularity of Tikka, we also make a 3.5" DBM and Mag for Tikkas.

All this make a huge different in performance. A long throated 300 WSM with a +P throat can shoot Berger 215s to 2900 fps+ from 22-24" barrels. A SAAMI 300 WSM can't even come close, IF you can even seat that bullet so the ogive is forward of the case mouth.

The 300 RUM and 338 Edge really need a 3.95ish COAL to be happy with heavy for caliber bullets, and the 338 Lapua IMP likes it as well. In the past, we just had to single feed these or accept too short of COALs.

In one of my M-70s, I installed a Wyatt's box (3.825"), long throated it, did a +P throat, and chambered it in 33-28 Nosler. It achieved 2925 fps with a Berger 300 OTM in a 26" barrel.

When it comes to straightish walled 458 cal cases, COAL is a huge factor in case capacity. The main reason to stretch maximize these COALs isn't to achieve higher velocities, it's to achieve the same velocities at a little lower pressure.

That is the main reason, along with building a Lott on my CZ, I'll be putting a Wyatt's box in my M-70 416 Rem. At 2430 FPS the 400 grain SAF hammered my buffalo, but in a 3.825" magazine box it will get that velocity at a little lower pressure. It will also allow me to better run 400 grain monos.

Long throats and long magazines are so common nowadays that it is beyond ludicrous to make the argument you are making about the 458 Win and 458 Lott. Anyone who can afford to go on a DG hunt can easily afford the few dollars it takes to optimize the magazine and throat on their 458 Lott or whatever.

At last some semse.......
458WM clan will always find a way to try and justify......
I dont like 458WM will never.....

I am happy for them that they have found a thread where they can justify the caliber.....well done enjoy......

 

[saswart]

Always of interest.
What are the Cartridge Overall Lengths of those ?

Express - 94 mm / Lott - 92.5mm / WM - 86.5mm

@saswart If I may ask, what propellant are you using for the 458 Lott 500 gr Impala solid load please?

N540 - I have the express

As can be seen, yes different bullets, but al three very close to same speed. No animal would really notice the difference. The one (WM) is possible very high pressure, Lott less and the Express is a “softer load” compared to what it could achieve in theory…

 

[KTMpilot]

Express - 94 mm / Lott - 92.5mm / WM - 86.5mm

N540 - I have the express

As can be seen, yes different bullets, but al three very close to same speed. No animal would really notice the difference. The one (WM) is possible very high pressure, Lott less and the Express is a “softer load” compared to what it could achieve in theory…

Dankbaar

 

[WAB]

intj,
I see.
You just like to be contrary whenever the whim suits you.
Kind of childish.
Might as well start with the basics:
COAL is something that is burned for heat.
Cartridge Overall Length is more properly abbreviated as COL.
IRP ! (Immediate Response Please).

You need to take your grammatical correction to the publishers of many reloading manuals. You will see COAL, LOA and COL commonly used. Has the argument really degenerated to this???

 

[Grumpy gumpy]

You need to take your grammatical correction to the publishers of many reloading manuals. You will see COAL, LOA and COL commonly used. Has the argument really degenerated to this???

Yes.
When you need to justify your position by repeating the same thing continually and bordering on rudeness, petty arguments devolve
Gumpy

 

[intj]

The one positive thing to take out of all the nonsense on this thread, is that how far a bullet intrudes into the case is a very important factor in case capacity and thus cartridge performance.

Of course, this concept has been known for many decades. That is why things such as longer magazine boxes and throating reamers exist. That is a huge part of how the company where I work specs out custom rifle builds. It is what has driven our longer detachable magazine boxes and our use of custom actions that have long magazine openings.

A 458 Win Mag at 3.6" is significantly different than one at 3.4". And a Lott at 3.85" is significantly different than one at 3.6". Again, this isn't anything that hasn't been known for decades.

My first Lott was throated long enough so that the COAL exceeded the CZ magazine length. I suspect most custom Lotts are seated on the longer side.

Like I posted earlier, performance gains can be significant with proper throating. With DG rounds, I think the better rationale for increasing case capacity is to lower pressure at the desired velocity rather than hot rod it.

If you have curiosity on how to increase throat length, magazine length, and the pros and cons of doing so, PM me.

 

[ldmay375]

I like both cartridges.

But from the 2ea 458 Winchesters and 2ea
458 Lotts that I have, they can be fairly substantial differences in the throats of both. Not a big obstacle for a hand loader. Though I can see .2 or more plus or minus side, producing the proverbial "fast barrels" or "slow barrel" or not giving expected results.

Agree, available magazine length, throat, and bullet shape / length need to match to optimize / maximize either cartridge.
An unaltered factory rifle and factory ammunition has a lot of leeway for positive or negative opinion results in both cartridges.

Someone else's hand loads for either cartridge in another rifle has the potential for a bad experience. Which in my opinion applies to all cartridges / calibers. Lots of chamber and throat variations in many factory rifles. Sometimes of the same manufacturer of the same rifle.

Edit:
I do want to clarify the magazines, and throats obviously, of both the MRC and CZ will take a bit longer COL than I put on the photos. That is just my current personal COL, not the ultimate maximization of the rifle / cartridge combinations.

 

[ldmay375]

Express - 94 mm / Lott - 92.5mm / WM - 86.5mm

N540 - I have the express

As can be seen, yes different bullets, but al three very close to same speed. No animal would really notice the difference. The one (WM) is possible very high pressure, Lott less and the Express is a “softer load” compared to what it could achieve in theory…

Thank you.
If I converted the COL to inches and rounded off properly:

458 Express, 94mm = 3.701"
458 Lott, 92.5mm = 3.641"
458 Winchester, 86.5mm = 3.40"

 

[ldmay375]

The one positive thing to take out of all the nonsense on this thread, is that how far a bullet intrudes into the case is a very important factor in case capacity and thus cartridge performance.

Of course, this concept has been known for many decades. That is why things such as longer magazine boxes and throating reamers exist. That is a huge part of how the company where I work specs out custom rifle builds. It is what has driven our longer detachable magazine boxes and our use of custom actions that have long magazine openings.

A 458 Win Mag at 3.6" is significantly different than one at 3.4". And a Lott at 3.85" is significantly different than one at 3.6". Again, this isn't anything that hasn't been known for decades.

My first Lott was throated long enough so that the COAL exceeded the CZ magazine length. I suspect most custom Lotts are seated on the longer side.

Like I posted earlier, performance gains can be significant with proper throating. With DG rounds, I think the better rationale for increasing case capacity is to lower pressure at the desired velocity rather than hot rod it.

If you have curiosity on how to increase throat length, magazine length, and the pros and cons of doing so, PM me.

I agree the COL and throat differences, and performances have been known for decades, by most hand loaders.
But, there are many that either don't know it, or refuse to believe it.
It is certainly not black magic nor wishful imagination.

 

[hoytcanon]

The difference between "book" learning and experience learning is dramatic on this subject.

 

[Riflecrank]

LOL!! I realize that people believe what they want to believe, but still........

No one who knows a modicum about bolt action rifles will shoehorn a cartridge into too short of a magazine. A huge focus of the custom rifle building industry is to maximize the potential of each cartridge. This has been going on for years.

Many OEMs, probably in an effort to minimize costs, married themselves to a 3.4" magazine length. At first, it made sense, but it quickly reached the point of absurdity. The biggest example I can think of is Winchester putting a spacer in their 3.6" magazine boxes for many cartridges that worked better in longer magazine boxes. These cartridges worked better in longer magazine boxes well before the current trend of using heavy for caliber bullets. I have been removing magazine spacers, and shortening bolt stops and ejectors, on my M-70s for 20+ years. Later I started milling receivers to use Kevin Wyatt's magazine boxes.

Some OEMs broke the 3.4" restriction and Settled on 3.7" (Remington), but they became stuck there. Some OEMs like Tikka have regressed, offering a 300 Win Mag in their 3.4" magazine box. Some OEMs have done better, like CZ with their 3.850 length, but most of the solutions are in the aftermarket and custom gun world.

My company has worked very hard to address this well known issue. We have a DBM that will allow a 3.95" OAL. This works well on several premium aftermarket long actions and even a modified Remmy. We have a medium length DBM that allows 3.4" in certain medium actions, and we have a 3.15" magazine that fits certain short actions. Given the popularity of Tikka, we also make a 3.5" DBM and Mag for Tikkas.

All this make a huge different in performance. A long throated 300 WSM with a +P throat can shoot Berger 215s to 2900 fps+ from 22-24" barrels. A SAAMI 300 WSM can't even come close, IF you can even seat that bullet so the ogive is forward of the case mouth.

The 300 RUM and 338 Edge really need a 3.95ish COAL to be happy with heavy for caliber bullets, and the 338 Lapua IMP likes it as well. In the past, we just had to single feed these or accept too short of COALs.

In one of my M-70s, I installed a Wyatt's box (3.825"), long throated it, did a +P throat, and chambered it in 33-28 Nosler. It achieved 2925 fps with a Berger 300 OTM in a 26" barrel.

When it comes to straightish walled 458 cal cases, COAL is a huge factor in case capacity. The main reason to stretch maximize these COALs isn't to achieve higher velocities, it's to achieve the same velocities at a little lower pressure.

That is the main reason, along with building a Lott on my CZ, I'll be putting a Wyatt's box in my M-70 416 Rem. At 2430 FPS the 400 grain SAF hammered my buffalo, but in a 3.825" magazine box it will get that velocity at a little lower pressure. It will also allow me to better run 400 grain monos.

Long throats and long magazines are so common nowadays that it is beyond ludicrous to make the argument you are making about the 458 Win and 458 Lott. Anyone who can afford to go on a DG hunt can easily afford the few dollars it takes to optimize the magazine and throat on their 458 Lott or whatever.

Yes a lot of reloading manuals will illiterately use the wrong abbreviations for COL (COAL or the even sillier LOA that doesn't even include the C for cartridge).
I am a Kentuckian who started grade school in Mississippi during the Bay of Pigs crisis but even I have some sense of grammar.
Should we abbreviate Outside Diameter as "OSD" instead of "OD" ?

I was just trying to start with the basics for intj as he seemed to have worked himself into a slobbering frenzy, yet everything he was saying was supporting what I said about the SAAMI .458 WinMag and .458 WM+ handloading.

You Lottites provide a lot of entertainment.

 

[Riflecrank]

Yes, what a joke the .458 Express 3" was at the end of the last century.
Folks soon learned that the .458 Lott loaded long in a longer-than-SAAMI throat could do everything better, including brass availability.
Seems that Bertram case above has been retired for use only in dummy rounds.

Similarly, we devotees of the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chamber have discovered no need for the SAAMI-chambered .458 Lott. But I do keep one longer-throated .458 Lott Special on hand just for nostalgia's sake, plus, I have made it up to resemble Phil Soemaker's Ol'Ugly.
I call my .458 Lott Special "Ol'Fugly."

Brown Precision fiberglass stock on a Whitworth MK X .458 WinMag that sadly had its magazine and chamber bastardized to .458 Lott.
At least the barreled-action and stock started off like Phil's.
I wish I had kept it a .458 WinMag.
At least I can fire the same loads in the .458 Lott brass as I use in the ,458 WM+ handloads for all my other SAAMI .458 WinMags, without damaging Ol'Fugly the .458 Lott.

 

[WAB]

Yes a lot of reloading manuals will illiterately use the wrong abbreviations for COL (COAL or the even sillier LOA that doesn't even include the C for cartridge).
I am a Kentuckian who started grade school in Mississippi during the Bay of Pigs crisis but even I have some sense of grammar.
Should we abbreviate Outside Diameter as "OSD" instead of "OD" ?

I was just trying to start with the basics for intj as he seemed to have worked himself into a slobbering frenzy, yet everything he was saying was supporting what I said about the SAAMI .458 WinMag and .458 WM+ handloading.

You Lottites provide a lot of entertainment.

That knife cuts both ways!

 

[Riflecrank]

Express - 94 mm / Lott - 92.5mm / WM - 86.5mm

N540 - I have the express

As can be seen, yes different bullets, but al three very close to same speed. No animal would really notice the difference. The one (WM) is possible very high pressure, Lott less and the Express is a “softer load” compared to what it could achieve in theory…

The .458 WinMag with 500-grainer at 2170 fps and 3.406" COL is a low pressure load unless the Eland soft is a very weird bullet.
I would be surprised if that load had pressure over 60,000 psi.

In theory about the .458 Express 3" ?
.458 Express 3" throated like a SAAMI .458 WinMag and loaded in a Ruger No. 1 with the proper compressed load of slow-enough propellant to keep pressures below the 62,500 psi MAP of the SAAMI .458 Lott.
Is that the theory ?

BTW, CIP allows the same MAP to both the .458 WinMag and the .458 Lott.
What Norma specifies in their reloading manual:

458 Winchester Magnum: "4300 bar/62365 psi"

458 Lott: "4300 bar/62366 psi"

Rounded down for the WinMag and rounded up for the Lott.
1 psi advantage to the Lott.
Always trying to feather the nest of the .458 Lott !

CIP loads for the .458 WinMag are routinely .458 WM+ loads by SAAMI standards,
since SAAMI limits the .458 WinMag to 60,000 psi and allows the .458 Lott 62,500 psi.
They know they have to use higher pressures in the SAAMI .458 Lott to give it any advantage at all
versus the .458 WinMag.

Norma shows a 500-gr load for the .458 WinMag at 2175 fps from a 24" barrel of 1:14" twist.
with 73.5 grains of Norma 201.

Norma was so embarrassed by what they got for their .458 Lott, they decided to publish only reduced loads for the .458 Lott.

500-gr bullet in the .458 Lott at 2092 fps from a 24" barrel of 1:14" twist (not 1:10" per SAAMI/CIP)
with 75.9 grains of Norma 201.

More powder burned for less velocity. What's to like about that ?

 

[Riflecrank]

Glad to see WAB is enjoying this.
I am too.