458 Win Mag vs 458 Lott....The facts

Yes indeed, one must know his rifle.

This paper-patch-BPCR method of Randolph S. Wright may be adapted for comparing throats (excellent book):

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My doodling on a tool:
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I will try to reply to everything. If I miss something let me know.

All of these rifles were bought used. Though, all appeared as dang near new, literally.
So, I am assuming the throats were as factory reamed.
The MRC magazine is a nominal 3.6", perhaps a tiny longer. I actually load it to 3.5960" to allow me, real or imagined comfort level on COL and ogive variations.

The Winchester Model 70 Super Express throat surprised the heck out of me. I measured, re-measured and Re-measured ...
But, they came out consistent. This one may be a potential candidate for one of the spare 3.6" replacement magazines that I have around here. But, I will probably be putting it in a fiberglass stock, before the additional recoil. I would say throat erosion is not a factor on this one. It literally looked like new. I think I got 2 or 3 boxes of the Hornady super-whatever 500 grain with it, missing with 2 or 3 fired brass in one box.

The CZ had a trip to AHR prior to my purchase. But it also looked new. Now that one, I never bothered to measure. I shot some factory loads through it. I sort of did, but realized the 450's were dang near out of the brass, and the test COL cartridge from the MRC at 3.8205" worked through the magazine without issue. And called it good enough since all my Lott loads were for the MRC. Heck, I just "assumed" it was a SAAMI Winchester throat. Which would have been no issue with the MRC loaded lengths since I was not looking to maximize it.

Edit: I had a picture of the AHR work order on the CZ. No chamber work was listed.
 
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Just for interest, from left to right. 458 Express 3” (shooter shoots a 500 gr Peregrine solid bullet at 2250fps from a Brno ZKK 602), 458 Lott (500gr Impala solid at 2272 fps - CZ550), 458 Win Mag (500gr Claw soft, 2170fps - Brno zkk 602). Note seating depths

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Just for interest, from left to right. 458 Express 3” (shooter shoots a 500 gr Peregrine solid bullet at 2250fps from a Brno ZKK 602), 458 Lott (500gr Impala solid at 2272 fps - CZ550), 458 Win Mag (500gr Claw soft, 2170fps - Brno zkk 602). Note seating depths
Always of interest.
What are the Cartridge Overall Lengths of those ?
 
Just for interest, from left to right. 458 Express 3” (shooter shoots a 500 gr Peregrine solid bullet at 2250fps from a Brno ZKK 602), 458 Lott (500gr Impala solid at 2272 fps - CZ550), 458 Win Mag (500gr Claw soft, 2170fps - Brno zkk 602). Note seating depths

View attachment 649331
@saswart If I may ask, what propellant are you using for the 458 Lott 500 gr Impala solid load please?
 
LOL!! I realize that people believe what they want to believe, but still........

No one who knows a modicum about bolt action rifles will shoehorn a cartridge into too short of a magazine. A huge focus of the custom rifle building industry is to maximize the potential of each cartridge. This has been going on for years.

Many OEMs, probably in an effort to minimize costs, married themselves to a 3.4" magazine length. At first, it made sense, but it quickly reached the point of absurdity. The biggest example I can think of is Winchester putting a spacer in their 3.6" magazine boxes for many cartridges that worked better in longer magazine boxes. These cartridges worked better in longer magazine boxes well before the current trend of using heavy for caliber bullets. I have been removing magazine spacers, and shortening bolt stops and ejectors, on my M-70s for 20+ years. Later I started milling receivers to use Kevin Wyatt's magazine boxes.

Some OEMs broke the 3.4" restriction and Settled on 3.7" (Remington), but they became stuck there. Some OEMs like Tikka have regressed, offering a 300 Win Mag in their 3.4" magazine box. Some OEMs have done better, like CZ with their 3.850 length, but most of the solutions are in the aftermarket and custom gun world.

My company has worked very hard to address this well known issue. We have a DBM that will allow a 3.95" OAL. This works well on several premium aftermarket long actions and even a modified Remmy. We have a medium length DBM that allows 3.4" in certain medium actions, and we have a 3.15" magazine that fits certain short actions. Given the popularity of Tikka, we also make a 3.5" DBM and Mag for Tikkas.

All this make a huge different in performance. A long throated 300 WSM with a +P throat can shoot Berger 215s to 2900 fps+ from 22-24" barrels. A SAAMI 300 WSM can't even come close, IF you can even seat that bullet so the ogive is forward of the case mouth.

The 300 RUM and 338 Edge really need a 3.95ish COAL to be happy with heavy for caliber bullets, and the 338 Lapua IMP likes it as well. In the past, we just had to single feed these or accept too short of COALs.

In one of my M-70s, I installed a Wyatt's box (3.825"), long throated it, did a +P throat, and chambered it in 33-28 Nosler. It achieved 2925 fps with a Berger 300 OTM in a 26" barrel.

When it comes to straightish walled 458 cal cases, COAL is a huge factor in case capacity. The main reason to stretch maximize these COALs isn't to achieve higher velocities, it's to achieve the same velocities at a little lower pressure.

That is the main reason, along with building a Lott on my CZ, I'll be putting a Wyatt's box in my M-70 416 Rem. At 2430 FPS the 400 grain SAF hammered my buffalo, but in a 3.825" magazine box it will get that velocity at a little lower pressure. It will also allow me to better run 400 grain monos.

Long throats and long magazines are so common nowadays that it is beyond ludicrous to make the argument you are making about the 458 Win and 458 Lott. Anyone who can afford to go on a DG hunt can easily afford the few dollars it takes to optimize the magazine and throat on their 458 Lott or whatever.
At last some semse.......
458WM clan will always find a way to try and justify......
I dont like 458WM will never.....

I am happy for them that they have found a thread where they can justify the caliber.....well done enjoy......
 
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Always of interest.
What are the Cartridge Overall Lengths of those ?
Express - 94 mm / Lott - 92.5mm / WM - 86.5mm
@saswart If I may ask, what propellant are you using for the 458 Lott 500 gr Impala solid load please?
N540 - I have the express

As can be seen, yes different bullets, but al three very close to same speed. No animal would really notice the difference. The one (WM) is possible very high pressure, Lott less and the Express is a “softer load” compared to what it could achieve in theory…
 
Express - 94 mm / Lott - 92.5mm / WM - 86.5mm

N540 - I have the express

As can be seen, yes different bullets, but al three very close to same speed. No animal would really notice the difference. The one (WM) is possible very high pressure, Lott less and the Express is a “softer load” compared to what it could achieve in theory…

Dankbaar (y)
 
intj,
I see.
You just like to be contrary whenever the whim suits you.
Kind of childish.
Might as well start with the basics:
COAL is something that is burned for heat.
Cartridge Overall Length is more properly abbreviated as COL.
IRP ! (Immediate Response Please).

You need to take your grammatical correction to the publishers of many reloading manuals. You will see COAL, LOA and COL commonly used. Has the argument really degenerated to this???
 

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