450/400 3" double as a stopping rifle?

[Ontario Hunter]

For almost four decades Selby used only a 416 Rigby as his dangerous game stopping rifle. And Wally Johnson had a long career killing elephants with just a 375 Model 70. Both men clearly had the means to outfit themselves with bazookas. Guess they felt it wasn't necessary?

 

[IvW]

matt85, So you think that a 300 grain 375 bullet at 2,500 fps mv would be better than a 300 grain 458 bullet at the same speed?

Absolutely......

 

[IvW]

For almost four decades Selby used only a 416 Rigby as his dangerous game stopping rifle. And Wally Johnson had a long career killing elephants with just a 375 Model 70. Both men clearly had the means to outfit themselves with bazookas. Guess they felt it wasn't necessary?

Wake up.....

 

[Brian]

BeeMaa,

Your response is revealing. Please give me some time to process it. Thanks,

Brian

BeeMaa, I never stated that I had any intensions of using a 45-70 for cape buffalo.
I did state, however that I use a 500 and a 577. for cape buffalo and usually get one shot DRT kills.

( Actually, I do have a 45-70 barrel for my single shot rifles and I state now that I would be very confident in killing cape buffalo with them using Peregrine bullets, Cutting edge bullets or NorthFork bullets. )

There are many cape buffalo hunters who hunt cape buffalo with proper bullets for one shot kills. In addition you can easily extend/ream the throat of a 45-70 out a bit a get 45-90 power with moderate pressures. That little modification takes you right into the low side of 458 WM ! Does that blow your hair back ?

Also, when was the last time that you talked to a PH that knew much about the modern specialty bullets like the Peregrine BushMaster, NorthFork CPS and SS, Cutting Edge Bullets?

PH's are known to be excellent hunters but most of them are far too busy making a living to spent time researching new esoteric bullets when the bullets that the are currently using "work OK". ( And some Ph's just use left over ammo, what ever it is, from their clients.) Just read some of the posts placed here on AH by some of the "expert" PH's.

The quotes that you posted are not very relevant. Your first quote is from Michael M. who is the designer/developer of the #13 CEB solid and the CEB Safari Raptor and he praises the CEB bullets in 458 cal at 2,500 fps over the 375 cal 300 grain bullet at the same muzzle velocity. ( You should write Michael M. and ask him if he likes the 375 for cape buffalo.) I must say that your other two quotes are pointless.

Also, BeeMaa, my old friend, when the 450WM first came out it was praised to high heaven, but the factories soon had to reduce the powder charge due to the limitations in powder choices at the time for tropical countries and the relative short case size of the 458WM. The factories had to produce 458 WM ammo it at reduced, near 45-70 velocities, for a few years in secrecy. Few people know this, at the time and the "famous" 458 WM continued to receive rave reviews as a cape buffalo and elephant killer even though at the time it functioned about like a hot loaded 45-70 from a 26 inch barrel. Go figure ! ( Later, when better powders were developed the factories got the velocities of the 458WM up to the advertised numbers and the 458 WM became the awesome cartridge it was advertised to be. This bit of history is still denied today by some big bore aficionados.)

A lot of well meaning contributors on these hunting/shooting forums post old, outdated theories concepts that they picked have picked up along the way from other well meaning experts, not to mention any names, chuckle, and no offence intended to anyone.

Bullet technology has advanced significantly in the last decade. Do you research.

Cheers,
Brian

 

[Brian]

Yes. Because you will lose sectional density, meaning the ability of a bullet to drive in a straight line through tissue and bone.

Sorry but SD is another outdated myth in regards to temninal ballistic.
1- The SD of a bullet is irrelevant, other that a good solid, because the shape and size of the bullet changes as soon as it gets into the animal.
2. Research in the last decade has proven that straight line penetration is a function of bullet nose profile not SD, re CEB #13 and NorthFork CPS Solid with 67% of diameter calibre flat meplat versus traditional round nose solid. Research, Pard, research. Brian

 

[Brian]

Absolutely......

Absolutely......

IvW. You are so wrong. ( "absolutely" my arse! chuckle.)
If all the factors, like velocity, bullet placement and bullet quality are similar, bullet diameter is the single significant killing factor in hunting cape buffalo.

Remember, back a few years ago when you, knowing nothing about my situation or age, dumped on me for shooting cape buffalo from a blind, but, you never mentioned anything about me knocking down cape buffalo, DRT, with a 577, 700 grain bullet at a very slow 1,770 fps mv, or dropping those two buffalo with a 50-110, 410 grain bullet at a measly 1,920 fps, mv.

I think that I even showed a video of it, if I remember correctly.

Well that was perfectly definitive and conclusive example of what we are talking about here, bullet diameter trumping velocity, other factors being similar.

So IvW, my good friend, that was when I first realized that you are probably a very decent fellow, if not a bit judgemental at times and maybe ill informed to boot.

Cheers,

Brian

 

[BeeMaa]

@Brian - If you are the center of all ballistic knowledge as your posts seem to suggest, why do you seek council or input from anyone else?

 

[rookhawk]

Was it Pondoro Taylor that made this statement, or is it an amalgamation of his wisdom?

Any gun that shoots a 40 cal or larger bullet weighing 400gr or more, with an impact velocity at the target of 1900fps will kill any animal?

I was not impressed with my 375HH on buffalo, but it could have been a dodgy case of Federal 300gr A-frames that was the culprit. The 450-400 earned its reputation as a buffalo slayer buy the fact it had better outcomes than the 375HH. That bullet diameter seems to make a wound channel just big enough to make all the difference.

Don’t hate me, I’m just the parrot. Anything over 40 cal has served me well on angry critters.

 

[SRvet]

Howdy, Can you help me out a bit here, please?

I have a young pal here in Kamloops that wants to go cape buffalo hunting and he is pretty serious. He is a better shot/hunter than me and can easily handle his 375 Ruger.

Well, you know me, I am trying to coax him to into at least a .458 Win mag. and he is not biting. He said he is not interested in the 458 WM recoil. I have a nice 458WM with a 23 inch barrel with a fat Limbsaver recoil pad that he could use and I told him that I would load it down just a tad for his delicate shoulder, he chuckled bit and said he would give it whirl off of sticks at the range.

So, before I get into this too wound up on this, ( I don't want to load up a dozen 458 A Frame bullets if I am on the wrong track.) I think I should first just check with you guys for what you think of this.

What say you about a 458 WM loader to about 2,050 fps with a 400 grain A Frame bullet or a 400 grain CEB Raptor, for a cape buffalo killer? That is close to what a 458WM Factory Load used to be back in the 70's.

Thanks for your input, much appreciated. Brian

For practice rounds I load my .458 Win Mag and .458 Lott cartridges with cheap 405 grain jacketed 45/70 bullets. I haven’t had any issues matching muzzle energies to approximate the recoil of hunting loads. No need to waste A-frames!

 

[WAB]

Absolutely ammo availability is a factor, at least to the PH's I've spoken with. At the same time, many of them reload so it's important...but not paramount depending on components.

As for 416RM vs 416RUGER...The ballistics are nearly identical. I suppose it could come down to what rifle is available at the time as well as the ammo issue.

Now using a 416RM (or equivalent) as a stopping rifle. Every PH I've talked to has said that TRUE stopping rifles start a .458 caliber and go up from there. This is not my opinion, it's theirs. If my PH decided to use a 416RM or 375H&H, I would not question his choices. He's the pro, I'm the client...I'll stay in my lane.

Not sure how many actually reload outside of SA. I believe that Reloading is illegal in a number of DG countries.

 

[Brian]

@Brian - If you are the center of all ballistic knowledge as your posts seem to suggest, why do you seek council or input from anyone else?

BeeMaa, Thanks for asking. you ask a good question.

Sometimes it's difficult being better informed than other, but that is how I am. I'm a trained researcher. and I used to be a sociologist by profession and I still am fascinated by how people respond to trends especially waves of advertising. Like it just about knocks me off of my horse to see how so many wealthy, well educated people would go after cape buffalo with these terrible Hornady DG bullets and wonder why it take 4-6 good shots shot with a 500NE to bring a buffalo down. Then next year they go back to Africa to hunt buffalo with the same shitty bullet.

Most people find it works best for them if they just buy the best marketed product. For me, I like to investigate stuff and now that I am retired I have a lot more time to do it.

I am interested in investigating sale and marketing trends too, like why people think the 450-400NE and the .375HH are much more effective than they actually are is, and why they love these cartridges for buffalo even with the commonly available mediocre bullets that are always on the gun store shelves.

This type of investigating is a hobby with me and I learn more by not acting like a "know it all' when I try to learn stuff.


You watch, one day all of a sudden, maybe it is happening right now, the 45-70 will no longer be just a lame old "cowboy gun."

Remember when the 450-400 NE got no love. ( It was just an outdated cartridge.) All of a sudden with the timely burst of energy from Hornady and Ruger it is now the the cat's ass for cape buffalo.

Sometimes I start a discussion on a hunting forum to learn things and what I am trying to learn is sometimes not what it seems. If I act like I am the "centre of all ballistic knowledge" ( well said.) I usually don't learn much.

However, sometimes, after reading so many uninformed post I just snap and say it how it really is.
I don't mean to piss people off but that is sometimes what happens.

Don't get me wrong, there are people on these forums who know a lot more about bullets and ballistics than I do. I love to learn new things, fact that is, not fiction. I learn a lot from these aficionados.

I suggest paying close attention to Michael458 and his circle of pals. You can also find him on B&M Rifles and Cartridges. You may not like his stuff because he and his kind have moved far past the usual old worn out concept and beliefs that most shooter want to ruminate on.

We DG hunters owe these innovators a lot for their work on DG bullets.

Brian

 

[Brian]

Recoil.

The first time I used my .577NE on cape buffalo was only my third buffalo hunt and I was pretty wound up. I made a finishing shot at a few yards on a buffalo on the ground and I remember clearly commenting that the recoil of my .577NE felt more like a 30-06. Recoil, like a knock in contact sports can be very subjective. Like in boxing or foot ball, once you get warmed up you can "take a licking' and keep on ticking'".

Brian

 

[Brian]

BeeMaa,
I just read your excellent PG hunting reporting in 2019 for you and your wife. Good job, nice report.
Did you ever get back to hunt buffalo as you said you wanted to?
There are some good deals on buffalo right now in Limpopo due to the droughts.
Cheers, Brian

 

[Kevin Peacocke]

If the 450/400 is not enough then why does many PHs carry a 375 HH ?

Good question. I know a number of PH's who do and I would hazard the explanation that that is all they can afford.

 

[Brian]

Keven, Good point, that is the case with many of us, me included. Brian

 

[TXTad]

Good question. I know a number of PH's who do and I would hazard the explanation that that is all they can afford.

I suspect "it's what they had" or "it's what they could afford" have affected the gear choices of many adventurers, professionals, and such for millennia. Later generations then spend much time pondering these gear choices with great reverence, looking for hidden meanings and wisdom that just isn't there.

 

[Brian]

TXTad, I appreciate your summary. Very true, I think, Brian

 

[Brian]

Here is the website of the researcher and developers of Cutting Edge Bullets. B&M Rifles and Cartridges.
I have no investment or formal connection with them at all, I just enjoy sharing the best information on dangerous game bullets that I know of. Enjoy, Brian

Non Conventional Bullets

Non Conventional Bullets

www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com

 

[Mark A Ouellette]

Here is the website of the researcher and developers of Cutting Edge Bullets. B&M Rifles and Cartridges.
I have no investment or formal connection with them at all, I just enjoy sharing the best information on dangerous game bullets that I know of. Enjoy, Brian

Non Conventional Bullets

Non Conventional Bullets

www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com

That's our AH brother @michael458 !

 

[Brian]

Here is another excellent website of bullet innovators. I use the BushMaster VRG3 for cape buffalo, outstanding cape buffalo bullet. They are based in Pretoria.

Peregrine Bullets

Discover unparalleled precision and performance at Peregrine Bullets, your ultimate destination for handcrafted excellence. Immerse yourself in a world where expertise meets artistry, as we redefine standards through our curated collection. Elevate your experience with a fusion of innovation and...

peregrinebullets.com