45-70 for dangerous game?

[F. Vaccaro]

I don't push that bullet that hard in my .458 Lott at 9½ lbs. Congratulations you have survived some serious recoil in a #1. I can only imagine what it would do up against the Lott with my full power loads. Not fun I'm guessing. What was the load, if you don't mind?

I was mistaken, chronographed velocity was 2196fps, extreme spread was 28fps. I tested it on 8-27-83, the data is in the Speer #11 loading manual. Newer Speer manuals don’t list data for RL7, so I prefer not to give my load, I will say it was just below maximum & listed for the RUGER #1 a very strong action. It took some rummaging to find my old data. Thanks for the interest.

 

[Forrest Halley]

I was mistaken, chronographed velocity was 2196fps, extreme spread was 28fps. I tested it on 8-27-83, the data is in the Speer #11 loading manual. Newer Speer manuals don’t list data for RL7, so I prefer not to give my load, I will say it was just below maximum & listed for the RUGER #1 a very strong action. It took some rummaging to find my old data. Thanks for the interest.

Can you just take a picture of the page and post it? My library card doesn't give me access to such data.

 

[HWL]

I do have a SxS in .45-70.

Is it at least good for leopard & lion?

HWL

 

[WebleyGreene455]

I do have a SxS in .45-70.

Is it at least good for leopard & lion?

HWL

I've seen multiple claims that .45-70 is fine for cougar, so if leopards are an close enough analogue in terms of size and body structure... Maybe?

 

[F. Vaccaro]

Can you just take a picture of the page and post it? My library card doesn't give me access to such data.

I don’t know how to post picts, but there may be a Speer #11 manual available. I never throw away an old loading manual. The old Speer #9 (stagecoach) manual lists loads that today would be considered “proof” loads.

 

[F. Vaccaro]

I don’t know how to post picts, but there may be a Speer #11 manual available. I never throw away an old loading manual. The old Speer #9 (stagecoach) manual lists loads that today would be considered “proof” loads.

I should have said Speer #8 is the Stagecoach manual not #9 it’s the #8.
sorry for the mistake.

 

[pamtnman]

Thank you thank you thank you to Michael458 and Tundra Tiger here for this incredibly useful discussion. I recently purchased a new Ruger Marlin 1895 SBL in 45-70 strictly for hunting in Alaska and on our bear drives here in PA. The older reloading manuals are of course not up to speed with the newest bullet technology, such as Cutting Edge Bullets, and even the newer manuals are only beginning to touch on modern bullets, and even then it's usually only the bullets made by that particular manufacturer (Hornady, Speer etc), and so it is only here on forums like this where the actual field reports and practical information are found. This has been so very helpful. Happy New Year to everyone

 

[Ontario Hunter]

I had a mate asking about how viable it would be to take a Baikal double rifle chambered for the .45/70 as a dangerous game rifle on a trip he is panning. My advice was don't do it! And I can't imagine a PH that would let you in camp with that combination.

Another friend who shot hundreds of buffalo in Australa n the 1980's went from the .375H&H to .458 Win and then the .458 Ackley Magnum; and that's where he stopped. Happy with his buffalo gun. So I shoot with the same and it's a brilliantly powerful cartridge.

There's plenty of info around that purports the .45/70 to be at least adequate:
45-70 in Africa?
Garrett Cartridges Inc.
Rifles & Guns for African Game

I took over a Baikal 45-70 for a lodge operator. It was bored out to 45-90. Legally it was my gun but I never shot it. No way! It weighed maybe seven pounds at most and had a straight English grip. I have fragile retinas. During a layover in Zurich I did some internet research. Turns out this modification has been done by others but always with a very strong caution that 45-90 loads should not exceed the max for 45-70. I'm no reloading wizard but I don't see how opening it up to 45-90 would get this gun over the legal limit for DGR.

Just curious, does 405 Winchester qualify?

 

[86thecat]

It's all been said a thousand times before, in a thousand other threads.
To me, using a marginal cartridge shows lack of respect for the game animal by increasing the chance of losing a wounded animal and creating unnecessary suffering.
A lack of respect for hunting in general by not caring about a clean kill or overconfidence in ones ability to pull off the perfect shot every time.
And a lack of respect for the PH, as he is the one that will bear the brunt of any legal issues if someone gets injured or killed and he has allowed a hunter to use a cartridge not meeting game law minimums.
Just my opinion, but I wouldn't hunt rabbit with a Red Ryder or hunt elk with a .223, even though it may work most of the time.
It's not a problem in today's world to buy, rent or borrow a proper DG rifle.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

A part of me thought about not responding, because I am not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine.

Marginal cartridge? Everything is marginal at a point, depending on the specific circumstances. You make a lot of assumptions in your post. I will address only one, specific to my two buffalo hunts. I consulted with my PH (who is also the owner) at every step of the way, in developing the load I used in the gun I chose. If at any point he had said "NoPe! This isn't going to work" I would have abided by his decision. Please ask him if he feels like I had a lack of respect for him in choosing the gun and cartridge I did. (he is a sponsor on this site)

There are so many factors that go into the choice of what weapon to hunt with, beyond simply the caliber or rifle selected. My two buffalo would not have been any more dead had they been shot with a larger caliber. I do not believe they suffered because of my choice in rifles or calibers - both were dead in about a literal ten count, after a single shot.

You see a lack of respect. I do as well, in painting everyone with the same brush because their choices don't align with what you would choose.

 

[pamtnman]

Couldn't have said it better meself, Tundra Tiger, and it needed to be said. Thank you.
My two cents: Jiminy crickets, some people.....

 

[michael458]

Marginal Cartridge, Marginal rifle, ........... I have news for you, "The Bullet Does all The Heavy Lifting"

I suppose here that cartridge such as 458 Lott is considered Not Marginal. Choose poor ass, old conventional bullets and that is what is "Marginal"........... I would take a 45/70 loaded with one of the CEB Properly Designed SOlids over a 458 Lott with ROUND NOSE SOlids every single day of the week. The RN is a crap shoot, it might, it can, it has, and then many times it has NOT done what it should have done, and that caused wounded and lost game. This Flat Nose Design will absolutely do what it is supposed to do, every single time, drive deep and straight.

The last 10-12 years Bullet Tech has changed EVERYTHING you ever knew or thought you knew about bullets................

Just recently, an untried bullet came to me for testing. A 400 gr Hammer Trauma inflicting bullet in .458 caliber. I tested, results were just great, massive trauma with a 458 Winchester and then tested again in my 458 B*M EX. At the end, I told the guy it was Buffalo Worthy. They took the bullet for buffalo and buffalo was DRT on the spot, end of story, and it has been used in this same capacity now a few times and with excellent Results.........

Bullet Tech employed correctly enhances what might have been considered "Marginal" by some 20 years ago, and now that is no longer so.

It is all about the bullet............

 

[Doug Hamilton]

The 45-70 was the choice of NA buffalo hunters and renouned for being able to go end for end on a Buffalo at 1000 paces. True or not the near extinction of once uncountable numbers of animals is tribute to the 45-70s ability to get the job done on big tough game.

Well, not exactly. The .45-70 was.not the primary choice of buffalo hunters. It was a short range, black powder, single shot carbine by the military. Yes, some were used to kill the occasional bison, but probably not many big bulls. The professional buffalo hunters generally used much more powerful cartridges with heavier bullets. None of them actually caused the near extinction of the bison. They got the blame, but more recent studies have shown that the great dying of the bison herds was the result of diseases introduced by domestic cattle.
With modern powders the .45-70 is now a much more powerful round than it was at the time of the great buffalo herds. It has been used to take cape buffalo, but on the whole, bison are not as tough, or as likely to try and kill you. I have taken two cape buffalo and wrangled a bunch of bison. They just aren't the same animal, and I wouldn't want to use a .45-70 on an African buffalo hunt. Leopard, yes, lion maybe, but nothing bigger.

 

[mdwest]

And a lack of respect for the PH, as he is the one that will bear the brunt of any legal issues if someone gets injured or killed and he has allowed a hunter to use a cartridge not meeting game law minimums.

What game law minimum?

if we're talking a country (Namibia) where joules of energy is the measurement for legality.. then sure.. most 45-70 loads are going to fall below the legal requirement..

but if were talking about countries where caliber dictates (.375 and above).. then there is no legal issue.. (South Africa, Zambia, Zimbabwe, Botswana, etc)..

people hunt dangerous game with handguns that dont come close to meeting the ballistics a 45-70 produces.. they hunt dangerous game with archery equipment that doesnt deliver anything close to the terminal ballistics that a 45-70 produces..

Im not advocating shooting a buff with a 45-70 (or not shooting one).. but making a statement that a hunter lacks respect for his PH and that the PH is going to bear the brunt of legal issues because the cartridge didnt meet game law minimums is a bit preposterous dont you think?

 

[F. Vaccaro]

There is more dangerous game than Cape Buffalo. Here we have grizzlies in most of our elk country, I submit grizzlies are dangerous though not legally huntabe. It would be more self defense.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

It's fine for the American/Asian bears (all species) and African/Asian leopards. For other African/Asian dangerous game, it would make for an extremely poor choice.

Yes, it has seen a few cases of success against African dangerous game via picked shots. It can kill a cow elephant with a side brain shot provided that the bullet passes above the zygomatic arch. But picked shots cannot dictate the suitability of a caliber for dangerous game.

 

[pamtnman]

sometimes i wonder if people actually read a comment thread, or just throw their old opinion up just because they have an opinion on a subject that they want to share. it happens not just here, this phenomenon happens on every single website whether it's about old cars, heavy equipment, logging, hunting, trapping, guns, you name it. these comments out of the blue are more a study in psychology than technical shooting information. i would like to thank Tundra Tiger and Michael458 here for really helping me hugely on the subject of the 45-70, with actual field information and technical/reloading data. new powders and really new bullets have changed the performance of just about every hunting cartridge, whether it's an old black powder case now being shot nitro-for-black, or a tried-and-true bottleneck case being taken to new heights. whichever cartridge is being discussed, one might want to read the updated technical information other posters bring to the discussion before posting an opinion based on fifty year old information. but that's just my approach.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

I have noticed that too @pamtnman . Heck, I am probably guilty of it from time to time. Though I do make an effort to try and stay on point.

 

[Rafiki]

Take a look at Garrett Cartridge. The 45-70 is their meat & spuds. There's some pretty good info to sort through on their site. Do NOT even consider Leverevolution if you like living.

 

[Tundra Tiger]

@Rafiki ... I assume your comment about the LEVER ammo is specific to DG? (and I do not disagree)