.425 Express?

[Ontario Hunter]

Well, I never asked the gunsmith do me a job with the thought in mind, what is the reselling price of what I order? I normally do the thinking first and after that, I order, pay the price and keep it for lifetime.

You have mentioned all the arguments I had evenso when comming up with this .425 project.
While planing, the 416 Taylor was an option too, but .416 bullets weren't available in RSA, never mind any other classic brass or bullets. RSA was strictly sanctioned because of apartheid and You had to use what the gods offered You!
I had to deal with components, which were around, like 300 Win brass, .423 Bullets, K98 actions and a barrel in 0.423.
So .425 Express wasn't love on first sight and in the end a more logical thing, but we grew together, became best friends. I will keep this gun until my last shot has faded away!

The "last shot" for me is not that far down the road. At some point I will need to liquidate excess baggage so my daughters aren't saddled with the heartache of having to do it. This build would not be anything with significant family attachment. Not like the Springfield 03A3 Dad built for me or the 760 Rem 30-06 Mom's father gave them when I was born. So it would be built with selling in mind. But primary purpose would simply be the challenge and something to do.

Gunsmith would not be building this rifle. No fun in that. I will do it.

The brass issue would not be a significant obstacle except for resale. But I guess having two guns that shoot the same big bullet doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Already dealing with that. Mom's 760 hasn't been out of the safe in years. 333 Jeffery is starting to grow on me.

 

[Certus]

@Badboymelvin

 

[Badboymelvin]

@Badboymelvin

Hello mate!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I am considering building a 425 Express so thought I might revive this thread. As most of you know, I already successfully built a 404 Jeffery on 98 Mauser.

First, I think @Rosch has exaggerated the damage needed to convert a standard 98 Mauser into 404. Perhaps he is confusing with 375 and 416? I did not change the locking ring on my action, only the feeding ramp and rails. Also a small amount of metal removed from inside the rear ring so cartridges can clear for ejection (not too much or extractor will lose contact with track). None of that will compromise the strength of the receiver. Building 416R and 375 H&H does require trimming back some of the locking ring to expand the ejection port.

For me the attractions of 425 Express are manifold. The cases are belted with shoulder vs 404 beltless with almost no defined shoulder. Cases for the 404 must be very precisely sized or the cartridges will not snap over when dropped in the action. They will push ahead instead and get stuck in the chamber. Ask me how I know! This is never an issue with belted cartridges. And for any DGR snap over is essential, in my book anyway.

425 Express utilizes 404J bullets and 300 Win brass. Bullets are not terribly hard to find and brass is downright abundant.

425 Express can be gassed up to 416 Rigby plateau if desirable. I understand recoil is manageable if loads are not super fast and the gun has some weight. No real difference from 404 in that regard.

The chief downside of course is brass with the proper headstamp. It's out there but hard to find and expensive. How important is it? I've been to Africa four times and no one has yet looked at my ammo either going or returning. "Yep, there's two boxes in there. Sign on the dotted line. See ya." I suppose the worse that could happen is the ammo could get confiscated and I'd have to rent a rifle at the lodge. Actually, I think I'd just load up a dummy round or two to demonstrate that they fit the rifle if someone decides to get picky. Might be enough to convince them. Or just order a box of custom brass for Africa and use 300 Win cases at the range. A minor inconvenience.

I'm not sure what's involved in making belted brass feed properly from 98 Mauser magazine. Can't be too serious considering the popularity of 300WM in similar design CRF rifles (i.e. Model 70). However, I know I DO NOT want to tackle the feeding issues for rebated rim. That's why 425 Westley Richards is off the table.

And lastly, resale value would be a big question mark. I can liquidate my 404 fairly readily but moving a 425 Express would likely not be easy. I think it's a great cartridge with a lot of potential, but it is unknown. And it's not a "classic" British cartridge, having only been developed by a couple of American guys in the 1980s. And we all know how important it is for African hunters to be outfitted with classic British thumper guns (even if topped with an electronic scope ).

@Ontario Hunter
The 425 Express that @Badboymelvin owns is a really pussy cat with full power loads. He is the man to ask about the 425
Bob

 

[Badboymelvin]

As others have mentioned, l have a 425 Express that was built by Farmboy at NT Firearms Gove.

It is built on a Zastava action and as one would expect from a custom rifle, it feeds, cycles, ejects and performs flawlessly.

I currently use 2 loads in my 425 Express, the 400gn Hornady DGX at a leisurely 2300fps and the 360gn copper Atomic29 HP at just under 2500fps.
Recoil is stout - especially off the bench.

With my rifle l also ordered 100 pieces of brass, 50 that l'm using and 50 unused.
My brass has the correct headstamp.

I've owned a few big cartridges now and l think the 425 Express could possibly be my favourite.
It hits hard, shoots pretty flat and can be made to fit a variety of rifles.

I absolutely love my rifle and the 425 Express cartridge.

Russ

My custom 425 Express

Here is the whole family, .338WM - 425 Express - .458WM - .300WM

Correct Headstamp is always a bonus

It looks all business when loaded with the Atomic 29 hollowpoint projectile

 

[Rosch]

Recoil is stout - especially off the bench.



View attachment 626409
My custom 425 Express

Thats no surprise! First your gunstock is too slim, You could fix that by filling some silicon mixed with birdshot into the hollow at the end of the stock . If possible also in the front under the barrel. Brings some weight to the stock. Second, You should have choosen a much thicker barrel. Rugers Alascan shows, how a barrel can be short and heavy. No open sights? What if the gun falls and the scope says goodbye?

 

[Badboymelvin]

Thats no surprise! First your gunstock is too slim, You could fix that by filling some silicon mixed with birdshot into the hollow at the end of the stock . If possible also in the front under the barrel. Brings some weight to the stock. Second, You should have choosen a much thicker barrel. Rugers Alascan shows, how a barrel can be short and heavy. No open sights? What if the gun falls and the scope says goodbye?
View attachment 626141

Hey,
You can build your rifle however you want - and l will do the same.
If you want short thick barrels, go right ahead... l did not.
l DID NOT choose the wrong stock or barrel for MY rifle.
In my eyes, my rifle is perfect for the hunting l do and the conditions l hunt in - and l certainly will not be adding birdshot or new barrels.
In over 30 years of hunting l have never had a Leupold scope fail me in the field and I've never dropped a rifle and taken a scope out of commission, so I've never had to rely on open sights while out hunting - YMMV.
I built this rifle for me. If it's not to someone else's taste that's really not my concern...

Russ

 

[Rosch]

Hey,
You can build your rifle however you want - and l will do the same.
If you want short thick barrels, go right ahead... l did not.
l DID NOT choose the wrong stock or barrel for MY rifle.
In my eyes, my rifle is perfect for the hunting l do and the conditions l hunt in - and l certainly will not be adding birdshot or new barrels.
In over 30 years of hunting l have never had a Leupold scope fail me in the field and I've never dropped a rifle and taken a scope out of commission, so I've never had to rely on open sights while out hunting - YMMV.
I built this rifle for me. If it's not to someone else's taste that's really not my concern...

Russ

Holy polly .... Sorry for being forward!
You wrote Yourself, the recoil ist stout?
Allready in school, physics wasn't everyones.
Please, create Your dream gun with 30 years experience, choose Your parts as You wish or just spare them out and .... take the punch!

 

[Certus]

Hey,
You can build your rifle however you want - and l will do the same.
If you want short thick barrels, go right ahead... l did not.
l DID NOT choose the wrong stock or barrel for MY rifle.
In my eyes, my rifle is perfect for the hunting l do and the conditions l hunt in - and l certainly will not be adding birdshot or new barrels.
In over 30 years of hunting l have never had a Leupold scope fail me in the field and I've never dropped a rifle and taken a scope out of commission, so I've never had to rely on open sights while out hunting - YMMV.
I built this rifle for me. If it's not to someone else's taste that's really not my concern...

Russ

Short thick barrels look clubby anyways. Length looks good and is practical for other reasons (modest velocity gains, and if you have open sights the longer sighting radius is better)

Hey,
You can build your rifle however you want - and l will do the same.
If you want short thick barrels, go right ahead... l did not.
l DID NOT choose the wrong stock or barrel for MY rifle.
In my eyes, my rifle is perfect for the hunting l do and the conditions l hunt in - and l certainly will not be adding birdshot or new barrels.
In over 30 years of hunting l have never had a Leupold scope fail me in the field and I've never dropped a rifle and taken a scope out of commission, so I've never had to rely on open sights while out hunting - YMMV.
I built this rifle for me. If it's not to someone else's taste that's really not my concern...

Russ

 

[Rosch]

Short thick barrels look clubby anyways. Length looks good and is practical for other reasons (modest velocity gains, and if you have open sights the longer sighting radius is better)

Haha, well, in Africa not many things survive which just look good!
May be it looks clubby, but it has to work! Ruger has chosen those shapes of barrels out of a reason, and thats because they not just work, those barrels are very handy, do add some weight to the big bore gun and this supports balance and handling means results on the other end!
These features do tame recoil too!
Wasn‘t this the issue?

 

[Certus]

Haha, well, in Africa not many things survive which just look good!
May be it looks clubby, but it has to work! Ruger has chosen those shapes of barrels out of a reason, and thats because they not just work, those barrels are very handy, do add some weight to the big bore gun and this supports balance and handling means results on the other end!
These features do tame recoil too!
Wasn‘t this the issue?

Does that mean the Brit’s got it wrong with their long barrels? Short and stubby is a more modern trend.

 

[Rosch]

Does that mean the Brit’s got it wrong with their long barrels? Short and stubby is a more modern trend.

Maybe the "Brits" had these days other reasons for long barrels like cordite powder as fuel which needed long barrels to built up pressure? Short barrels do have a long tradition here in Germany because of the handyness. The few feet/sec bulletspeed You loose with short barrels are no argument in hide- or in this case Big Game hunting, because You don't shoot far over the horizon.
I'm surprised, that You obviously think RUGER is a bunch of stupid gun smith, frickkeling something clubby together to have a new design for the next shot show?
You can see they are all together smart asses because of so many well thought details on their guns, which makes them (for me) just perfect!
Strong action with long extractor (like K98), great trigger without any shit, good dimension barrels for quick and effective off hand shooting, strong straight waetherproof gun stocks from Hogue with perfect fit, over barrel sling swivel, over barrel front sight, stainless steel, and so on and so on.
All together that looks for me like: Not much missing to an expensive custom gun!

 

[Certus]

Maybe the "Brits" had these days other reasons for long barrels like cordite powder as fuel which needed long barrels to built up pressure? Short barrels do have a long tradition here in Germany because of the handyness. The few feet/sec bulletspeed You loose with short barrels are no argument in hide- or in this case Big Game hunting, because You don't shoot far over the horizon.
I'm surprised, that You obviously think RUGER is a bunch of stupid gun smith, frickkeling something clubby together to have a new design for the next shot show?
You can see they are all together smart asses because of so many well thought details on their guns, which makes them (for me) just perfect!
Strong action with long extractor (like K98), great trigger without any shit, good dimension barrels for quick and effective off hand shooting, strong straight waetherproof gun stocks from Hogue with perfect fit, over barrel sling swivel, over barrel front sight, stainless steel, and so on and so on.
All together that looks for me like: Not much missing to an expensive custom gun!

I’m well aware of the powders at the time and those requirements. They still build em long.

Totally wrong of your assessment of me. Nicely done to speak so strongly and so harshly on an incorrect notion. I quite like rugers and how they handle and look. Doesn’t mean they don’t look clubby.

No need for swearing. Especially in this context. I hear enough of that on a day to day basis that it’s a nice reprieve that most here don’t regularly post such vulgarity.

 

[Rosch]

I’m well aware of the powders at the time and those requirements. They still build em long.

Totally wrong of your assessment of me. Nicely done to speak so strongly and so harshly on an incorrect notion. I quite like rugers and how they handle and look. Doesn’t mean they don’t look clubby.

No need for swearing. Especially in this context. I hear enough of that on a day to day basis that it’s a nice reprieve that most here don’t regularly post such vulgarity.

May be the „disagreement“ comes from that I know exactly what I‘m talking about, but You just guess and think loud! Why don‘t You just write to H&H and ask directly those who do things we‘re talking about?
I did, some years ago with the CEO of Ruger at Nürnberg IWA and he explained piece by piece what they did and what customers they‘re looking for! Besides, he had then the brandnew 416 Ruger with him to promote it in Germany!
So my words are out of very first hand! How bout Yours?

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Maybe the "Brits" had these days other reasons for long barrels like cordite powder as fuel which needed long barrels to built up pressure? Short barrels do have a long tradition here in Germany because of the handyness. The few feet/sec bulletspeed You loose with short barrels are no argument in hide- or in this case Big Game hunting, because You don't shoot far over the horizon.
I'm surprised, that You obviously think RUGER is a bunch of stupid gun smith, frickkeling something clubby together to have a new design for the next shot show?
You can see they are all together smart asses because of so many well thought details on their guns, which makes them (for me) just perfect!
Strong action with long extractor (like K98), great trigger without any shit, good dimension barrels for quick and effective off hand shooting, strong straight waetherproof gun stocks from Hogue with perfect fit, over barrel sling swivel, over barrel front sight, stainless steel, and so on and so on.
All together that looks for me like: Not much missing to an expensive custom gun!

Honestly, I do not see the attraction for barrel band sling swivels or front sights. In theory the barrel band sling swivel is supposed to provide some kind of advantage sneaking through heavy cover with gun slung on shoulder. I have spent over half a century tracking animals in heavy cover, usually in snow. The gun is typically not on my shoulder then. I don't want snow, rain, needles, leaves, etc falling on the lens of my scope. The forend is typically held with right hand, forearm supporting under rifle, scope tucked next to my body with butt under my right armpit. Left hand helps keep balance, pushes brush out of the way, etc. Slinging the rifle lower means the butt stock is more likely to bump into my thigh/butt, especially when climbing steep hills. Barrel band sling swivel might have some potential use in Africa (certainly debatable) but for North American guide gun I see exactly the opposite: a disadvantage.

As for short barrels, they may be "handy" but typically the rifle is not balanced well. A rifle that is poorly balanced points poorly, especially at moving targets.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hey,
You can build your rifle however you want - and l will do the same.
If you want short thick barrels, go right ahead... l did not.
l DID NOT choose the wrong stock or barrel for MY rifle.
In my eyes, my rifle is perfect for the hunting l do and the conditions l hunt in - and l certainly will not be adding birdshot or new barrels.
In over 30 years of hunting l have never had a Leupold scope fail me in the field and I've never dropped a rifle and taken a scope out of commission, so I've never had to rely on open sights while out hunting - YMMV.
I built this rifle for me. If it's not to someone else's taste that's really not my concern...

Russ

@Badboymelvin
Your rifle is ideal for what you want mate. Even fits me like a glove. The stock is just fine for mitigating recoil as I find it a pussy cat that roars.
Ideal weight for that sambar country.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Haha, well, in Africa not many things survive which just look good!
May be it looks clubby, but it has to work! Ruger has chosen those shapes of barrels out of a reason, and thats because they not just work, those barrels are very handy, do add some weight to the big bore gun and this supports balance and handling means results on the other end!
These features do tame recoil too!
Wasn‘t this the issue?

@Rosch
Recoil was only an issue off the bench the same as any of the big bores. In a proper shooting position @Badboymelvin rifle has a kittens caress. Dang even my Whelen off the bench with 310s at 2,455fps let's you know you have pulled the trigger.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

@Rosch
Ruger got the design right for their cartridge and needs. Some like stubby and thick others like longer. It's all a matter of taste. I personally like a longer barrel, 25" suits me fine and dandy. A little stubby Ruger looks like a toy in my hands. Shit even Russ's full size zastava looks little on my shoulder.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

May be the „disagreement“ comes from that I know exactly what I‘m talking about, but You just guess and think loud! Why don‘t You just write to H&H and ask directly those who do things we‘re talking about?
I did, some years ago with the CEO of Ruger at Nürnberg IWA and he explained piece by piece what they did and what customers they‘re looking for! Besides, he had then the brandnew 416 Ruger with him to promote it in Germany!
So my words are out of very first hand! How bout Yours?

@Rosch
Play nicely mate there's people here that have far more knowledge and experience than you but they don't hang crap like that. Rifles like women are personal in taste. No one is knocking your choice so don't knock others for theirs.
I've been shooting for 60 years and the only thing I can complain about is the invention of the 243.
I may not like the blaser R8 but can still appreciate the functionality of it.
TO EACH THEIR OWN.
Bob

 

[cajunchefray]

@Rosch
Recoil was only an issue off the bench the same as any of the big bores. In a proper shooting position @Badboymelvin rifle has a kittens caress. Dang even my Whelen off the bench with 310s at 2,455fps let's you know you have pulled the trigger.
Bob

@Bob Nelson 35Whelen
The 270 Winchester (or 25-06) is just a kitten's kiss.
The .35 Whelen is just a maiden's kiss.
The .425 Express (or .404 Jeffery, .416 Taylor, et.al) is a woman's kiss.

All are nice.
And good rifles.