.416 vs .458: Just how tough are Nilgai?

[Deleted member 53080]

Then I must remind you that South Africa is a place you do not want to hunt. The game in South Africa is rarely native to the ranches you hunt and they are all fenced by law in some fashion. East Cape hunting for Oryx only found in the Kalahari originally? Mountain Reedbok in the grasslands? Oribi? Dik-Dik? Limpopo hunts for Springbok?

The bio diversity of South Africa is manmade. The volume of animals in each state of South Africa is a modern, post-1960 invention of captive propagation. The landscape used to have half the types of creatures and each one was localized to a specific zone. Now they are everywhere.

Even in the USA, there are whitetails where they ought not have been and mule deer in new areas. Man has moved the animals or altered the ecosystem resulting in indigenous game's reduction in numbers and non-indigenous game taking over that ecosystem. Some is adaptation to the environment, other is propagation by man.

Every large game animal in Australia and New Zealand is an introduced species.

The only pure places I can think of would be the rural western states, Canada, Alaska, Tanzania, Zimbabwe, and Zambia. (not counting Asia...I know nothing about it)

Purity requirements create very short hunting destination lists unless you're willing to be a bit of a hypocrite. I am willing on some occasions.

No need for reminding me. I definitely understand what you’re saying. Many places are not on my list and it’s for that reason that it’s going to take me longer to get there.

 

[rookhawk]

I do feel that way no matter what continent is being discussed. I plan to be very careful about where I go when and if I ever get to Africa. Free range is free range and a good hunt. Whether certain species should be here in the first place is the question. It’s very hard to reconcile proper native wildlife management and these practices

I used to think just like you. Then the more I studied history, the more problematic it became.

Vermont - Whitetail deer were limited to one valley in history until modern times.

UP Michigan - Whitetail deer are non-native. They were brought up on boxcars to create herds to feed the iron miners.

Illinois - The prairie state was predominantly bison and a now extinct species of elk. The prairie is gone and now its the ugliest, flattest ag fields in the nation. Also containing some of the largest whitetail deer ever hunted.

I can give you a hundred more examples but I assure you, the pure sport you are conducting today is actually bastardized sport on terraformed land chasing after non-native game from imported stock. There are very, very few places in North America where you might be hunting indigenous animals in unmolested habitat. Even fewer in of such places in Africa.

 

[John Wasmuth]

So glad this is America where we can chose to do what we wish. Exotic hunting isn’t for everyone nor is it in every ones budget, which is we’re a lot of the “it ain’t hunting” comes from.

 

[Red Leg]

Racket was a poor word to use. I do maintain that most high fence hunting operations in the US are a “racket”. Classic put and take practices, mail order animals, selective breeding purely for trophy quality, overstocked property requiring supplemental feeding year round etc... constitutes a hunting “racket” in my book. This doesn’t apply to places like the King BUT if they were still focused primarily on raising livestock like a legitimate ranch should be and were so concerned with native wildlife they wouldn’t allow an exotic species like the nilgai to thrive and spread to their neighbors

You really need to do a little research on Texas land management and wildlife habitat before offering conclusive opinions about what constitutes a "legitimate" ranch.

The vast majority of South Texas ranches (as in 99.9%) are not game ranches breeding exotic animals. Perhaps you missed it in my previous posts, but these animals range through vast acreages (the King Ranch alone is bigger than Rhode Island) unrestrained by game fences. King Ranch does exactly zero controlled exotic breeding and is world famous for its registered Santa Gertrudis cattle that were created on the ranch. The other South Texas ranches are also cattle ranches. They have to be, because it is not generally good oil or gas terrain. Their other major cash generator is hunting with most of that focus on whitetail. Creatures like the Nilgai compete with both those commercial interests.

That said, the Nilgai, Aoudad, etc can pay their way by offering unique hunting opportunities for less than a third the cost of a trophy whitetail. These are demanding free range hunts. If that offends your sensibilities, fine - don't participate and good luck in Pakistan. They may not be native, but the big Blue bulls have been running free on our south coastal range for a century. They probably at least qualify as dreamers.

The Hill Country of Texas is the American Limpopo with game ranch after game ranch. It is pretty lousy cattle country, but is a natural home for game from similar climate zones. I suggest you avoid Kerrville while avoiding South Africa.

 

[rookhawk]

They may not be native, but the big Blue bulls have been running free on our south coastal range for a century. They probably at least qualify as dreamers.

I spit coffee out my nose when I read this sentence. @Red Leg you have a good sense of humor.

Truly, Nilgai have been in the State of Texas just slightly less time than deer have been in most of Vermont or the UP of Michigan. Cervid anchor-babies?

 

[Red Leg]

I spit coffee out my nose when I read this sentence. @Red Leg you have a good sense of humor.

Truly, Nilgai have been in the State of Texas just slightly less time than deer have been in most of Vermont or the UP of Michigan. Cervid anchor-babies?

 

[Deleted member 53080]

I used to think just like you. Then the more I studied history, the more problematic it became.

Vermont - Whitetail deer were limited to one valley in history until modern times.

UP Michigan - Whitetail deer are non-native. They were brought up on boxcars to create herds to feed the iron miners.

Illinois - The prairie state was predominantly bison and a now extinct species of elk. The prairie is gone and now its the ugliest, flattest ag fields in the nation. Also containing some of the largest whitetail deer ever hunted.

I can give you a hundred more examples but I assure you, the pure sport you are conducting today is actually bastardized sport on terraformed land chasing after non-native game from imported stock. There are very, very few places in North America where you might be hunting indigenous animals in unmolested habitat. Even fewer in of such places in Africa.

Many species in the US were nearly hunted to extinction in many states and territories and I submit that it’s nigh impossible to know the extent of their true native range. Highly plausible that white tail were once in the rest of Vermont. I am in favor of reintroduction of native species where feasible. I agree about the unmolested habitat although it wasn’t something I addressed as I try to be a realist most of the time. Livestock raising and farming are molestation of natural habitat but necessary and in many cases they coexist with native species just fine. I know times have changed and as One Day... so often points out, we’re not all jumping on a steam ship to British East Africa for a 3 month plus safari but lines need to be drawn somewhere

 

[rookhawk]

Many species in the US were nearly hunted to extinction in many states and territories and I submit that it’s nigh impossible to know the extent of their true native range. Highly plausible that white tail were once in the rest of Vermont. I am in favor of reintroduction of native species where feasible. I agree about the unmolested habitat although it wasn’t something I addressed as I try to be a realist most of the time. Livestock raising and farming are molestation of natural habitat but necessary and in many cases they coexist with native species just fine. I know times have changed and as One Day... so often points out, we’re not all jumping on a steam ship to British East Africa for a 3 month plus safari but lines need to be drawn somewhere

True, but the quotes I was giving you were for introductions, not re-introductions. Yes, most of America's white tail DNA is Wisconsin Whitetail DNA today, but there were many places that had Elk (7 species of which 3 are left) and with their demise, along with several bison species, and the changing landscape, it made room for a cervid. The 20th century was about introducing those cervids to landscapes they never previously inhabited.

That's why I was saying it gets hard to decide where to draw the line. If you're a purist, Zimbabwe, Zambia, and Tanzania are as close as you're going to get.

 

[Deleted member 53080]

You really need to do a little research on Texas land management and wildlife habitat before offering conclusive opinions about what constitutes a "legitimate" ranch.

The vast majority of South Texas ranches (as in 99.9%) are not game ranches breeding exotic animals. Perhaps you missed it in my previous posts, but these animals range through vast acreages (the King Ranch alone is bigger than Rhode Island) unrestrained by game fences. King Ranch does exactly zero controlled exotic breeding and is world famous for its registered Santa Gertrudis cattle that were created on the ranch. The other South Texas ranches are also cattle ranches. They have to be, because it is not generally good oil or gas terrain. Their other major cash generator is hunting with most of that focus on whitetail. Creatures like the Nilgai compete with both those commercial interests.

That said, the Nilgai, Aoudad, etc can pay their way by offering unique hunting opportunities for less than a third the cost of a trophy whitetail. These are demanding free range hunts. If that offends your sensibilities, fine - don't participate and good luck in Pakistan. They may not be native, but the big Blue bulls have been running free on our south coastal range for a century. They probably at least qualify as dreamers.

The Hill Country of Texas is the American Limpopo with game ranch after game ranch. It is pretty lousy cattle country, but is a natural home for game from similar climate zones. I suggest you avoid Kerrville while avoiding South Africa.

You and I probably have a separate definition of a legitimate ranch.

You really need to take your own advice and look back through my posts. Perhaps you missed where I did put the King Ranch in a separate category. While they do not breed or import anymore they do allow an introduced, invasive species to thrive and spread to their neighbors in pursuit of their own economic advancement. They say the deer, javelina, turkey and quail thrive on their vast property and I’m sure they do. Obviously their cattle operations (which I am familiar with lol) do well. I wonder how much better both would do if they didn’t compete with something like 18,000+ nilgai? I’m not attacking the free range nature of their nilgai hunts. If they were truly concerned with the competition with their white tail hunting, which I may add no legitimate ranch would take part in, and cattle operations they would probably put a little more effort into getting rid of them. That argument doesn’t hold water. I’ll likely never make it to Pakistan but it’s nice to dream. I do always enjoy your snark

Ah yes, the game “ranches” of the Hill Country, sacrificing principle and making a killing. As I mentioned before, many of those species shouldn’t be here.

 

[Deleted member 53080]

True, but the quotes I was giving you were for introductions, not re-introductions. Yes, most of America's white tail DNA is Wisconsin Whitetail DNA today, but there were many places that had Elk (7 species of which 3 are left) and with their demise, along with several bison species, and the changing landscape, it made room for a cervid. The 20th century was about introducing those cervids to landscapes they never previously inhabited.

That's why I was saying it gets hard to decide where to draw the line. If you're a purist, Zimbabwe, Zambia, and Tanzania are as close as you're going to get.

I understand and agree to an extent. I would just reiterate that it would be extremely difficult to know for certain where exactly whitetail were and weren’t pertaining to the eastern US for example. It’s hard to tell with the ridiculous level of over hunting that occurred. That same logic can be applied to other species as well (here and in Africa) but some cases are more possible, probable, or plausible than others.

With my planned budget Zimbabwe or Zambia are my likely destinations.

 

[Red Leg]

You and I probably have a separate definition of a legitimate ranch.

You really need to take your own advice and look back through my posts. Perhaps you missed where I did put the King Ranch in a separate category. While they do not breed or import anymore they do allow an introduced, invasive species to thrive and spread to their neighbors in pursuit of their own economic advancement. They say the deer, javelina, turkey and quail thrive on their vast property and I’m sure they do. Obviously their cattle operations (which I am familiar with lol) do well. I wonder how much better both would do if they didn’t compete with something like 18,000+ nilgai? I’m not attacking the free range nature of their nilgai hunts. If they were truly concerned with the competition with their white tail hunting, which I may add no legitimate ranch would take part in, and cattle operations they would probably put a little more effort into getting rid of them. That argument doesn’t hold water. I’ll likely never make it to Pakistan but it’s nice to dream. I do always enjoy your snark

Ah yes, the game “ranches” of the Hill Country, sacrificing principle and making a killing. As I mentioned before, many of those species shouldn’t be here.

"If they were truly concerned with the competition with their white tail hunting, which I may add no legitimate ranch would take part in"

I think I understand your position on only hunting native species in something approximating their native environment. I think it is silly when that ethic excludes free range non-native species, but I at least understand what you are saying. Help me with the above clause. I do not understand what you are trying to say, and that may run to the heart of what constitutes our mutual confusion about the other's definition of legitimate ranching operations.

And Mozambique is another country worth exploring from a native game animal perspective. It is my favorite African destination to hunt.

 

[Professor Mawla]

For all intent and purpose there is no public hunting land in Texas. If you want to hunt you own land, lease land or have friends/family who own land.

There are many free ranging Nilgai in Texas, their genesis I believe is from Nilgai that escaped from high fence ranches. The Nilgai I’ve killed were free range, on property with a standard four strand barbed wire fence.

All of the Axis deer I’ve killed were free range too, on my sister’s property, low fence.

View attachment 400761

@Dwight Beagle
That is a very enviable Axis deer . Here is one of my largest specimens .

Axis deer are native to our Sundarban mangrove forests . In 1978 , President Ziaur Rahman released six pairs of these animals into Monpura ( an isolated region in the southern point of our country ) . Today , there are thousands of them in the region ( thanks to having no natural predator ) and are quite a popular delicacy amongst local hunters . I hunt three of them every year .

I can also seen countless Axis deer in my second home in Texas . However , I prefer hunting whitetail deer and mule deer whenever I visit the United States ( once every alternate year ) , but that is only because of how routinely I hunt Axis deer in Bangladesh. Axis deer feed on gooseberry plants in Bangladesh. Do they feed on the same in the United States ?

 

[Professor Mawla]

Perhaps Professor Mawla knows the latest? That's a long time ago. I've heard of PAC-type hunts. Not much desire to go there these days...America is just fine for Indian species.

@C.W. Richter
India is the last place where people like us would want to go . Huning has been completely banned there since 1972 and import of firearms has been banned there since 1983 . Eating or being found in the possession of beef there , is treated as if you consumed heroine or possessed heroine . Indians view hunting , firearms ownership and meat eating as if they are the most deplorable sins on earth . If they could , they would also get hunting banned here in Bangladesh ( and also the rest of the world ) . Fortunately , our local people in East Bengal are a resilient breed who treat hunting like a part of everyday life .

 

[rookhawk]

You and I probably have a separate definition of a legitimate ranch.

You really need to take your own advice and look back through my posts. Perhaps you missed where I did put the King Ranch in a separate category. While they do not breed or import anymore they do allow an introduced, invasive species to thrive and spread to their neighbors in pursuit of their own economic advancement. They say the deer, javelina, turkey and quail thrive on their vast property and I’m sure they do. Obviously their cattle operations (which I am familiar with lol) do well. I wonder how much better both would do if they didn’t compete with something like 18,000+ nilgai? I’m not attacking the free range nature of their nilgai hunts. If they were truly concerned with the competition with their white tail hunting, which I may add no legitimate ranch would take part in, and cattle operations they would probably put a little more effort into getting rid of them. That argument doesn’t hold water. I’ll likely never make it to Pakistan but it’s nice to dream. I do always enjoy your snark

Ah yes, the game “ranches” of the Hill Country, sacrificing principle and making a killing. As I mentioned before, many of those species shouldn’t be here.

@Wishfulthinker580

I hear what you are saying and you're entitled to your preference for wild places. I'd like to remind you that truly wild, unmolested places are largely wildlife sh1th0l3s. Nature is a pretty dumpy place in most areas of the planet. Animals run unchecked, kill all the game, then die of starvation, then you have rampant infestations of small species that boom, then the predators catch back up to eat the abundant prey, and thus the 7 year or 100 year cycle continues of boom-and-bust nature.

Managed wildlife arrests that. We manage the native and non-native species providing additional feed and habitat to encourage some, eradication programs to eliminate others, culling programs to curb the growth of yet others. We install waterholes that turn migratory boom-and-bust wastelands into 365 day a year viable ecosystems that were natural crapholes. In fact, we did that not just in America but in places like Hwange National Park in Zimbabwe. It was a wasteland in 1930 with virtually no life except for rainy season migration corridor use. Today, with nearly 30 waterholes, its one of the most abundant wildlife areas in the world that holds the largest elephant population in the world. Those game species are non-native, most never lived there until the addition of water, and plants, and prey, made it a desirable full-year ecosystem.

Every ecosystem we hunt has been altered by man at some level or we are intercepting game on their way to altered ecosystems. (ambushing Montana elk on the way to the hayfields?)

You have to be proud of your hunting and that you are enjoying fair chase on your terms, but purity of species and ecosystems is a myth in 99.9% of the world. I can't see my way to condemn wild Texas Nilgai and instead go kill an Upper Michigan Whitetail. Both are stocked. Both are now abundant, managed, wildlife. Ironically, the less molested of the two is Texas as the Nilgai live in habitat that has been unaltered in many ways for millennia whereas the whitetail deer of Upper Michigan is living in mixed vegetation we created over a century of deforestation programs. In reality, elk belong in Upper Michigan and we should go exterminate all those deer in the spirit of bringing earth back into its unmolested condition.

 

[rookhawk]

@C.W. Richter
India is the last place where people like us would want to go . Huning has been completely banned there since 1972 and import of firearms has been banned there since 1983 . Eating or being found in the possession of beef there , is treated as if you consumed heroine or possessed heroine . Indians view hunting , firearms ownership and meat eating as if they are the most deplorable sins on earth . If they could , they would also get hunting banned here in Bangladesh ( and also the rest of the world ) . Fortunately , our local people in East Bengal are a resilient breed who treat hunting like a part of everyday life .

@Professor Mawla this is so true. I find that most of my Indian hunting friends are either Sikh or Muslim, more practical views on the consumption of meat and hunting in general. However, it is interesting that there are a few (and growing) American-Indian Hindus that are getting into hunting and fishing over here. A few members of this forum appear to have Hindu names and do indeed hunt as well. Times are changing. As you know, Hindus anti-gun, anti-hunting practices are largely new phenomena even though most of them think it goes back millennia. Pre-partition India was a hunter's paradise and there were more than a few Brahman's eating the forbidden fruit!

 

[rookhawk]

I understand and agree to an extent. I would just reiterate that it would be extremely difficult to know for certain where exactly whitetail were and weren’t pertaining to the eastern US for example. It’s hard to tell with the ridiculous level of over hunting that occurred. That same logic can be applied to other species as well (here and in Africa) but some cases are more possible, probable, or plausible than others.

With my planned budget Zimbabwe or Zambia are my likely destinations.

The data on this topic is robust. We know exactly where whitetails were and were not. We know that whitetails were stocked around the year 500 in Curacao. We know that they were stocked in Vermont in 1890. We know that the DNA shows that most whitetails today are "Wisconsin bloodlines". We know that 4 extinct species of elk and 2 extinct species of buffalo occupied most of the terrain that whitetails now enjoy. We know exactly what the french explorers and Lewis & Clark documented. We know from the geologic record and microbial analysis what the habitat was, whether it was viable for game like deer, and if there was any evidence of their presence.

We even know that the American Pronghorn Antelope's closest living relative is the African Giraffe. Sometimes man does the transplantation, sometimes nature does it. We just do it faster.

What's truly amazing is with DNA analysis, we now know for fact that deer stocking has been happening in the Americas for at least 2000 years. White Europeans didn't come up with these ideas at a Texas bar 80 years ago.

 

[Deleted member 53080]

"If they were truly concerned with the competition with their white tail hunting, which I may add no legitimate ranch would take part in"

I think I understand your position on only hunting native species in something approximating their native environment. I think it is silly when that ethic excludes free range non-native species, but I at least understand what you are saying. Help me with the above clause. I do not understand what you are trying to say, and that may run to the heart of what constitutes our mutual confusion about the other's definition of legitimate ranching operations.

And Mozambique is another destination worth exploring from a native game animal perspective. It is my favorite African destination to hunt.

I’m not excluding free range hunts on non-native species. A free range hunt on 825k acres is a heck of a hunt no matter what the animal is. Where we differ is that I’m more in favor with an approach similar to the one we share concerning feral hogs in the US.

What constitutes a legitimate ranch to me is actually quite simple: It is one whose core focus is on the breeding and raising of livestock (cattle, sheep, goats) in an economically viable manner, one who does not participate in non traditional (in ranching terms) industries like hunting (no matter the species) and one who makes an effort to adhere to traditional practices. Also, size matters. There are many more nuances to the issue but those are the main ones.

I honestly haven’t considered Mozambique yet but I may. Definitely wild Africa. I have mainly been interested in Zim from the beginning.

 

[Professor Mawla]

@Professor Mawla this is so true. I find that most of my Indian hunting friends are either Sikh or Muslim, more practical views on the consumption of meat and hunting in general. However, it is interesting that there are a few (and growing) American-Indian Hindus that are getting into hunting and fishing over here. A few members of this forum appear to have Hindu names and do indeed hunt as well. Times are changing. As you know, Hindus anti-gun, anti-hunting practices are largely new phenomena even though most of them think it goes back millennia. Pre-partition India was a hunter's paradise and there were more than a few Brahman's eating the forbidden fruit!

@rookhawk
I could not agree more with your excellent assessment . There are countless Hindus who make great hunters and love firearms ownership and meat eating . They have virtually all immigrated to countries where hunting and firearms ownership is legal . The kind of Hindus who have unfortunately come to represent the India that we know today , are actually a product of Indira Gandhi’s Naxite movement in the early 1970s . The anti hunting / anti meat eating / anti firearms ownership sentiments did not spread across India overnight . The kind of people who funded the Indira Gandhi campaign have used the last five decades to completely indoctrinate India’s youth against hunting and firearms ownership and meat eating .

 

[wesheltonj]

A Cow/Calf operation alone in South Texas is not enough. You need to add hunting either by “per gun” or by the inch. Of course, if you happen to have either oil or gas wells that would make a difference.

 

[John Wasmuth]

If you are in the cattle business and are depending upon a cow/calf operation alone to earn an income you go broke in a hurry in today’s conditions. Hunting operations combined with cow/calf operations have kept many ranches from losing everything.