.416 vs .458: Just how tough are Nilgai?

[Red Leg]

I’m not a rancher. I do own a few cattle. I did grow up around a few real outfits. Many who own “ranches” don’t know what end of a cow eats. I will say I’m familiar with the way things operate to an extent and I concede that the sad awful truth of it is that much of what you all say is true. It is a very tough way to make a living in this day and age. Having said that there are many people big and small that do do things the right way and make it just fine every day and haven’t sacrificed their dignity by resorting to getting into the exotics game. It’s a sad state of affairs when this is the perceived norm or actual norm in many areas. Like in any walk of life: Don’t over extend yourself financially by trying to play with the big boys. Live and operate within your means. Don’t make reckless gambles. I suspect failure to abide by these rules more than anything else has led to the failure of many in the ranching business or any business for that matter. As far as the ones who do get into the exotics game they are generally viewed with contempt or as a joke and a bad one at that. It is lucrative but it comes at a cost.

We are obviously talking about two entirely different things and I am not sure how to make the obvious more clear to you.

Not a single person among those dialoguing on this subject said anything whatsoever about a landowner "getting into the exotics game." Not one.

From roughly Austin through the Hill Country down to the Gulf and over to the Rio Grande, large numbers of exotics roam freely in Texas. In the Hill country, the most common are Axis Deer; in coastal South Texas it is the Nilgai; in West Texas it is Aoudad and Scimitar Ibex with a smattering of common Ibex that have spread from Fort Bliss and White Sands to surrounding counties in Texas and New Mexico. In nearly all parts of that vast expanse of territory they share that habitat with whitetail, and in the west with mule deer. A rancher would have to erect a massive game fence and institute an eradication program to keep them off of his property.

But because those ranchers are actually pretty able people and understand the value of an investment, pouring thousands of dollars into tall posts and wire to observe game fenced purity of their cattle operation seems rather foolish. It is particularly nonsensical with hunters ready to lease every acre of that land to pursue those deer and the exotics that occur in that particular area. You would be hard pressed to find a landowner or leaseholder on this site that wouldn't agree that they are doing things exactly the "right way." Moreover, based upon where I have called home over the last several decades (including Oklahoma), doing things the "right way" is exactly the same thing nearly every other landowner in this country is doing to optimize the value of his wildlife.

They are not getting into any sort of game. They aren't breeding anything but their cattle. The wildlife, native and exotic behave like game animals anywhere. True, there are no protections on the exotics, but lease holders, whether individuals, outfitters, or owners are pretty effective at managing an annual take to insure continuing opportunity. Should you wish to see a similar model, you might look at coastal Maryland - specifically the Eastern Shore - where Sitka deer now flourish and are a key game animal when considering the value of a lease.

There are indeed game farms in Texas - just like those in South Africa. None of them have anything to do with cattle ranching or the abundance of free range exotics.

So, I am pretty sure no one has sacrificed their dignity and no one is laughing at anyone else.

 

[Red Leg]

@Red Leg
Diversity of assets equals an increase in profit which is the name of the game. It doesn't matter if it's cereal crops and livestock, in some cases it's timber and livestock or in this case exotic animals and livestock.
As you have pointed out if you concentrate on just one you are soon down the road with the arse out of your pants.
Even in Australia we have mixed farming to get the most income. If one has a bad year the other can help pick up the slack.
We don't hunt with one rifle, why would a farmer just have one income stream.
During the drought here some farmers were opening up their farms for city people to get the farming experience. Without they they would have gone under.
Bob

Absolutely. And that is true of virtually every actual rancher or farmer on this site.

 

[John Wasmuth]

The first introduced exotic deer into the U.S. were Fallow deer onto George Washington’s Mount Vernon Estate. History doesn’t tell us what happened to them, only that they were. I’m under the impression that some one is missing the days of Roy Rogers and Buffalo Bob. Times have changed and more and more people, ranchers, are seeing the benefit of diversity in raising exotics along with beef and whitetail to reap the harvest money wise. The Texas hill country is thriving in the wildlife division on ranches that still raise cattle but also have exotics. No one laughs or makes jokes about exotic ranchers at all. There is money in diversity when it comes to ranching.

 

[NE 7x57]

This forum is an interesting place. A discussion of what caliber to use turns into a debate on the “perceived”purity of ranching/farming operations. And the ethics of profiting from introduced game species.

Long ago I farmed and raised cattle. If you’ve never done either or both it is a much tougher way to make a living than it appears from the outside. It’s boom and bust with the emphasis on bust, all you have to do is look at decline of rural America to see this.

In NE there are good concentrations of mule deer in the Nebraska Sandhills and to the south toward Kansas and white tail mixed in along the river valleys. Not surprisingly much of the farm and ranch land is leased for hunting because it’s a little bit more income to put on the sometimes meager bottom line. Does that make these operations less than legit ranching or farming operations? Or would there have to be introduced African/Asian game animals for the farm/ranch to be less than “pure”?

If it’s the hunting of introduced species that makes the difference does that mean the hundreds of farms and ranches in the Dakotas and Montana which make a lot of money off the hunting of pheasant and Hungarian partridge are less than legitimate? If not what’s the difference?

I hope I’m not coming off as too harsh on this but I do get kind of wrapped up when someone who’s never experienced the business side of ag production opines on what is or isn’t a proper endeavor to add some income to the operation.

Back to caliber, I have no idea what it takes to bag one of these Nilgai but I’d probably use a 7x57...shocker huh?

 

[John Wasmuth]

For nostalgias sake I’d use my 9,3x62’s with 286 grain protected soft points.

 

[Ragman]

Interesting reading the difference of opinions on non-native animals. I wonder how many nonresidents that hunt moose in Newfoundland know that prior to 1904 there weren’t any on the island. Not much longer than Nilgai have been in Texas. Now they are a part of every Newfie’s DNA. Not only are they the main source of meat there but they also provide much employment in areas that year round jobs are hard to come by. All of my in-laws live there in the Corner Brook area and are moose hunters to the core. My brother-in-law and I were discussing moose hunting one evening and he told me that he was surprised that I shot them in Saskatchewan. When I told him there was moose there for thousands of years before they set foot on Newfoundland, he looked at me like I had two heads. That’s how integrated they’ve become even though they’re non-natives.
I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not at all educated on the effect of non-native exotics on native Texas wildlife and habitats, but I do know they have fascinated me for years. Besides a Caribou, the Nilgai, Aoudad and Axis deer are on the top of my wish list for North America. Hopefully some day...

 

[Inline6]

Only been directly involved in two.

One my son killed with a 300wm 180gr
The other my wife killed with a 6.5CM 140gr.

Both died where they fell.

 

[Cervus elaphus]

@Red Leg
Diversity of assets equals an increase in profit which is the name of the game. It doesn't matter if it's cereal crops and livestock, in some cases it's timber and livestock or in this case exotic animals and livestock.
As you have pointed out if you concentrate on just one you are soon down the road with the arse out of your pants.
Even in Australia we have mixed farming to get the most income. If one has a bad year the other can help pick up the slack.
We don't hunt with one rifle, why would a farmer just have one income stream.
During the drought here some farmers were opening up their farms for city people to get the farming experience. Without they they would have gone under.
Bob

A good example up here in Queensland Bob where cane farmers around Bundy and north started growing other crops when the price of sugar hit rock bottom, and as you say, starting up farm visits and B&B, I even see a lot of that out in the country down here. Cheers

 

[Cervus elaphus]

Interesting reading the difference of opinions on non-native animals. I wonder how many nonresidents that hunt moose in Newfoundland know that prior to 1904 there weren’t any on the island. Not much longer than Nilgai have been in Texas. Now they are a part of every Newfie’s DNA. Not only are they the main source of meat there but they also provide much employment in areas that year round jobs are hard to come by. All of my in-laws live there in the Corner Brook area and are moose hunters to the core. My brother-in-law and I were discussing moose hunting one evening and he told me that he was surprised that I shot them in Saskatchewan. When I told him there was moose there for thousands of years before they set foot on Newfoundland, he looked at me like I had two heads. That’s how integrated they’ve become even though they’re non-natives.
I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not at all educated on the effect of non-native exotics on native Texas wildlife and habitats, but I do know they have fascinated me for years. Besides a Caribou, the Nilgai, Aoudad and Axis deer are on the top of my wish list for North America. Hopefully some day...

In NZ, non-native animals, and fish, of all kinds are under the gun - literally - as DOC's (dept of exeCution) liberalist philosophy is to rid the country of all introduced species - except of course the real pests like opossums wallabies & rabbits - they're in the too hard basket, while trophy Tahr, trophy Wapiti, trophy deer which international hunters paid megabucks to hunt, let alone a valuable gene pool worth preserving, are gunned down and left to rot. The title "Conservation" is a contradiction in terms. Like most libtards, they don't have a clue about the financial benefits to the economy, it's all about being woke.

 

[Cervus elaphus]

I think Introductions/reintroduction is very common even in Africa, most likely Ok in the Congo, CAR, but then I remember a fenced area in Gabon & reintroduction to.
Zimbabwe has many many fenced areas & reintroduction all over, lots of Zim doesn't have suitable big game habitat it is only in certain areas .

After the Wars Mozambique was devoid of most big game & had Buffalo & lions reintroduced from South Africa, SA may still be topping up Lions ?

Most people don't know what they don't know & that's fine, just go, hunt, enjoy the hunts & animals/scenery, just do it to the ethics that suit you & you are comfortable with .

I've seen them both, fences & no fences. One particular "Safari camp" near a lake in the south island NZ had fenced paddocks with selected fallow and red deer stags hand reared and the "hunter" picked out the set he wanted in the morning from the enclosure and that poor animal was removed to another paddock of about an acre and the "hunter" went in and shot it. Having no fear of humans, the stag probably approached the "hunter" looking for a snack. Lot's of photos with perhaps some photoshopping to remove the enclosure fences and non-native vegetation. The place resembled a hollyweird set for a Clarke Gable movie and the biggest danger these "hunters" faced was falling out of bed after a night on the overpriced liquor. What we saw was far different to fenced areas of SA where at least you get a chance to whack a beast or two in the wild and they have a chance to whack back.

 

[Dwight Beagle]

Professor Mawla: I’m not positive but I don’t think there is much if any gooseberry growing wild in Texas. Your comment about not hunting Axis in Texas because you hunt them in India resonated with me for two reasons. First is my experience is exactly opposite of yours, I’ve killed countless whitetail and a few mule deer so hunting Axis is for me what hunting whitetail and mule deer is for you. Secondly, whitetail and mule deer aren’t in the same league as Axis when it comes to taste, at least for me and many other people I know.

I’ve read your posts in this thread Wishfulthinker580. What immediately comes to mind is if Texas ranchers followed your idea of legitimate, there would be very very few ranchers here. What saved many Texas ranches in the early 1900’s was oil. And as so many have already pointed out it is hard to make a go of it without additional income streams. You’ve admitted you aren’t a rancher and have never been one. IMO that makes your views of “legitimate ranching” illegitimate.

 

[Dr Ray]

I wonder if it is tougher than the Blue wildebees , here in South Africa hunters who know say Blue wildebees is born sick , every shot they receive makes them more healthy... I am pretty sure my 8x57JS Mauser will take good care of this animal, the Nilgai, I will leave my 404 Jeffery to do the heavy work , real tough animals like buffalo...

Just what are Nilgai made of??

 

[Rule 303]

Roohawk (sorry don't know how to do the @roohawk thing, Chobe in Botswana has a far larger Elephant Population than Hwange .

For those who are not keen on hunting animals not native to the area think of the Tahr in Kiwi. As far as I am aware New Zealand is the only place on earth you are allowed to hunt them.

 

[Cervus elaphus]

Roohawk (sorry don't know how to do the @roohawk thing, Chobe in Botswana has a far larger Elephant Population than Hwange .

For those who are not keen on hunting animals not native to the area think of the Tahr in Kiwi. As far as I am aware New Zealand is the only place on earth you are allowed to hunt them.

I think you can also hunt them in Alvade Texas

Himalayan Tahr Hunting | 60+ Species | 18,000 Acres in Texas | Ox Ranch

Ox Ranch is the most exciting Himalayan Tahr hunting ranch in Texas. We have over 18k acres of Himalayan Tahr Hunting, Tank Driving & Shooting, Caving etc!

www.oxhuntingranch.com

 

[John Wasmuth]

Just what are Nilgai made of??

Concrete, rebar and oak trunks. They breath fire and eat rocks. It’s impossible to kill them............

 

[Red Leg]

I think the "problem" with killing a Nilgai cleanly is exactly the same one that inexperienced antelope hunters find when they start punching holes in plains game in Africa for the first time. All of us have heard the advice about how difficult wildebeest are to kill, or the tenacity of African plains game in general when compared to North American deer or elk

As most of us here know, the real culprit is the somewhat different anatomical structure of antelope when compared to the deer with which most hunters are familiar before taking their first shot at something in the antelope family. The vital area of these animals, particularly the lungs, are farther forward and higher than the typical whitetail or elk. The classic center of mass, behind the shoulder shot that the average deer hunter has imprinted into his brain, actually narrows the vital zone on the big blue bulls considerably just as it would a wildebeest. Throw in the usual odd angle and longer range variables, and the chances of a less than perfect double lung shot go up significantly.

A perfect center lung shot on a Nilgai is through the shoulders. No they aren't bulletproof, but a typical cup and core bullet of too few grains and too much speed, that would slap down any whitetail that ever lived, can present a potential problem getting through the shoulders to take out both lungs of such a large animal even if the bullet was perfectly placed. It is why so many Texas outfitters suggest a .300 mag of some type as a starting point. A heavy for caliber bullet with excellent SD would be even better advice.

Finally, the average deer hunter after his first non-deer game animal knows none of this. He doesn't play around on this site, he has never read Bell or Taylor, and certainly he doesn't own a copy of "The Perfect Shot." He isn't into ballistics or premium bullets. As a result, and in spite of his guide begging him to shoot for the off shoulder, he instinctively tries to put that first shot exactly where he always has on a deer. Too often, the result is an animal with the rear of a single lung hit. Not having a lot of San Bushman around, all too few so wounded are ever found.

So just like African plains game, the myth of Nilgai immortality is indeed overstated. Unfortunately, it will continue to grow every year as more deer hunters with no practical experience with antelope discover this amazing animal living in their own backyard.

 

[270Guy]

They are a vermin here in my Country {India},they and Feral Pigs,took them regularly with 22 Hornet,12 Ga Loaded with 9 Pellets.Hit them on the neck while jacklighting them,they drop right there.People might say jacklighting is Unfair specially with an Antelope,but one sees the damage they cause and the numbers they are in,we dont have a choice.they are regularly taken with 30-06,270,6.5-57,sometimes with 8-57 and 7-57.Rifle ammo leaving aside the 22 LR and 315 is imported and is pretty expensive,so best and cheapest is 12 Ga Slug,or refill with 9 pellets.We hardly have any RUMs or Magnums,because off the Ban on Import off Firearms put by one off our Late Ex Prime Minister's.
The damage to crops caused by these two species in the plains and Monkeys in the Hills{i reside here now},was enough for some people like me to stop Crop farming and start Tree Farming.

 

[Rule 303]

I think you can also hunt them in Alvade Texas

Himalayan Tahr Hunting | 60+ Species | 18,000 Acres in Texas | Ox Ranch

Ox Ranch is the most exciting Himalayan Tahr hunting ranch in Texas. We have over 18k acres of Himalayan Tahr Hunting, Tank Driving & Shooting, Caving etc!

www.oxhuntingranch.com

Thanks for the info. I live and learn.
In NZ they are free range.

 

[mark-hunter]

Finally, the average deer hunter after his first non-deer game animal knows none of this. He doesn't play around on this site, he has never read Bell or Taylor, and certainly he doesn't own a copy of "The Perfect Shot." He isn't into ballistics or premium bullets. As a result, and in spite of his guide begging him to shoot for the off shoulder, he instinctively tries to put that first shot exactly where he always has on a deer. Too often, the result is an animal with the rear of a single lung hit. Not having a lot of San Bushman around, all too few so wounded are ever found.

I am "non-typical" european hunter in this description, because before going to Africa, I have read all mentioned authors, and have them in my library.
Then I followed the exact instructions of my PH, basically a copy of your description of properly placed shot on african game.

But...
But...
But...
The habbits...

I am used to "european style of shooitng", just like usual model of american deer hunter to his part, and I do tend to put my aim wrongly as per your description, behind the shoulder.

Then, knowing I am wrong, I try to follow my PH advise and put my point of aim as per instructions, african style of hunting.

So, finally, I try to place my african PG shot exactly as per your description and PH advise.
But due to my old continent habbits, I noticed on myself, some loss of time, when adjusting the aim from euro style to african style.
Loss time, noted. (I need to work out a bit on this)

Finally, whatever you were saying in the qoute above, is pracitcally exactly the same my PH was explaining to me several times in a camp, over a camp fire, and over a pint of beer.

I can honestly undersign you post! Well said.

 

[crs]

Where I was raised in the Panhandle of Texas, the perfect supplemental crops were oil and gas wells.
This is true in various parts of Texas where oil pays all the bills, including for planes and airstrips. My college buddy in the valley struck natural gas on his ranch and the ranch entrance gate went from a simple single cattle guard to a massive double gate affair with the family name arched over it. They already had a light plane air strip out on the ranch.

One 50 section ranch south of Abilene that I hunted even had a fresh killed doe hanging for us if we did not shoot our own, but we shot our own.. That ranch was a big operation with lots of staff and one truck per section and all were equipped with two way radios that utilized a radio tower installed on a small rocky mountain by my friend that also provided the radios. Naturally our hunt there was free.

Texas ranches are not all the same, but for some folks, variety is the spice of life.