Bullet suggestion for heart / lung shot on Elephant ?

[Fordy]

Gday Philip

You've shared a textbook discussion from a reloading perspective where I presented a real world experience. This is fine and it's what AH is all about. Sharing experiences.

Textbook discussions is what I thought you were up for as if we could start on that we could move to actuals although I have no real life with the “textbook discussion “ on the 470 although a mate owns one & my ph this year also does that’s all my experience is on that & I made that clear I believe as I stated “ I’ll delve into as we go “ this part is not a textbook discussion but delving into a terminal discussion on actuals taken from many many critters that have been measured of this vrs that style or brand& more importantly where killing performance starts to lesson to darn right ridiculous & poor killing ( I’ll leave numbers out as I don’t want to get into the part of that’s not possible or look @ me syndrome as I’ve had too deal with that on the only 2 other forums I’ve visited ( I’m only present on one other these days plus here on my ph’s request this year ) one forum putting it better than another but what a $hit show it was & i don’t like it & all !!!
All I want to do is find a better mousetrap & found by having some general conversations like I’ve started here & other threads as to find the part of the puzzle im not seeing yes I don’t know everything so my part is read , ask & learn like I have with this forum & I’ll put my part forward to hopefully get that discussion going & hopefully I can return the favour helping
)

yes I have plenty of those actual although not personally shot a elephant ( present yes on seeing ) I’d say I’ve got enough of the bovine & other critters real world results to make some textbook discussions & comparison of a “solid is a solid “ statement of no it’s not

Hence a proper solid vrs a barnes tsx comparison across various resistances & various impacts that a proper designed solid will out preform a Barnes tsx & that is where I relayed the “textbook “theory based off actuals I’ve seen of where the tsx dosent produce as consistent results as a proper designed solid with the exception of that I measure ( more to come on this as we go )

I have been known as a bullet companies worst nightmare ( that’s from a couple companies themselves & I’ll leave what individuals think as that’s varied as depends if it aligns with their choices/thoughts & don’t like what I show but factual they are ) but I overall kinda kept to myself for around 3 decades of pretty full on testing & only turned up on these types of forums due to nice people asking me please share your experience as repartition will show where a pill fails & take your beloved tsx I’ve already shown a system that guarantees more consistency but upto the individual if they use it as some have no need as they are in a sweetspot of where the Barnes works well but your 470 no it’s on the edge as it is shot as is & yes that’s based off theory of every other caliber barnes I’ve shot being roughly 8 different calibers off the top of my head into many 000’s of critters & make special note I hone in on the ones that showed poor results & replicate those as the good yes I like those but if you improve the poor results the overall gain is greater than already improving the good & leaving the poor & hope it doesn’t happen again

1. A solid is a solid with the exception of round nose versus flat nose. Ive spent my life killing critters and solid bullets don't do much damage whether it's a rabbit or otherwise. They just poke a hole. The point of a solid is maximum penetration.

Stay tuned on above I’ll show the other way around as done a pretty cool test when I was trying to sort out a better option for the tiny ten on which type of bullet produced smaller wounds in these little guys as to not damage the hide with big holes
& here’s where a proper designed solid gave more damage to the hides of small critters than the likes of Barnes ,hammer nosler etip ,gs custom OEP to name a few yes don’t assume I’ve learned

2. I am certain the rhino would have been dispatched quicker with the TSX in the scenario I presented.

With respect that’s just a theory as terminal results show different outcome re my “textbook discussion “

3. I didn't measure the hole on the hippo I just know the TSX killed it. In my experience not a lot of forensics are required with the TSX. They are just dead. They are kinda boring!

Once again with respect & too others also here’s where one gets slightly off the path of terminal results being somewhat shaded in that people look @ the good & then you hear oh but it’s a once off or I’ve not seen it & my old mentor ( rest his sole ) had it correct of “Keep shooting the pattern will come “ & that’s where I’m definitely different as I hone in on the less than ideal & also a extremely important part of please clarify what is “just dead” as that to me is really open to interpretation of a few things that is also better for another day as this post already has a lot too take in

4. I didn't say I was going to hunt an elephant with a TSX I just stated that it was a discussion we were not allowed to have. I've hunted elephant and I know the scenario can change on a dime.

Regards,
Philip

I don’t get that as if one knows how quickly things can go to potential pear shape in click of your fingers why shouldn’t we have the discussion as to show WHY people need to be wary @ a minimum & where the likes of inferior designs yes more than Barnes out there that I can guarantee & stood up against those as totally stupidity & ego on putting out what they do got in the way of personal thoughts & selling bullets vrs the hard factual information gathered by individuals not only myself

Yes it a discussion we should be having & continue to have
Now I’m not saying a proper true solid will always be the only way to kill a elephant the best as potentially the day May come that someone cracks the nut on a better mousetrap but a extreme amount of testing would be needed before it could become the best & that’s by not looking @ when things go to plan & the pill worked as it’s when it will fail or @ minimum give less than ideal results that the big issue arises

Thanks for your time & looking forward to a healthy discussion on a few things that I’ve not delved deep enough in as I’m sure this post is already long enough but it will come
Sorry for my writing skills also as I’m not the sharpest tool in the shed in that field


Cheers

 

[Fordy]

Gday Micheal458

I think you are in for a good lesson. Fordy has taken more game in a month than you have in your entire life...........

Guess it’s time to come somewhat clean. ( I’ll still keep actual numbers out )

Yes I’ve taken a few critters in my time & the sad think is a lot of these critters are left to rot or put in a pit but I still don’t classify myself as a guru as still so much to learn & one that I’m really looking forward to learning more on the little traits that will show a better way on elephant & that I will rely on guys like you & others that have taken them but one that I’m definitely not happy with just a dead critter or other words that some use & I’ll delve deeper to see what can be worked out & if my small parts of what I’ve learned can be applied well now we are on the way to a even better /cleaner/quicker kill & ultimately that’s what I aim for even with the best I’ve seen


Here’s a few snapshots off my phone
Ok I’m having issues posting the pictures up I attached in a time schedule that allows me a bit more sleep as I need to be up in just under 3&1/2 hrs sorry so what’s loaded is loaded sorry but I added a few screenshots of those snapshots to hopefully give a clearer picture?

Overall I think it’s when the likes of people who can step back clear their heads & go hmmm maybe something in this & that is where we can all move forward & for those that think their one critter isn’t important please please don’t think that but the measurements are needed like @deewayne2003 put up as that’s pretty factual information on deflection & one we can all learn from & back that up with Micheal’s extensive tests you see what’s occurring on penetration & wound channels & now the bar is set & more to add too that as we go & one that will start off on the most basic conversation but grow it will with facts like these & overall the bar will be raised & imo that’s why we need to keep the conversation going

Ok I’ve waited long enough on pictures to load but I’m done & will post later sorry
Cheers

 

[michael458]

Yes I’ve taken a few critters in my time & the sad think is a lot of these critters are left to rot or put in a pit

I am good friends with JD Jones. JD told me about the times they would all pack up and head to Australia for those culling shoots, donkey, buffalo, camel and what have you. They really could not take enough ammo and always ran out at some point, no matter how much they took. They were doing a lot of bullet and cartridge testing in those days. JD said they were shooting so much, that after a few days they would have to leave the area because of the smell, and start up again elsewhere. We are talking 100s on top of 100s, leading to 1000s of animals taken doing this. I know this is what you have been involved with to an extent. To a lesser extent I have made a few trips to Australia with my friend down there Paul Truccolo when he still had his hunting area and we would shoot a lot of buffalo. I was also testing the various B&M cartridges and rifles, and more so the bullets that we were developing for them. The first trip we were shooting 1st Generation copper HP CNC and Solids that JD and I had collaborated on, made by Lehigh at the time. After 40+ buffalo it was truly an eye opening experience, comparing the different commercial bullets with the new CNC bullets. Later we would be making a few more trips doing the same with the CEB Raptors and Solids, and that was another step up in performance as well. You can gain a hell of a lot of experience and learn a lot of about Terminal Performance when you are in a position to do a lot of shooting.

Most all my African trips after 2005 have also been shooting trips. Not much trophy hunting but lots of shooting doing the test work on rifles, cartridges and above all, THE BULLETS............I was lucky in those days taking left over quota for several years, always having 5-10 buffalo on quota, lots of plains game and on occasion an elephant or two. I retired from the field several years ago when I had accomplished all I set out to do. We always did the test work up front, then to the field to confirm the data. One hell of a learning experience.

 

[DLSJR]

This has been a great discussion. Lots of good information here, as well as a bit that should be reconsidered. First, there is only ONE bullet type that is suitable for elephants in this day and age and that’s a flat point solid. Period.

While cup point solids and even TSX’s may be sufficient for body shots, especially on cows and juvenile bulls, you must always be prepared to shoot a fully mature bull with a frontal brain shot; as a self-defense shot is always a possibility. Any bullet not capable of a frontal brain shot on a large fully mature bull really isn’t sufficient for elephants. And don’t ever lose sight of the fact that there is an immense difference between a cow or juvenile bull and a fully mature bull, up to a 6,000 pound difference. A bullet sufficient for a small body elephant may not be suitable for an 11,000-12,000 pound old bull.

Also, if you have to make a follow-up shot on a rapidly departing elephant, you want a bullet that’ll drive very deep and straight. Nothing does that as well as a flat point solid such as Cutting Edge, Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer, Northfork Regular solid or Swift Breakaway solid. There are other excellent ones like the Woodley and a few others but a cup point solid or ANY expanding bullet is NEVER an appropriate choice.

Every aspiring elephant hunter would be wise to remember what Roy Vincent told me on my first elephant hunt, back in 1983. Roy said “Don’t ever forget that an elephant can hurt you worse accidentally than most other animals can on purpose. And if an elephant truly wants to destroy you, your remains won’t be identifiable.”

Keep that thought in mind when considering which bullet to shoot.

 

[Riflecrank]

The Roy Vincent thought is indeed a good one to keep in mind,
when elephant hunting.

Forget the Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer "Solid" however.
It is a nonsolid, brass encapsulated lead core.
Like the steel encapsulated, lead core Hornady DGS,
it can flatten the tail, fish tail, bend like a banana.
Even the old brass encapsulated tungsten core Speer Grand Slam
is too failure-prone in same way,
and add to that the tungsten core sometimes drills through the nose and sheds the brass jacket.

Use only monometal brass or copper solids.
Truly Solid solids.

 

[DLSJR]

The Roy Vincent thought is indeed a good one to keep in mind,
when elephant hunting.

Forget the Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer "Solid" however.
It is a nonsolid, brass encapsulated lead core.
Like the steel encapsulated, lead core Hornady DGS,
it can flatten the tail, fish tail, bend like a banana.
Even the old brass encapsulated tungsten core Speer Grand Slam
is too failure-prone in same way,
and add to that the tungsten core sometimes drills through the nose and sheds the brass jacket.

Use only monometal brass or copper solids.
Truly Solid solids.

Interesting that you mention this, as I’ve heard it before. Alan Vincent, Roy’s son, is a PH of 34 years experience and whom I do most of my hunting with. He loves Trophy Bonded Sledgehammers for elephant hunting. Like the rest of us, he considers the Monometal, flat nose solids to be excellent, but told me just a few weeks ago that one of his very favorite solids is the TB Sledgehammer. He shot several elephants in March-April for local communities on PAC and community use, and recounted how fantastic the performance was with the Sledgehammers. He’s had a difficult time finding Sledgehammers, so as soon as I returned from Zimbabwe I checked Federal’s website and bought him some .458/500 grain Sledgehammers to load.

Like many things in life, opinions about solids vary. Alan’s is based on pretty extensive personal experience.

 

[Fordy]

Gday
I think this part is extremely important of DLSJR ‘s

This has been a great discussion. Lots of good information here, as well as a bit that should be reconsidered. First, there is only ONE bullet type that is suitable for elephants in this day and age and that’s a flat point solid. Period.

While cup point solids and even TSX’s may be sufficient for body shots, especially on cows and juvenile bulls, you must always be prepared to shoot a fully mature bull with a frontal brain shot; as a self-defense shot is always a possibility. Any bullet not capable of a frontal brain shot on a large fully mature bull really isn’t sufficient for elephants. And don’t ever lose sight of the fact that there is an immense difference between a cow or juvenile bull and a fully mature bull, up to a 6,000 pound difference. A bullet sufficient for a small body elephant may not be suitable for an 11,000-12,000 pound old bull.

Also, if you have to make a follow-up shot on a rapidly departing elephant, you want a bullet that’ll drive very deep and straight. Nothing does that as well as a flat point solid such as Cutting Edge, Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer, Northfork Regular solid or Swift Breakaway solid. There are other excellent ones like the Woodley and a few others but a cup point solid or ANY expanding bullet is NEVER an appropriate choice.

Trying to find out a little bit more out on this so apologies in advance for a touch derail then I’ll get back on track I promise

What difference is there between the bone structure & depth of that bone on a big bull to younger bull
Now on bovine bulls the skulls get thicker & more dense & the leg bones also are definitely harder to break ( it’s why a big caliber & proper designed pill reign supreme for consistency & minimum are minimum for a reason ) on the bulls where as the bovine cows they somewhat get a touch thicker in skull & it’s interesting on bones as the older cows get thinner bones
This is mainly from lactation but I’m just curious to see if this is also relevant to elephant??

Back to subject & On this of riflecrank ‘s

Use only monometal brass or copper solids.
Truly Solid solids.

Two parts in my mind to add too this & maybe just this muppet ( me ) making sure it’s very clear as i don’t think enough understand this in some bullet companies bullets advertised is vastly different than reality

The additional two parts imo

A/ A good nose profile ( yep everyone has that covered I believe well most as some just go off a companies advertisement as in all reality how many have taken elephant & why this forum is extremely important too sort out fact from fiction )

B/ a good alloy that can withstand the pressures on impact on these critters as nose profile alone won’t help some alloys especially copper as some are just too soft & even the terrible hornady DGS shows better results


Paying close attention to those extra 2 will show the flaws in that choice & better off seeing it before it’s put in a elephants head & not relying on the ph to fix it

Maybe more parts & welcome them

Cheers

 

[Riflecrank]

Interesting that you mention this, as I’ve heard it before. Alan Vincent, Roy’s son, is a PH of 34 years experience and whom I do most of my hunting with. He loves Trophy Bonded Sledgehammers for elephant hunting. Like the rest of us, he considers the Monometal, flat nose solids to be excellent, but told me just a few weeks ago that one of his very favorite solids is the TB Sledgehammer. He shot several elephants in March-April for local communities on PAC and community use, and recounted how fantastic the performance was with the Sledgehammers. He’s had a difficult time finding Sledgehammers, so as soon as I returned from Zimbabwe I checked Federal’s website and bought him some .458/500 grain Sledgehammers to load.

Like many things in life, opinions about solids vary. Alan’s is based on pretty extensive personal experience.

I met Roy and his son Alan in Tanzania in 2010.
Roy was a client hunter to his son Alan at the time.
IIRC Roy was using a rifle of his own making, a 450 Vincent on a Mauser, a .458/404J like the 460 G&A
(both the Vincent versions and G&A wildcats came as shorts for 3.4" mag box or longs for 3.6" mag box).
IIRC, both Alan and another PH named Paul were toting Heym double rifles in either 470 NE or 500 NE.
I cannot remember which had which.

So Alan has moved on to a .458, maybe a 450 Vincent Short or Long ?
The family namesake cartridge is a nice thought.
I hope Roy Vincent and Mrs. Vincent are doing as well as when I last saw them.

Please let us know what rifle(s) Alan is using to propel those .458-caliber bullets.

I was in love with the 500-gr/.458 TBSS for a while. It is a perfect length (1.400") and multi-cannelured for either 3.275" or 3.575" COL loadings in a SAAMI-chambered .458 WIN MAG,
and with the short COL it does +2200 fps MV from a 24" barrel.
At long COL it does +2400 fps from my factory Ruger No. 1 of SAAMI .458 WIN MAG chambering.
Better than a SAAMI .458 Lott, for either lower pressure, higher velocity or both.

That TBSS meplat is a little small, but wow is it a slick feeding shape, a great selling "point,"
a flat point though it is, pun intended. A better meplat would make it a better penetrator and less likely to veer and bend.
Brass encapsulated lead will bend easier than a truly solid solid of hard copper alloy or brass.
Yes, too many reports from trusted sources (like Michael458 and Buddy Sam) came back about the TBSS bending like a banana in buffalo, and getting recovered on broadside buffalo shots. Not good.

Alan has been lucky with the 500-gr/.458 TBSS, eh ?
Even such a well respected PH is only one man, a lucky man.
His is hardly the final word on the TBSS.

 

[Riflecrank]

Fordy,
Yes, yes, yes.
Hard copper alloy: I wish Hammer Bullets would make a solid of their trace-sulfur-containing copper.
CEB brass is perfect for a solid solid.
North Fork copper solid solids must be doing something right.
All of them should use the nose shape from Bastardfile Bullet Works, Version #13, developed at McCourry Institute of Ballistics (MIB), aka Michael458 and Sam.
Sam owns the bastardfiles.

 

[DLSJR]

Gday
I think this part is extremely important of DLSJR ‘s

Trying to find out a little bit more out on this so apologies in advance for a touch derail then I’ll get back on track I promise

What difference is there between the bone structure & depth of that bone on a big bull to younger bull
Now on bovine bulls the skulls get thicker & more dense & the leg bones also are definitely harder to break ( it’s why a big caliber & proper designed pill reign supreme for consistency & minimum are minimum for a reason ) on the bulls where as the bovine cows they somewhat get a touch thicker in skull & it’s interesting on bones as the older cows get thinner bones
This is mainly from lactation but I’m just curious to see if this is also relevant to elephant??

Back to subject & On this of riflecrank ‘s

Two parts in my mind to add too this & maybe just this muppet ( me ) making sure it’s very clear as i don’t think enough understand this in some bullet companies bullets advertised is vastly different than reality

The additional two parts imo

A/ A good nose profile ( yep everyone has that covered I believe well most as some just go off a companies advertisement as in all reality how many have taken elephant & why this forum is extremely important too sort out fact from fiction )

B/ a good alloy that can withstand the pressures on impact on these critters as nose profile alone won’t help some alloys especially copper as some are just too soft & even the terrible hornady DGS shows better results


Paying close attention to those extra 2 will show the flaws in that choice & better off seeing it before it’s put in a elephants head & not relying on the ph to fix it

Maybe more parts & welcome them

Cheers

Fordy, the point I was making is simply that a fully mature elephant bull is one hell of a lot bigger, stronger and more formidable than a juvenile bull or cow. As in roughly twice as big. His skull is proportionally bigger as well, so the bone is much thicker, denser and more difficult to reach the brain. As a point of information, I’ve only shot two elephants, both were big mature bulls from the KAZA region in far NW Zimbabwe, one on Deka and one on Matetsi 3. Roy Vincent took numerous measurements on my first bull and it measured almost 13’ tall at the shoulder and over 21’ long, he thought the bull was probably well over 12,000 pounds. That is dramatically bigger than a young bull or cow, approximately double the size. That is what you need enough gun, and bullet, to deal with. You may be hunting a cow or younger bull, but if an old fellow in musth decides to cause trouble, he is what you must be capable of dealing with.

 

[DLSJR]

I met Roy and his son Alan in Tanzania in 2010.
Roy was a client hunter to his son Alan at the time.
IIRC Roy was using a rifle of his own making, a 450 Vincent on a Mauser, a .458/404J like the 460 G&A
(both the Vincent versions and G&A wildcats came as shorts for 3.4" mag box or longs for 3.6" mag box).
IIRC, both Alan and another PH named Paul were toting Heym double rifles in either 470 NE or 500 NE.
I cannot remember which had which.

So Alan has moved on to a .458, maybe a 450 Vincent Short or Long ?
The family namesake cartridge is a nice thought.
I hope Roy Vincent and Mrs. Vincent are doing as well as when I last saw them.

Please let us know what rifle(s) Alan is using to propel those .458-caliber bullets.

I was in love with the 500-gr/.458 TBSS for a while. It is a perfect length (1.400") and multi-cannelured for either 3.275" or 3.575" COL loadings in a SAAMI-chambered .458 WIN MAG,
and with the short COL it does +2200 fps MV from a 24" barrel.
At long COL it does +2400 fps from my factory Ruger No. 1 of SAAMI .458 WIN MAG chambering.
Better than a SAAMI .458 Lott, for either lower pressure, higher velocity or both.

That TBSS meplat is a little small, but wow is it a slick feeding shape, a great selling "point,"
a flat point though it is, pun intended. A better meplat would make it a better penetrator and less likely to veer and bend.
Brass encapsulated lead will bend easier than a truly solid solid of hard copper alloy or brass.
Yes, too many reports from trusted sources (like Michael458 and Buddy Sam) came back about the TBSS bending like a banana in buffalo, and getting recovered on broadside buffalo shots. Not good.

Alan has been lucky with the 500-gr/.458 TBSS, eh ?
Even such a well respected PH is only one man, a lucky man.
His is hardly the final word on the TBSS.

Riflecrank, If you met them when Roy was hunting as Alan’s client, it was likely for their annual October hunt with Saeed. Those three enjoy a fantastic time together every year. They’ve all had a great 43 year run together, but it’s getting closer to the end as Roy is now 78 and seriously ill. I visited with him 2 months ago when we were all in Dubai with Saeed. Roy told me that he really hopes to go to the Selous at least this year, even if just to sit in camp and listen to the birds. Rene had major hip replacement and pelvic reconstruction done in Dubai about 18 months ago and she’s doing a lot better, but she’s 80 so slowing down somewhat. Saeed is 75 and in very good health, as is Alan; but nothing lasts forever. I think they’ll be fortunate if they get about 4-5 more years together.

Roy has developed several interesting chamberings, and when I hunted with Alan in May, he was carrying his .450 Vincent Short, which I think is a very neat cartridge. IIRC, Alan said he gets close to 2,600 fps with 500 grain bullets. The two times I hunted with him in Tanzania, he’s been carrying a .450 Ackley. He doesn’t really care for his Heym double, which is a .500 NE, as it has a nasty habit of doubling on him. He shot 3 elephant bulls this spring and the 1st one was with his Heym .500 . It doubled on him (killed the elephant very dead) so he shot the other 2 with his .450 Vincent Short. He actually prefers a bolt rifle over a double anyway and only carries the double sometimes when elephant hunting.

When it comes to solid bullets, I think we’re very fortunate to have the choices we do today. The two bulls I’ve shot were with a 500 grain Hornady solid in .458 Winchester and a 500 grain Woodleigh solid in 470 NE. Both bullets killed the bulls, but neither looked great. The Hornady riveted/bulged toward the front of the bullet and the Woodleigh flattened toward the back and the bullet bent. But both were dug out of dead bulls. I’ve recently shot 400 grain Cutting Edge Safari Solids in my 416; but they don’t feed real well, so I’ve been considering trying their 350 grain solid to see if it feeds better, or just loading some of the 400 grain Trophy Bonded solids I have on hand. No matter what I end up doing, it’s a nice problem to have compared to the old days when we had few choices and all were inferior to today’s offerings.

 

[TOBY458]

On a recent bull elephant hunt, I found out exactly why only solids are used on elephant. When we approached my bull, he turned to face us. Only the frontal brain shot was offered. No way would I have wanted to take that shot with anything other than the best solid possible. I was using a 458 Win Mag with CEB flat nosed solids. Even though I slightly missed the brain, the bullet still penetrated the skull and ended up in his neck. No way a TSX or any other limited penetration bullet would’ve done that. Also, once he got back to his feet and turned to run, I shot him twice from the backside as he was leaving. Would you want an expanding bullet for that??? I think not.

 

[BJH65]

This old thread has become very appropriate for me now since I’m booked to go on an elephant and buffalo hunt in October of this year.

I’ll be using my custom Brno 458 Lott 22.5 inch barrel using factory round nose Barnes Banded Solid 500 grain for elephant and Barnes 500 Grain TSX for buffalo. Both shoot very accurately and identical point of impact.

After reading this, am I being reckless now for choosing to use the round nose 500 grain Barnes banded solid for elephant instead of a flat point solid?

 

[DLSJR]

This old thread has become very appropriate for me now since I’m booked to go on an elephant and buffalo hunt in October of this year.

I’ll be using my custom Brno 458 Lott 22.5 inch barrel using factory round nose Barnes Banded Solid 500 grain for elephant and Barnes 500 Grain TSX for buffalo. Both shoot very accurately and identical point of impact.

After reading this, am I being reckless now for choosing to use the round nose 500 grain Barnes banded solid for elephant instead of a flat point solid?

I can’t imagine why you’d shoot a round nose solid over a flat nose. The wide meplat flat nosed solids have been proven to out penetrate round nose solids, as well as track straighter. They’re a superior bullet. You’ve got plenty of time to test several different bullets to find a better one.

 

[Riflecrank]

DLSJR,
Yes, I passed a Halloween in Tanzania, 2010.
Glad to hear Roy and Rene are still kicking.

BJH65,
Since Barnes went back to RN,
and the GSC FN became unobtainium,
your best choices are from CEB (brass) or North Fork (copper) for solid solid bullets.
CEB ships from Idaho instead of Sweden.
Roll the dice if you use a Round Nose, even if it is monometal brass solid.
Roll the dice if you use a bi-metal, non-solid solid, even if it has a Flat Nose.

 

[Fordy]

Gday riflecrank long time no talk

Fordy,
Yes, yes, yes.
Hard copper alloy:

Yep spot on

I wish Hammer Bullets would make a solid of their trace-sulfur-containing copper.

Like these

& that’s why hammer still has a lot to learn as they still think a solid is not needed due to when their shedding pills work well they work very well but it’s not consistent / reliable across multiple resistances & why the alloy in the big bore pills needs to be careful on what they are used on even buff show issues so here’s a thought for you to ponder & take note of the wordings that goes against the wisdom of the knowledgeable ones on this thread

Please note people I’m not one of the knowledgeable ones on elephant , bovine are my bread & butter even more so with smaller critters & when you see this out of that pill

plus lost buffalo you see a picture that’s not pretty & just incase people may think a one off is ok here’s another .510 cal size that gave 14 to 29 inches of penertration recovered out of bovine’s,

I wonder how that would go in a big elephant’s head hmmmm

The only way the alloy in hammer could be used in a true solid is the expanding solid imo variety like the north fork cup point expanding solid BUT you better not hit big bones especially @ speed as just like in the pictures above the hammer alloy just can’t handle it which results in a level of poor terminal performance ( that level also varies from person to person of acceptance or knowledge & not having a go @ you just talking on the whole ) & more suited on the small critter variety like this porker

& some 5seconds later this outcome occurred

Yep worked pretty well on him but here’s where the good shedding monos rise above this & to the top on these types of critters over the base of a mushroom pill like in the first picture is all those solids ended up like ( that I put up in the first picture ) but don’t hit brush with them as then we go back to the true solid of a good nose profile again showing it’s superiority , once again a true solid shows the way

& leads exactly into this of yours below

CEB brass is perfect for a solid solid.
North Fork copper solid solids must be doing something right.
All of them should use the nose shape from Bastardfile Bullet Works, Version #13, developed at McCourry Institute of Ballistics (MIB), aka Michael458 and Sam.
Sam owns the bastardfiles.

Lastly on the thought of a Barnes tsx or the shedding hammer suitable for elephant look @ these 2 375 cal pills

both knuckle shots from bovine although the hammer did out penetrate the Barnes I guess it’s open to the part I eluded too previously of one’s level they will accept & that is a great discussion for another time

Cheers from Yosemite Sam lol ( private joke people between riflecrank & I & nothing but fun in it as he can be a funny bugger @ times as well as a wealth of knowledge )

 

[BJH65]

I can’t imagine why you’d shoot a round nose solid over a flat nose. The wide meplat flat nosed solids have been proven to out penetrate round nose solids, as well as track straighter. They’re a superior bullet. You’ve got plenty of time to test several different bullets to find a better one.

Knowing that the 500 grain Barnes Banded RN solid reliably feeds in my rifle and hits to the exact point of aim as Barnes 500 grain TSX which I’ll be using for buffalo and they do work was the primary reason and I’ll not have enough time to send my rifle to a good gunsmith to insure it reliably feeds some of the flat point solids you recommend although they could feed fine, haven’t tried them.

However, I’m not discounting yours, michael458’s, Riflecrank’s and Fordy’s experience and knowledge which far exceeds mine. Most likely this will be my only elephant hunt so it’s important that the bullet does its job and as a novice elephant hunter, the most likely scenario for me will be a heart/lung shot.

Federal Premium Safari 458 Lott 500 grain Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Bonded Flat Nose Solid, 500 grain Woodley Hydro Solids, and 500 Grain Swift Break Away Solids are available in factory loaded ammo but not recommended by all.

So this leaves two bullets: CEB or North Fork Flat Nose Solids which are offered by a couple custom reloading companies.

Pendleton Ammo and Hendershot’s offer- 500 grain Cutting Edge Flat Nose Solid or 500 grain North Fork Cup Point Solids custom loaded 458 Lott.

Which bullet between the two has the better chance of feeding reliably?

 

[michael458]

Which bullet between the two has the better chance of feeding reliably?

What will feed reliably easily will be the worst for terminal performance ............Which you already mentioned, the RN. Flat Nose Solids with Less than 65% meplat of caliber will feed better, but only slightly better than the RN in terminal performance if any. Less than 65% meplat is not stable during terminal penetration. Best of all is to have a rifle that feeds/functions correctly with the proper designed bullets. Fortunately, that is available, its called a Winchester Control Feed M70. Currently I have 37 Winchester M70s from 416-500 caliber and every single one of them feed/function 100% with the CEB and North Fork Solids at 67% and 68% meplat. Several straight up factory guns in 458 Winchester and 458 Lott......... The question should be "Which Rifle will feed Reliably", and "Which bullet will give the best Terminal Performance". Not to be ugly about it.

Pendleton Ammo and Hendershot’s offer- 500 grain Cutting Edge Flat Nose Solid

You really do not need 500 gr CEB. 450s are well proven. I am sure they would load those as well. Regardless of that, I am sure they would load and sell you a sample pack, possibly even a dummy round pack so that you could check those in your rifle, dummy rds would be great.

 

[michael458]

Forget the Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer "Solid" however.
It is a nonsolid, brass encapsulated lead core.
Like the steel encapsulated, lead core Hornady DGS,
it can flatten the tail, fish tail, bend like a banana.
Even the old brass encapsulated tungsten core Speer Grand Slam
is too failure-prone in same way,
and add to that the tungsten core sometimes drills through the nose and sheds the brass jacket.

Sam used them in the old days long before the current CEB #13s......... He complained they turned into bananas. I have never used one. I think we tested some at one point.

Recently, last year, one of the guys right here used one on buffalo in 458 Winchester, he sent this photo to me; I think this is the same bullet, factory load......... I am honestly not well versed on factory ammo, never used any.

In 2013 another friend sent this bullet to me, Hornady DGS from 458 Lott...........

One of the very few, 450 #13s I recovered from a hippo point of the right shoulder, traversed to the rear left. Fact is I don't really remember ever recovering another one..........

This bullet was sent to me from a late friend of mine;

I recovered this from a buffalo, I believe in 2005.........

These were recovered from a hippo I went to war with. Even brass solids can take a beating sometimes........

This one from a buffalo I went to war with as well............. damn what a battle too...... He was one hell of a warrior.

 

[Riflecrank]

Holy cow ! Fordy is showing .510-caliber Hammer hollow points that pinched off the nose hole !!!
What bullet weight and approximate impact velocity ?

And another set of .510-cal Hammer hollow points that fragmented and performed poorly !!!
What bullet weight and approximate impact velocity ?

And a .375-cal Hammer hollowpoint that blew of the petals and then expanded the remnant "penetrator" at a slant !!!
What bullet weight and approximate impact velocity ?

So bovine shoulder knuckles or humeri were involved in all of these ?

OK, Hammer's sulfurated copper is not so hard after all, I see.
Softer than brass and barely greater density.
Machines nicely though.
The petal blow-off must be more a function of hollowpoint design,
and I thought it was some brass-like similarity in fracturing.
Not so.
If Hammer got the news on those bullets, maybe some re-design was done.

GSC FN copper solids (570-gr/.510-cal) expand pretty severely on 50-gallon steel drums full of sand at 500 NE velocity, but have shot through elephants routinely.
I used it to penetrate a big bull bison from rump to exit at neck/throat, full body length, once while alive at 50 yards, and departing with a 570-gr Barnes XLC retained in the vitals from a broadside chest shot.
Both shots were at 2400 fps MV from a 500 A-Square.
I repeated the Barnes XLC and the GSC FN shots on the dead bison at 25 yards due to surprise at lack of penetration of the XLC (forerunner of the TSX) and exit of the GSC FN.
Same shot placement on the propped up dead bison.
Same results on bullet recovery of the XLC and exit of the GSC FN.

Apparently no bovine shoulder knuckles were encountered.

I will forget the idea of a Hammer Copper solid.
Nothing but CEB brass FN solids for me in velocities that might impact at 2400 fps or more.
I will have to give up the North Fork copper FP solid, too, but the copper Cup Point solid is still a choice, for buffalo, not elephant.

There is a town in Kentucky called "Yosemite" but the locals pronounce it "YO-SUH-MIGHT."