416 vs 458 Indecision

[intj]

I am a point in my life where I know than many different solutions work, so I don't have those arguments with other people anymore. It is pointless, as people will believe what they want to believe. However, I do have those arguments with myself...............CONSTANTLY.

I have been a fan of and owned rifles in 416 Rem for 25 years. My current one is a New Haven M-70 rifle that I used to cleanly take my first African animal--a buffalo bull--a little more than a month ago. I have posted about that elsewhere.

So I have known for a long time that the supposed high pressure and extraction issues really aren't a thing. Yes, the first generation ammo was loaded hot (like 2500 fps), most likely with temp sensitive powders common to that time, and the Rem 700s c-clip extractor wasn't up to the task. However, better powders and better rifles made that a non-issue. Besides, I haven't used factory ammo in decades for anything important.

Now what IS a thing is the M-70s 3.62" magazine box. Like most cartridges they came up with pre 21st century, the magazine boxes are too short to truly optimize the cartridge, especially with the longer mono and heavy for caliber bullets we like to use nowadays.

With that in mind, I decided to build an optimum rifle for my next Africa hunt. And by that I mean that I myself am building the rifle. I will cut the chamber, bed the action, ensure feeding, and do the load development.

So my initial plan was to take my M-70 416 Rem, mill the action for a 3.825" Wyatt's box, rebarrel it, get a Sunny Hill drop floor plate, and have Mark Bansner inlet me a stock (I HATE inletting stocks). I rejected that at first because even though I have milled receivers and fit extended Wyatt's boxes before--and got the rifles to feed to a DG level of reliability, it can be a pain to do so.

Then I got to thinking about maybe making a 458 or 416 RUM, and to that end I bought a M-70 300 RUM barreled action from another forum member. A big advantage would be getting to use high quality ADG 375 RUM brass vs Norma or other low-end brass. Even though the bullet would protrude well into the case, the RUM case has plenty of room to get target velocities so I wouldn't have to lengthen the magazine box. (Milling an M-70 RUM action and installing an extended Wyatt's box doesn't work well like it does with a non-RUM M-70 magnum action.) However, when the barreled action arrived it was in such good shape--it looked new--that I changed my mind. I put in in a new stock, added the the floorplate and other parts, and decided to keep it a 300 RUM with too short of a magazine.

Then I got to thinking about a CZ 550 Magnum action. I had donated a CZ 550 in 458 Lott to the PH during my recent trip. I bought that rifle for a very cheap price. I had a 375 H&H as well as a 416 Lott barrel--both aftermarket. I installed the Lott barrel, got a B&C stock and bedded the action. Then I sent it to Wayne to make it feed, install a 3-position safety, and install his non-set trigger.

The barrel on this rifle was 26", and I really didn't like how beefy the stock was (vs the McMillan Supergrade on the 416 Rem) and didn't like how it was noticeably heavier than the 416. I just didn't handle it as well as the M-70.

In the dozen years I had the Lott I never shot it. As I was getting close to the hunt I asked the PH what barrel length he wanted. He said 22", so I put it in my lathe and shortened and re-crowned it. Then I test fired it and decided that I kinda liked it; weight, balance, and everything.

So a couple weeks ago I saw on this forum that Wayne had CZ 550 Magnum actions for $1000. I called him, bought one with the magnum boltface, and had him install his 3-position safety and trigger. I also ordered a B&C stock, mainly to use as a pattern for the stock maker.

My shop uses this stock maker to make a wooden version of our Rokstok. The Rokstok is a unique design. The fore end and bottom of the butt stock are flat and parallel, and with the addition of a pronounced negative comb, this stock tracks like a benchrest stock when shoot from prone. It is probably the best designed prone stock out there. A consequence of all that is the grip is rather thin. Not an issue for a carbon fiber stock, but could be in wood for the guys that want us to build 375s.

So we decided that we would experiment with my CZ, making a wooden stock and laminating in some carbon fiber. He will also slim it down a bit for me. If it will hold up the recoil of a 416 Rem or 458 Lott with no cross bolts or barrel lug, we have a winner and we can try it on the Rokstok.

So I decided that I had to make my choice today: 416 Rem or 458 Lott. Customers are waiting and the first step is to get my rifle finished.

We all know the 416s out-penetrate most everything else, and most shots on elephant are brain shots where penetration is the most important factor. We also know the 458 Lott penetrates well enough and is better on body shots. I have gone round and round and still haven't made up my mind.

So I ordered a 12 twist 416 barrel and a 10 twist 458 barrel. I really wanted a 12 twist 458 barrel, but since I had called Pac Nor (they had a two-month lead time posted on their website), they do button barrels, and didn't have 458 12 twist button. When he told me the lead time had stretched out I kinda wished I had ordered a cut-rifled barrel from another vendor with a similar lead time. Then again, last summer a buddy called in a favor and I chambered a Pac Nor barrel for him that dialed-in on the lathe as good as any cut-rifled barrel and that rifle is stupid accurate.

I will chamber the 458 Lott for the CZ. Then I will decide if I will also chamber the 416 barrel for the CZ or go with my original plan with the M-70. Right now, I am leaning toward keeping the CZ as a Lott and then upgrading the M-70.

Of course, I am still undecided, which is the whole point of this needlessly long post..........................................

 

[Tokoloshe Safaris]

I am a point in my life where I know than many different solutions work, so I don't have those arguments with other people anymore. It is pointless, as people will believe what they want to believe. However, I do have those arguments with myself...............CONSTANTLY.

I have been a fan of and owned rifles in 416 Rem for 25 years. My current one is a New Haven M-70 rifle that I used to cleanly take my first African animal--a buffalo bull--a little more than a month ago. I have posted about that elsewhere.

So I have known for a long time that the supposed high pressure and extraction issues really aren't a thing. Yes, the first generation ammo was loaded hot (like 2500 fps), most likely with temp sensitive powders common to that time, and the Rem 700s c-clip extractor wasn't up to the task. However, better powders and better rifles made that a non-issue. Besides, I haven't used factory ammo in decades for anything important.

Now what IS a thing is the M-70s 3.62" magazine box. Like most cartridges they came up with pre 21st century, the magazine boxes are too short to truly optimize the cartridge, especially with the longer mono and heavy for caliber bullets we like to use nowadays.

With that in mind, I decided to build an optimum rifle for my next Africa hunt. And by that I mean that I myself am building the rifle. I will cut the chamber, bed the action, ensure feeding, and do the load development.

So my initial plan was to take my M-70 416 Rem, mill the action for a 3.825" Wyatt's box, rebarrel it, get a Sunny Hill drop floor plate, and have Mark Bansner inlet me a stock (I HATE inletting stocks). I rejected that at first because even though I have milled receivers and fit extended Wyatt's boxes before--and got the rifles to feed to a DG level of reliability, it can be a pain to do so.

Then I got to thinking about maybe making a 458 or 416 RUM, and to that end I bought a M-70 300 RUM barreled action from another forum member. A big advantage would be getting to use high quality ADG 375 RUM brass vs Norma or other low-end brass. Even though the bullet would protrude well into the case, the RUM case has plenty of room to get target velocities so I wouldn't have to lengthen the magazine box. (Milling an M-70 RUM action and installing an extended Wyatt's box doesn't work well like it does with a non-RUM M-70 magnum action.) However, when the barreled action arrived it was in such good shape--it looked new--that I changed my mind. I put in in a new stock, added the the floorplate and other parts, and decided to keep it a 300 RUM with too short of a magazine.

Then I got to thinking about a CZ 550 Magnum action. I had donated a CZ 550 in 458 Lott to the PH during my recent trip. I bought that rifle for a very cheap price. I had a 375 H&H as well as a 416 Lott barrel--both aftermarket. I installed the Lott barrel, got a B&C stock and bedded the action. Then I sent it to Wayne to make it feed, install a 3-position safety, and install his non-set trigger.

The barrel on this rifle was 26", and I really didn't like how beefy the stock was (vs the McMillan Supergrade on the 416 Rem) and didn't like how it was noticeably heavier than the 416. I just didn't handle it as well as the M-70.

In the dozen years I had the Lott I never shot it. As I was getting close to the hunt I asked the PH what barrel length he wanted. He said 22", so I put it in my lathe and shortened and re-crowned it. Then I test fired it and decided that I kinda liked it; weight, balance, and everything.

So a couple weeks ago I saw on this forum that Wayne had CZ 550 Magnum actions for $1000. I called him, bought one with the magnum boltface, and had him install his 3-position safety and trigger. I also ordered a B&C stock, mainly to use as a pattern for the stock maker.

My shop uses this stock maker to make a wooden version of our Rokstok. The Rokstok is a unique design. The fore end and bottom of the butt stock are flat and parallel, and with the addition of a pronounced negative comb, this stock tracks like a benchrest stock when shoot from prone. It is probably the best designed prone stock out there. A consequence of all that is the grip is rather thin. Not an issue for a carbon fiber stock, but could be in wood for the guys that want us to build 375s.

So we decided that we would experiment with my CZ, making a wooden stock and laminating in some carbon fiber. He will also slim it down a bit for me. If it will hold up the recoil of a 416 Rem or 458 Lott with no cross bolts or barrel lug, we have a winner and we can try it on the Rokstok.

So I decided that I had to make my choice today: 416 Rem or 458 Lott. Customers are waiting and the first step is to get my rifle finished.

We all know the 416s out-penetrate most everything else, and most shots on elephant are brain shots where penetration is the most important factor. We also know the 458 Lott penetrates well enough and is better on body shots. I have gone round and round and still haven't made up my mind.

So I ordered a 12 twist 416 barrel and a 10 twist 458 barrel. I really wanted a 12 twist 458 barrel, but since I had called Pac Nor (they had a two-month lead time posted on their website), they do button barrels, and didn't have 458 12 twist button. When he told me the lead time had stretched out I kinda wished I had ordered a cut-rifled barrel from another vendor with a similar lead time. Then again, last summer a buddy called in a favor and I chambered a Pac Nor barrel for him that dialed-in on the lathe as good as any cut-rifled barrel and that rifle is stupid accurate.

I will chamber the 458 Lott for the CZ. Then I will decide if I will also chamber the 416 barrel for the CZ or go with my original plan with the M-70. Right now, I am leaning toward keeping the CZ as a Lott and then upgrading the M-70.

Of course, I am still undecided, which is the whole point of this needlessly long post..........................................

So am I? But I enjoyed reading it though.
What ever you do stick with the.416 Rigby it just works just fine stick with factory spec ammo + maybe 100 to 150.


Also please someone tests some 300 grn. Softs and maybe solids.

 

[Altitude sickness]

What about a .458 B&M with a 20” barrel ?

 

[NIGHTHAWK]

I thought I was an overthinker… You already know what you want or will likely do. I wanted a large bore bolt gun. I struggled between .458 Lott and .450 Rigby. Being left handed, my options were somewhat limited. Custom would mean wait time and be expensive. At the direction of one of our members I located a beautiful Lefty .450 Dakota in excellent condition with plenty of ammo and barely used. All boxes checked. Another member had more ammo, brass, and dies. Now I just need a scope.

Is bigger, better? Flip a coin or go with your gut!

 

[Beefeater]

A big advantage would be getting to use high quality ADG 375 RUM brass vs Norma or other low-end brass.

Surprised you see Norma brass as low end. I am under the impression that it is some of the better brass about. Would you care to elaborate ?

 

[Mountaineer]

One item to consider with Africa is the ammo and the rifle’s caliber need to match. Wildcats can create controversy with some inspectors and you never want issues.

 

[BigGame]

You'll most likely never shoot at something over 100yards, if you are dangerous game hunting. If you think you'll will use it on eland or kudu choose a 416. I would focus on which recoil is the best I can tolerate and the weight and handling of the rifle. I had a Jarrett Professional Hunter one built on a pre-64 winchester action in .416 rem mag. That thing was so accurate, light handling, and fit me perfectly. One of my regrets in life was selling it to a Pharmaceutical executive in Chicago.

 

[Luvthunt]

Do both and then you will have time to decide which one to use.

 

[Flipper Dude]

Paralysis by analysis is what we call that. You know either will do the job. I’d go with the Lott if for no other reason than ammo available in Africa. I know 4 or 5 PH that shoot Lotts or 458WM. None that shoot 416 Remington

 

[Ruraldoc]

I know two PHs with Model 70s in 416 Remington.

I have a Model 70 in 416 remington and a Brno 602 in 458 Lott.

The Brno is heavier and still kicks harder.

The M70 in 416 seems to be the perfect client rifle. At least it is for me. Less recoil, flatter trajectory incredible penetration with the best solids. With well placed shots it crushes buffalo and will penetrate an elephant skull from any reasonable angle.

For a Dangerous game PH, I see the benefit of the 458 Lott in stopping a charge.

Personally I would prefer a 500 nitro in that situation anyway.

The 416 is more of an all around dangerous game and plains game cartridge.

The 458 Lott is more of a stopper at spitting distance.

Niether one is a bad choice. Pondoro Taylor, Harry Selby, and Joe Coogan all used the 416 Rigby as a bolt action of choice when hunting or guiding for dangerous game. The Model 70 in 416 is just the modern equivalent.

The most popular choice among PHs today for a stopping rifle in a bolt action is a 458 winchester or lott..

But for me as a client, give me the lighter recoil and flatter trajectory of the 416.

Therefore the only sane answer appears to be building and using both.

 

[rookhawk]

I am a point in my life where I know than many different solutions work, so I don't have those arguments with other people anymore. It is pointless, as people will believe what they want to believe. However, I do have those arguments with myself...............CONSTANTLY.

I have been a fan of and owned rifles in 416 Rem for 25 years. My current one is a New Haven M-70 rifle that I used to cleanly take my first African animal--a buffalo bull--a little more than a month ago. I have posted about that elsewhere.

So I have known for a long time that the supposed high pressure and extraction issues really aren't a thing. Yes, the first generation ammo was loaded hot (like 2500 fps), most likely with temp sensitive powders common to that time, and the Rem 700s c-clip extractor wasn't up to the task. However, better powders and better rifles made that a non-issue. Besides, I haven't used factory ammo in decades for anything important.

Now what IS a thing is the M-70s 3.62" magazine box. Like most cartridges they came up with pre 21st century, the magazine boxes are too short to truly optimize the cartridge, especially with the longer mono and heavy for caliber bullets we like to use nowadays.

With that in mind, I decided to build an optimum rifle for my next Africa hunt. And by that I mean that I myself am building the rifle. I will cut the chamber, bed the action, ensure feeding, and do the load development.

So my initial plan was to take my M-70 416 Rem, mill the action for a 3.825" Wyatt's box, rebarrel it, get a Sunny Hill drop floor plate, and have Mark Bansner inlet me a stock (I HATE inletting stocks). I rejected that at first because even though I have milled receivers and fit extended Wyatt's boxes before--and got the rifles to feed to a DG level of reliability, it can be a pain to do so.

Then I got to thinking about maybe making a 458 or 416 RUM, and to that end I bought a M-70 300 RUM barreled action from another forum member. A big advantage would be getting to use high quality ADG 375 RUM brass vs Norma or other low-end brass. Even though the bullet would protrude well into the case, the RUM case has plenty of room to get target velocities so I wouldn't have to lengthen the magazine box. (Milling an M-70 RUM action and installing an extended Wyatt's box doesn't work well like it does with a non-RUM M-70 magnum action.) However, when the barreled action arrived it was in such good shape--it looked new--that I changed my mind. I put in in a new stock, added the the floorplate and other parts, and decided to keep it a 300 RUM with too short of a magazine.

Then I got to thinking about a CZ 550 Magnum action. I had donated a CZ 550 in 458 Lott to the PH during my recent trip. I bought that rifle for a very cheap price. I had a 375 H&H as well as a 416 Lott barrel--both aftermarket. I installed the Lott barrel, got a B&C stock and bedded the action. Then I sent it to Wayne to make it feed, install a 3-position safety, and install his non-set trigger.

The barrel on this rifle was 26", and I really didn't like how beefy the stock was (vs the McMillan Supergrade on the 416 Rem) and didn't like how it was noticeably heavier than the 416. I just didn't handle it as well as the M-70.

In the dozen years I had the Lott I never shot it. As I was getting close to the hunt I asked the PH what barrel length he wanted. He said 22", so I put it in my lathe and shortened and re-crowned it. Then I test fired it and decided that I kinda liked it; weight, balance, and everything.

So a couple weeks ago I saw on this forum that Wayne had CZ 550 Magnum actions for $1000. I called him, bought one with the magnum boltface, and had him install his 3-position safety and trigger. I also ordered a B&C stock, mainly to use as a pattern for the stock maker.

My shop uses this stock maker to make a wooden version of our Rokstok. The Rokstok is a unique design. The fore end and bottom of the butt stock are flat and parallel, and with the addition of a pronounced negative comb, this stock tracks like a benchrest stock when shoot from prone. It is probably the best designed prone stock out there. A consequence of all that is the grip is rather thin. Not an issue for a carbon fiber stock, but could be in wood for the guys that want us to build 375s.

So we decided that we would experiment with my CZ, making a wooden stock and laminating in some carbon fiber. He will also slim it down a bit for me. If it will hold up the recoil of a 416 Rem or 458 Lott with no cross bolts or barrel lug, we have a winner and we can try it on the Rokstok.

So I decided that I had to make my choice today: 416 Rem or 458 Lott. Customers are waiting and the first step is to get my rifle finished.

We all know the 416s out-penetrate most everything else, and most shots on elephant are brain shots where penetration is the most important factor. We also know the 458 Lott penetrates well enough and is better on body shots. I have gone round and round and still haven't made up my mind.

So I ordered a 12 twist 416 barrel and a 10 twist 458 barrel. I really wanted a 12 twist 458 barrel, but since I had called Pac Nor (they had a two-month lead time posted on their website), they do button barrels, and didn't have 458 12 twist button. When he told me the lead time had stretched out I kinda wished I had ordered a cut-rifled barrel from another vendor with a similar lead time. Then again, last summer a buddy called in a favor and I chambered a Pac Nor barrel for him that dialed-in on the lathe as good as any cut-rifled barrel and that rifle is stupid accurate.

I will chamber the 458 Lott for the CZ. Then I will decide if I will also chamber the 416 barrel for the CZ or go with my original plan with the M-70. Right now, I am leaning toward keeping the CZ as a Lott and then upgrading the M-70.

Of course, I am still undecided, which is the whole point of this needlessly long post..........................................

Listen to @Tokoloshe Safaris . Overthinking is an understatement.

The 416 Rigby when loaded to original specs (not new crazy specs) has storied success and they feed well as a caliber. The 458 Lott is also great and backwards compatible with completely adequate modern 458 Winmag loads.

I don't know what any of the ruger this, remington that gets you when you already have correct magnum length CZ actions. With the Rigby and the Lott, you might even find loaner ammo if yours goes missing on safari.

 

[intj]

Surprised you see Norma brass as low end. I am under the impression that it is some of the better brass about. Would you care to elaborate ?

From what I have seen, Lapua and ADG are at the top with Peterson a very close second. There are also a couple of boutique brass makers that make good brass.

I compete in 1K BR. Many of us like the 300 WSM in the heavy gun class. However, we had finally had enough of the issues with Norma brass, mainly hardness, consistency, and life. However, neither Lapua or ADG made 300 WSM brass as recently as a couple of years ago.

So we took ADG 7 SAUM brass, necked it up to 30 cal, then fire formed it to have a 40 degree shoulder. Doing all of that is a pain, but we wanted top quality brass. I usually do very well with my heavy gun. I had no sooner got 300 cases prepped, with reamer and dies bought; when ADG started making 300 WSM brass. This brass will last 20+ firings in a BR rifle, and we often run them a bit on the warm side. When the brass is finally toast--probably take a couple more barrels, I will go back to the 300 WSM.

I have a Bison Armory volumizer. It measures the internal volume of cases using air pressure. Long story short, I found the ADG to be just a tiny bit more consistent with internal volume than Lapua. I use Lapua for my 6 BRA and the 6.5x47 Light Gun I am building, and ADG for my heavy gun whether it's a 300 SAUM IMP or a 300 WSM. I have never tested Norma, but I became disgusted with it in my 300 WSM when I couldn't get it to shoot as well as some old Remington brass I had.

Now realize that LRBR is the most demanding long range discipline in terms of having to have everything perfect, from wind reading to gun handling to brass consistency. When I comes to a DG rifle, I am happy to use Norma or Hornady brass. However, if ADG or Lapua ever came out with 416 Rem or Lott brass, I would dump Norma and Hornady like a hot potato. In the meantime, I am happy that Norma and Hornady still even make brass for DG cartridges. Like LRBR, DG hunting is a niche among niches......

 

[intj]

One item to consider with Africa is the ammo and the rifle’s caliber need to match. Wildcats can create controversy with some inspectors and you never want issues.

There are ways to restamp brass if needed. I can tell you that on my recent trip to South Africa, they didn't really seem to concerned about headstamp vs cartridge engraving on the barrel.

 

[intj]

You'll most likely never shoot at something over 100yards, if you are dangerous game hunting. If you think you'll will use it on eland or kudu choose a 416. I would focus on which recoil is the best I can tolerate and the weight and handling of the rifle. I had a Jarrett Professional Hunter one built on a pre-64 winchester action in .416 rem mag. That thing was so accurate, light handling, and fit me perfectly. One of my regrets in life was selling it to a Pharmaceutical executive in Chicago.

That's part of my indecision. I shoot them all well and can make anything to fit me perfectly.....

 

[CZDiesel]

A 500gr 458rd will penetrate more than a 400gr 416rd will… Both are great!

 

[intj]

Paralysis by analysis is what we call that. You know either will do the job. I’d go with the Lott if for no other reason than ammo available in Africa. I know 4 or 5 PH that shoot Lotts or 458WM. None that shoot 416 Remington

There is no paralysis here since I am taking action. I am simply building an extra rifle for no good reason other than I can.

Interestingly, at least in SA, there was every kind of ammo you could want in the local small town gunshop. They even had 7 PRC ammo which is a fairly new cartridge. I suppose it might be different in other countries.

That said, I can easily see having a rebarreled M-70 in 416 Rem as well as a 458 Lott in the case on my next trip, which I am not sure helps my indecision. And I haven't discussed my 470 DR, which keeps going lower on my list....

 

[intj]

Listen to @Tokoloshe Safaris . Overthinking is an understatement.

The 416 Rigby when loaded to original specs (not new crazy specs) has storied success and they feed well as a caliber. The 458 Lott is also great and backwards compatible with completely adequate modern 458 Winmag loads.

I don't know what any of the ruger this, remington that gets you when you already have correct magnum length CZ actions. With the Rigby and the Lott, you might even find loaner ammo if yours goes missing on safari.

It is actually impossible for an INTJ to overthink anything. The reason is that this kind of analysis and evaluation is always going on in an INTJ's mind and we find it fun to do. It does not however stop us from taking action.

I know, I am weird that way........

 

[Flipper Dude]

There is no paralysis here since I am taking action. I am simply building an extra rifle for no good reason other than I can.

Interestingly, at least in SA, there was every kind of ammo you could want in the local small town gunshop. They even had 7 PRC ammo which is a fairly new cartridge. I suppose it might be different in other countries.

That said, I can easily see having a rebarreled M-70 in 416 Rem as well as a 458 Lott in the case on my next trip, which I am not sure helps my indecision. And I haven't discussed my 470 DR, which keeps going lower on my list....

I don’t know what INTJ means. I DO KNOW that I would have made that decision in a lot less time than it took you to write that 1st post.

I’m crazy like that, I suppose.

 

[intj]

A 500gr 458rd will penetrate more than a 400gr 416rd will… Both are great!

This is probably the key issue for me. I had always assumed that a 458/500 would out penetrate a 416/400, but recent research has lead me to question that. Pierre van der Walt talks about this and how the penetration of the 416/400 beats all the others. I have come across this about the 416s penetration elsewhere.

Then when I saw the reaction of the buffalo to my 400 SAF I really began questioning my assumptions that the Lott would be the better elephant rifle.

My PH wants me to use the 416, probably because he and his other guides watched me place every first shot where they told me with it. But like many others here I can do the same thing with any rifle I bring--or I won't bring it.

However, a PH will almost always recommend a smaller rifle for the client. His backup rifle is an M-70 in 458 Lott, and his 500 grainer at 2250 has less
sharp recoil than my 400 grainer at 2430. We will see how I like 500 grainers at 2300.....

To use a cliche, we all know that at the "end of the day" it doesn't matter what I choose as all the options work. It's just fun to think and talk about them. If we didn't, we wouldn't have much of a forum...