416 vs 458 Indecision

[John Telford]

don’t have any left! I pulled them all after only getting 2100 on the chronograph! I wasn’t comfortable letting my assistant PH shoot with this as we were hunting elephant.
Believe me it was a great shock to discover clumped powder. I then took it up with Pierre van der Walt who smiled wryly and says it’s the reason he developed the .450 African in the 90’s. You need to really press the juice into a Lott case to send a 500gr solid. Remember a mono metal solid takes more space. It’s also the reason I promptly bought a .450 Rigby….

Really? OK, can you show us this clumped up loads in 458 Lott! As they would be the first ever shown in the history of the

 

[intj]

Sounds like you have made up your mind regardless what any input is given which is fine, so just get that 416!

Exactly, we’ve all seen the videos and read the stories were a 500NE and a 416 pump 8 rounds into a Buff charge and he still gores a PH or Client!

The only decisions I had made already are that I am going to optimize my M-70 in 416 Rem and that I am going to build a 458 Lott on my CZ 550 Magnum action.

My indecision is which is really a better elephant rifle. Conventional wisdom says the Lott, but actual evidence may show otherwise.

 

[intj]

I know it’s an example of one, but a good friend killed his bull elephant with a frontal brain shot with his 416 Remington using a 400 grain solid.

This was on video, and it looked like the ground was jerked underneath the bull.

Then I shot a large buffalo bull in the chest with a single 400 grain A frame, he ran a few yards and fell over stone dead. No finisher necessary. Then a buddy did the same thing on 2 bulls with his 416 Remington using 400 grain Bearclaws.

Meanwhile we killed an assortment of plains game out to 300 yards with the same rifles.

Our PH friend in Zimbabwe seeing these kind of results with Model 70s in 416 bought one, and said it kills as well his 470.

He ordered a 500 nitro Heym because he thinks you have to go to a 500 to get better performance on game than a 416. He said he only did this because he does a lot of elephant hunts.

Clearly today, there are more PHs armed with 458s, but there are some who still rely on 416s with total confidence.

My one buffalo kill makes me think the same thing. I'll see if I can't find a way to post the video of the bullet impact. The 400 SAF hit him hard and he hunched up and bucked like a hard hit deer or elk. The only reason I put more rounds into him is because I could. They were not needed.

 

[intj]

Part of the fun of prepping for Safari is fitting out the rifles for the trip. Build and shoot both and take the one you shoot the best. You already know that either will do the job. When I first began, I wanted a 416 Rigby. I ended up finding a nice FN Browning Safari Grade in 375HH that matched my 308 and made a great pair. Later, I bought a 458WM but have had to wait until ATF approves its import into the USA. Still waiting. This year, I found a lovely custom ER Shaw Pattern 14 Enfield. It is beautiful and shoots better than my FN and will be my go-to on the next trip. This is part of the fun. I will spend weeks/months testing, fitting scopes and re-testing. Trying loads at various distances to verify my dope for longer shots (mostly with the smaller guns), etc. It is a blast.

That is the exact reason I made this thread. A big part of the trip is planning, discussion, building the rifle, working up the load, and honing shooting skills.

 

[Inline6]

I feel your pain, I shoot a lot of match. Not BR, that said I try to make every round as close to perfect as possible.

I have wanted a DR for a while, I just can bring myself to buy a rifle I will not be happy with accuracy wise.

I shoot my buff with a 416REM, I put 9 rds in him. I decided after that I wanted to check out a 458Lott. I'm running a NF450gr @ 2350. Have been very happy with the performance.

I'm not sure you can go wrong with either. If you use a soft chances are you are going tonfind the bullets on the offside. I'm sure their hole will be just a little bigger. Other than that, you put the bullet where it should go, said animal will go down.

 

[Creigh]

There is no paralysis here since I am taking action. I am simply building an extra rifle for no good reason other than I can.

Interestingly, at least in SA, there was every kind of ammo you could want in the local small town gunshop. They even had 7 PRC ammo which is a fairly new cartridge. I suppose it might be different in other countries.

That said, I can easily see having a rebarreled M-70 in 416 Rem as well as a 458 Lott in the case on my next trip, which I am not sure helps my indecision. And I haven't discussed my 470 DR, which keeps going lower on my list....

If analysis causes paralysis then you're doing analysis wrong.

 

[deewayne2003]

Dalton uses a 458 WM as well. A push feed Mdl 70. ( Oh, the horror!)

True.... And one of his go to client guns is a Ruger RSM .416 Rigby

 

[intj]

If analysis causes paralysis then you're doing analysis wrong.

Thinking through something isn't paralysis. Ever. Period. It's what smart people do to make optimum decisions.

Guys that have this so called "paralysis" don't do the things that I have done/do like fly jets, race cars, shoot competition, etc.

Two rifle projects are now in the works. They were in the works before I started this thread.

 

[Flipper Dude]

Sorry if I offended. “Paralysis by analysis “ was sorta tongue in cheek. I went back and reread your initial post to see where I was off base.

I’ll stand by my original perception. But then I’m not having constant arguments with myself. Guess I’m just a dumbass making suboptimal decisions. Hell, I been called worse.

 

[Creigh]

Thinking through something isn't paralysis. Ever. Period. It's what smart people do to make optimum decisions.

Guys that have this so called "paralysis" don't do the things that I have done/do like fly jets, race cars, shoot competition, etc.

Two rifle projects are now in the works. They were in the works before I started this thread.

Ha! The email notification I got from your message was a little bit more snarky before you edited it.
I did get what you meant and I was actually agreeing with you. I was trying to say that because you are making progress, it meant that you are doing proper analysis.
No worries, all good.

 

[intj]

Ha! The email notification I got from your message was a little bit more snarky before you edited it.
I did get what you meant and I was actually agreeing with you. I was trying to say that because you are making progress, it meant that you are doing proper analysis.
No worries, all good.

Yeah the initial response came across snarky, which isn't what I wanted.

No worries here either. I do agree, if we can't make a decision when we need to, we aren't doing it right.

With many that is a thing. It's not with me, but I love the internal discussion and debate with myself......

 

[Ruraldoc]

I know that I tend to over analyze at times,but in my job it's pretty important to know what you're going to do before you start doing it.

All of this analysis led me to buy rifles in 9.3x62,375 H&H,416 Rem,458 Lott and 470 nitro.

I sold the 470 Nitro double because I didn't think I'd ever shoot it enough to be as fast or familar with it as the scoped bolt actions with which I have a life time of experience and muscle memory.

The big double was more comfortable to shoot than my Brno 602 in 458 Lott,but it was so unfamilar to me and I was afraid that would matter in a real charge situation.

The 9.3x62 and 375 are great multipurpose rifles but I wanted something bigger in the event of an actual charge.

So this led to the Brno 458 Lott with 5 rounds versus the Model 70 416 Remington with 4 rounds.
The Model 70 is lighter,has less felt recoil and since I have hunted with Model 70s for thirty years,I can operate it more quickly and accurately.

If I were the PH, I would probably learn to handle the 458 Lott,or shoot 458 Win Mag ammo in it.

But the analysis of the facts for me leads to a 416 Remington in a custom tuned New Haven Model 70 Classic.

Your analysis and mileage may vary. If you have spent years hunting with side by side shotguns with twin triggers you may be fine with a double rifle.

If a 375 is the upper limit for your recoil tolerance,then you would be foolish to hunt with a rifle that you find unmanageable. Along the same lines, a solid hit with a 9.3 beats a poor shot with anything bigger.

This thread is interesting to me because the 416 vs 458 comparison is where so many of us wind up in terms of practical,affordable rifles for dangerous african game.

 

[intj]

I know that I tend to over analyze at times,but in my job it's pretty important to know what you're going to do before you start doing it.

All of this analysis led me to buy rifles in 9.3x62,375 H&H,416 Rem,458 Lott and 470 nitro.

I sold the 470 Nitro double because I didn't think I'd ever shoot it enough to be as fast or familar with it as the scoped bolt actions with which I have a life time of experience and muscle memory.

The big double was more comfortable to shoot than my Brno 602 in 458 Lott,but it was so unfamilar to me and I was afraid that would matter in a real charge situation.

The 9.3x62 and 375 are great multipurpose rifles but I wanted something bigger in the event of an actual charge.

So this led to the Brno 458 Lott with 5 rounds versus the Model 70 416 Remington with 4 rounds.
The Model 70 is lighter,has less felt recoil and since I have hunted with Model 70s for thirty years,I can operate it more quickly and accurately.

If I were the PH, I would probably learn to handle the 458 Lott,or shoot 458 Win Mag ammo in it.

But the analysis of the facts for me leads to a 416 Remington in a custom tuned New Haven Model 70 Classic.

Your analysis and mileage may vary. If you have spent years hunting with side by side shotguns with twin triggers you may be fine with a double rifle.

If a 375 is the upper limit for your recoil tolerance,then you would be foolish to hunt with a rifle that you find unmanageable. Along the same lines, a solid hit with a 9.3 beats a poor shot with anything bigger.

This thread is interesting to me because the 416 vs 458 comparison is where so many of us wind up in terms of practical,affordable rifles for dangerous african game.

I don't think that what you are describing is over-analyzing. I personally have never made a bad decision by thinking through something, but I have a whole list of bad decisions I made by "going with my gut" without thinking it through.