416 vs 458 Indecision

[BJH65]

This is probably the key issue for me. I had always assumed that a 458/500 would out penetrate a 416/400, but recent research has lead me to question that. Pierre van der Walt talks about this and how the penetration of the 416/400 beats all the others. I have come across this about the 416s penetration elsewhere.

Then when I saw the reaction of the buffalo to my 400 SAF I really began questioning my assumptions that the Lott would be the better elephant rifle.

My PH wants me to use the 416, probably because he and his other guides watched me place every first shot where they told me with it. But like many others here I can do the same thing with any rifle I bring--or I won't bring it.

However, a PH will almost always recommend a smaller rifle for the client. His backup rifle is an M-70 in 458 Lott, and his 500 grainer at 2250 has less
sharp recoil than my 400 grainer at 2430. We will see how I like 500 grainers at 2300.....

To use a cliche, we all know that at the "end of the day" it doesn't matter what I choose as all the options work. It's just fun to think and talk about them. If we didn't, we wouldn't have much of a forum...

I see this as no dilemma at all, you simply require two rifles, one in 458 Lott and one in 416 Rem Mag, although personally I would favor the 416 Rigby for nostalgia. In fact, as I type this, looks like I’ll be adding a 458 Lott to the stable which would accompany my 416 Rigby as my two large bore African rifles.

 

[375Fox]

You’ve given this more thought than I’ve ever given a rifle or cartridge, but I have to ask why you want a Rokstok? I looked it up and your description is for shooting prone? I’ve hunted a lot in Africa and aside from eastern cape and croc the opportunity for a prone shot is very limited. Curious why you want that stock especially for that class cartridge.

 

[RR 314]

.450 Rigby. Problem solved. Well, I actually just complicated the equation.

 

[CZDiesel]

This is probably the key issue for me. I had always assumed that a 458/500 would out penetrate a 416/400, but recent research has lead me to question that. Pierre van der Walt talks about this and how the penetration of the 416/400 beats all the others. I have come across this about the 416s penetration elsewhere.

Then when I saw the reaction of the buffalo to my 400 SAF I really began questioning my assumptions that the Lott would be the better elephant rifle.

My PH wants me to use the 416, probably because he and his other guides watched me place every first shot where they told me with it. But like many others here I can do the same thing with any rifle I bring--or I won't bring it.

However, a PH will almost always recommend a smaller rifle for the client. His backup rifle is an M-70 in 458 Lott, and his 500 grainer at 2250 has less
sharp recoil than my 400 grainer at 2430. We will see how I like 500 grainers at 2300.....

To use a cliche, we all know that at the "end of the day" it doesn't matter what I choose as all the options work. It's just fun to think and talk about them. If we didn't, we wouldn't have much of a forum...

I love them both but they are different. I just went to the range a week ago with @CoElkHunter and his CZ 416 Rigby and my 458WinMag. Now his CZ is heavier than my Winchester by 2lbs but 458 definitely smacks you harder with a 500gr vs the Rigbys 400gr round. The Winchester has a shorter barrel too
We Doppler’d both rifles and the 458 threw a 500gr at 2170fps for 5200ftlbs the Rigby a 400gr at 2400fps for 5100ftlbs so they have equal energy but the 458 has more weight, a larger meplat, and higher sectional density. Theoretically that gives the 458 both a higher TKO and more penetration…

“You’re talking about the choice between two rather different, yet similar in some respects, calibers and rifles designed for different uses.
Now there’s no question the 416 Rigby is a bit more versatile, and will work rather well, but it’s NOT designed as a STOPPING RIFLE.
The 458 Win was designed to duplicate the ballistics and hitting power of a British dangerous game rifles in the 450-470 caliber range, these mostly throw a 480 grain-to-520 grain bullet at between 2100fps and 2400fps, and by design mostly use or at least are intended to use solids that penetrate an elephants skull at any angle or bust both shoulders on a cape buffalo, the 458 Win is designed as a STOPPING rifle for use in stopping a charge at under 60 yards.
The 416 Rigby, like the 375 H&H, is fully capable of killing anything in Africa but it’s not designed specifically as a stopping rifle.
There’s a difference between being able to kill with a single shot (which the 375 H&H and 416 Rigby do well) and stopping a charge of a truly pissed off dangerous animal at pistol shot ranges for which the added caliber (diameter & impact area) and bullet weight of the 458 calibers 500-510 grain slug have over time proven to have a sight advantage.”
AFRICAN RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES by JOHN TAYLOR

Both are awesome! Love them both so there is no wrong way to go. But the 458 is going to smack game harder. If you did go with the 458 I’d personally choose the 458Win over the 458 Lott unless I were a PH, that’s just me though…

 

[AimSmall]

Consecutive serial numbers are cool.

 

[Ruraldoc]

Of course John Taylor was something of perverse individual and much of what he said needs to be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism.

Harry Selby on the other hand was a straight shooter.

And he used a 416 for years as his only dangerous game rifle. He only switched to a 458 at the end of his career when Rigby ammo became rare and expensive.

But he never complained about the effectiveness of his 416.

When 416 Rigby ammo became available again, Selby’s younger associate Joe Coogan bought and carried a 416 as his primary dangerous game rifle.

 

[CZDiesel]

Of course John Taylor was something of perverse individual and much of what he said needs to be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism.

Harry Selby on the other hand was a straight shooter.

And he used a 416 for years as his only dangerous game rifle. He only switched to a 458 at the end of his career when Rigby ammo became rare and expensive.

But he never complained about the effectiveness of his 416.

When 416 Rigby ammo became available again, Selby’s younger associate Joe Coogan bought and carried a 416 as his primary dangerous game rifle.

As I said I love them both but when it comes to knockdown power and penetration the 458 has math on its side…
York, of the very popular Dalton and York, uses a 458 WinMag as his Backup/Stopping rifle in an age where most DG ammunition is available, even if in short supply. My PH told me to bring my 458WinMag not my 375 H&H or my brothers 416 Rem for my upcoming Elephant and Buff hunt. He said that without hesitation?
I’m no expert that’s for sure but I’ve seen, read, and been told the 458 and up are just in a different class?
I know I’ll be carrying a 458WinMag but would feel good with a 416 too!

 

[intj]

You’ve given this more thought than I’ve ever given a rifle or cartridge, but I have to ask why you want a Rokstok? I looked it up and your description is for shooting prone? I’ve hunted a lot in Africa and aside from eastern cape and croc the opportunity for a prone shot is very limited. Curious why you want that stock especially for that class cartridge.

I don't know why those two customers want a wooden Rokstok for a 375 and a 9.3x62. All I know is I have to make sure the stock can handle the recoil, and to do that I will start proving the concept by having the B&C CZ stock duplicated, slimed down, and laminated with carbon fiber. It's a win win for me.

 

[Flipper Dude]

Dalton uses a 458 WM as well. A push feed Mdl 70. ( Oh, the horror!)

 

[375Fox]

I don't know why those two customers want a wooden Rokstok for a 375 and a 9.3x62. All I know is I have to make sure the stock can handle the recoil, and to do that I will start proving the concept by having the B&C CZ stock duplicated, slimed down, and laminated with carbon fiber. It's a win win for me.

I misread. I thought it was for your rifle.

 

[intj]

As I said I love them both but when it comes to knockdown power and penetration the 458 has math on its side…
York, of the very popular Dalton and York, uses a 458 WinMag as his Backup/Stopping rifle in an age where most DG ammunition is available, even if in short supply. My PH told me to bring my 458WinMag not my 375 H&H or my brothers 416 Rem for my upcoming Elephant and Buff hunt. He said that without hesitation?
I’m no expert that’s for sure but I’ve seen, read, and been told the 458 and up are just in a different class?
I know I’ll be carrying a 458WinMag but would feel good with a 416 too!

I would agree that the 458 Lott probably hits harder, but my research indicates that it doesn't penetrate as well as the 416.

Again, this is new information to me. I had always assumed that a 458/500 at 2300 fps was about optimum penetration. It wasn't until I read Pierre van der Walt and chatted with my PH that I came across the idea that the 416/400 was the penetration king.

I don't know how they calculate penetration index, but intuitively it makes sense. The smaller diameter bullet has less resistance to overcome when passing through flesh. The 416/400 at 2400 fps seems to be a sweet spot where all the factors work in favor of penetration.

While the 458/500 does have a higher SD than a 416/400, the 458/500s SD doesn't seem to overcome its larger frontal area. Now we know that a 458/500, and even the 458/450, has enough penetration to reach an elephant's brain. In fact so does the 470 NE, which is even lower on the penetration index. So the ultimate in theoretical penetration may be a moot point.

My PHs logic is simple. The most demanding shot in terms of bullet performance in an elephant is a frontal brain shot, which is a very likely shot, and for that having the best penetrating bullet makes sense. Add to that he's already seen me shoot the 416 very well on a buffalo, and it makes sense why he would push me that way.

Anyway, that is why I ordered two barrels instead of just one. I REALLY want someone to provide definitive modern data that the 458 Lott is superior for elephant. If anyone has such data it would be Michael458, but I have pestered him so much on this topic already via PM that I don't want to call him here.

I will build the CZ as a long throated Lott and see what I get. Maybe I'll do my own penetration tests. Better yet, I'll bring my 416, the Lott, and my 470 and make the two PHs carry whichever one I don't have in my hands at the moment.......

 

[ActionBob]

You’ve given this more thought than I’ve ever given a rifle or cartridge, but I have to ask why you want a Rokstok? I looked it up and your description is for shooting prone? I’ve hunted a lot in Africa and aside from eastern cape and croc the opportunity for a prone shot is very limited. Curious why you want that stock especially for that class cartridge.

Prone in the East Cape!

After 10 safaris, taking the Big including several buffalo and two lions, plus binging in on finishing pissed off leopard as well as buffalo. And being surrounded by elephant. Having a black momba inches from my face.... The most serious injuries I've endured in Africa were from sitting on a cactus for pictures of Springbok

There's good reasons for shooting off sticks in Africa

 

[colorado]

For me I don't see the point of moving up from a 416 Rigby to a 458 Lott. The Rigby will kill anything you want. If you want more power step up to a 500 Jeffery, 505 Gibbs or 500 A2.

 

[ActionBob]

I recall a hunt report where a body shot was taken on an elephant with a 458 Lott. By the time the shooting stopped I believe it had some 3000 grains of projectiles in it. And it ran some 13 miles and all night.

The next morning it was dropped at 12 yards with a frontal brain shot.

Upon butchering the beast, it was found the first shot had put a groove in the heart but had not cut it open.

A resident (of this site) commented that the hunter should have converted his 458 Lott to a 470 Capstick! And that if he had, the extra but diameter would have surely split the heart open and the elephant woukd have died within a few yards.

Ok, so the extra 8 thousandths of an inch diameter "may" have split that heart open. Provided the center of that bullet hit the same spot. I would contend that is a near impossible feat. A different barrel, slight different recoil. Maye a twing of flinch, hell variation between shots!

Sometimes we get carried away with our mathematical computations and go well beyond reason

So, therefore you should immediately scrap your plans and investments to date and immediately order a 470 Capstick barrel!

 

[John Telford]

If you are thinking about a .416 how’s bout a Taylor?
For own use on DG I’d recommend the 450 Rigby.
The PH’s use the Lott because it is the cheapest big bore to come by and run.
My experience has been that you need to compress loads to get top end and I have pulled factory ammo that has clumped up!

 

[CZDiesel]

If you are thinking about a .416 how’s bout a Taylor?
For own use on DG I’d recommend the 450 Rigby.
The PH’s use the Lott because it is the cheapest big bore to come by and run.
My experience has been that you need to compress loads to get top end and I have pulled factory ammo that has clumped up!

Really? OK, can you show us this clumped up loads in 458 Lott! As they would be the first ever shown in the history of the cartridge!

 

[CZDiesel]

I would agree that the 458 Lott probably hits harder, but my research indicates that it doesn't penetrate as well as the 416.

Again, this is new information to me. I had always assumed that a 458/500 at 2300 fps was about optimum penetration. It wasn't until I read Pierre van der Walt and chatted with my PH that I came across the idea that the 416/400 was the penetration king.

I don't know how they calculate penetration index, but intuitively it makes sense. The smaller diameter bullet has less resistance to overcome when passing through flesh. The 416/400 at 2400 fps seems to be a sweet spot where all the factors work in favor of penetration.

While the 458/500 does have a higher SD than a 416/400, the 458/500s SD doesn't seem to overcome its larger frontal area. Now we know that a 458/500, and even the 458/450, has enough penetration to reach an elephant's brain. In fact so does the 470 NE, which is even lower on the penetration index. So the ultimate in theoretical penetration may be a moot point.

My PHs logic is simple. The most demanding shot in terms of bullet performance in an elephant is a frontal brain shot, which is a very likely shot, and for that having the best penetrating bullet makes sense. Add to that he's already seen me shoot the 416 very well on a buffalo, and it makes sense why he would push me that way.

Anyway, that is why I ordered two barrels instead of just one. I REALLY want someone to provide definitive modern data that the 458 Lott is superior for elephant. If anyone has such data it would be Michael458, but I have pestered him so much on this topic already via PM that I don't want to call him here.

I will build the CZ as a long throated Lott and see what I get. Maybe I'll do my own penetration tests. Better yet, I'll bring my 416, the Lott, and my 470 and make the two PHs carry whichever one I don't have in my hands at the moment.......

Sounds like you have made up your mind regardless what any input is given which is fine, so just get that 416!

I recall a hunt report where a body shot was taken on an elephant with a 458 Lott. By the time the shooting stopped I believe it had some 3000 grains of projectiles in it. And it ran some 13 miles and all night.

The next morning it was dropped at 12 yards with a frontal brain shot.

Upon butchering the beast, it was found the first shot had put a groove in the heart but had not cut it open.

A resident (of this site) commented that the hunter should have converted his 458 Lott to a 470 Capstick! And that if he had, the extra but diameter would have surely split the heart open and the elephant woukd have died within a few yards.

Ok, so the extra 8 thousandths of an inch diameter "may" have split that heart open. Provided the center of that bullet hit the same spot. I would contend that is a near impossible feat. A different barrel, slight different recoil. Maye a twing of flinch, hell variation between shots!

Sometimes we get carried away with our mathematical computations and go well beyond reason

So, therefore you should immediately scrap your plans and investments to date and immediately order a 470 Capstick barrel!

Exactly, we’ve all seen the videos and read the stories were a 500NE and a 416 pump 8 rounds into a Buff charge and he still gores a PH or Client!

 

[Ruraldoc]

I know it’s an example of one, but a good friend killed his bull elephant with a frontal brain shot with his 416 Remington using a 400 grain solid.

This was on video, and it looked like the ground was jerked underneath the bull.

Then I shot a large buffalo bull in the chest with a single 400 grain A frame, he ran a few yards and fell over stone dead. No finisher necessary. Then a buddy did the same thing on 2 bulls with his 416 Remington using 400 grain Bearclaws.

Meanwhile we killed an assortment of plains game out to 300 yards with the same rifles.

Our PH friend in Zimbabwe seeing these kind of results with Model 70s in 416 bought one, and said it kills as well his 470.

He ordered a 500 nitro Heym because he thinks you have to go to a 500 to get better performance on game than a 416. He said he only did this because he does a lot of elephant hunts.

Clearly today, there are more PHs armed with 458s, but there are some who still rely on 416s with total confidence.

 

[Topshots]

I've owned a CZ .416 and fired a few .458's. My CZ had good bedding and just needed a trigger re-build. I also had the bolt handle straightened and bent out a bit more for easier cycling.

For me they are two different animals. The .458 has less perceived recoil for me.

To come close to the .416 Rigby you really need to step up to a hot loaded 458 Lott.

Before you buy, try to put five or ten rounds through each.

Penetrate anything = .416 Rigby.
Easy on the shoulder and wallet = .458WM.

Oh, and everyone has a a .458, that's why they are cheap to run.

 

[JG26Irish_2]

Part of the fun of prepping for Safari is fitting out the rifles for the trip. Build and shoot both and take the one you shoot the best. You already know that either will do the job. When I first began, I wanted a 416 Rigby. I ended up finding a nice FN Browning Safari Grade in 375HH that matched my 308 and made a great pair. Later, I bought a 458WM but have had to wait until ATF approves its import into the USA. Still waiting. This year, I found a lovely custom ER Shaw Pattern 14 Enfield. It is beautiful and shoots better than my FN and will be my go-to on the next trip. This is part of the fun. I will spend weeks/months testing, fitting scopes and re-testing. Trying loads at various distances to verify my dope for longer shots (mostly with the smaller guns), etc. It is a blast.