416 Taylor Info and Advice

[Boyd Brooks]

So a few developments on this thread. Got my Redding 416 Taylor die today! Hurray! The guns intl listing didn't scam me!

So to the bench it was this afternoon. Previously I prepped the brass with trim, chamfer, deburr, flashole cleaning, and annealing. Probably missing some steps but they got the full treatment.

So what I call "batch A" is cases that appear to be new and unfired, but previously sized. I hit these with Hornady Oneshot and ran them through no sweat. Boom! 40 cases ready.

Moved to "Batch B" which are previously sized and fired. This time just using Oneshot appeared to almost wreck everything with 2 cases nearly sticking. Pulled out the RCBS lube pad and redid all cases with that instead and had no other issues.

BUT then here comes the hijinks. batch A had 40. Nice even beautiful number. Batch B had 32. Ugly number. So I decided to take the 2 cases and pop a Speer and Woodleigh in as reference rounds. So using zero book data at all I seated them the their cannalure, popped them in the magwell, and did a chamber/extraction test (the main point of making these at this point).

While that passed I ran into this condition. The round had no major issues going in or coming out. When extracted the bullets appeared to be in the same spot. But pushing on them showed that they were no longer holding tension. I could push them in as shown. Also the cases showed some ugly marks that somewhat concern me.

Now, this poses a question. My initial instinct is to believe the brass in spec after sizing, so why the tension loss after feeding on both bullets. The larger Woodleigh I could see, but I'd expect the shorter Speer to not be an issue if it were a chamber problem. Or maybe I just need a crimp die (and FFL to me finding one if so).

Thoughts??View attachment 594537

So those scratches appeared after running them through the chamber of the rifle, not before.
Also you said that you got your reloading die, singular? My Redding die set is two dies, full length sizing die and a bullet seating/crimp die.

 

[CoElkHunter]

So a few developments on this thread. Got my Redding 416 Taylor die today! Hurray! The guns intl listing didn't scam me!

So to the bench it was this afternoon. Previously I prepped the brass with trim, chamfer, deburr, flashole cleaning, and annealing. Probably missing some steps but they got the full treatment.

So what I call "batch A" is cases that appear to be new and unfired, but previously sized. I hit these with Hornady Oneshot and ran them through no sweat. Boom! 40 cases ready.

Moved to "Batch B" which are previously sized and fired. This time just using Oneshot appeared to almost wreck everything with 2 cases nearly sticking. Pulled out the RCBS lube pad and redid all cases with that instead and had no other issues.

BUT then here comes the hijinks. batch A had 40. Nice even beautiful number. Batch B had 32. Ugly number. So I decided to take the 2 cases and pop a Speer and Woodleigh in as reference rounds. So using zero book data at all I seated them the their cannalure, popped them in the magwell, and did a chamber/extraction test (the main point of making these at this point).

While that passed I ran into this condition. The round had no major issues going in or coming out. When extracted the bullets appeared to be in the same spot. But pushing on them showed that they were no longer holding tension. I could push them in as shown. Also the cases showed some ugly marks that somewhat concern me.

Now, this poses a question. My initial instinct is to believe the brass in spec after sizing, so why the tension loss after feeding on both bullets. The larger Woodleigh I could see, but I'd expect the shorter Speer to not be an issue if it were a chamber problem. Or maybe I just need a crimp die (and FFL to me finding one if so).

Thoughts??View attachment 594537

Are the scratches from the brass from the FL sizing die? Did you use a Rigby or the Taylor die to get the necks reduced to .416 from .418? Did you use a taper or roll crimp into the cannelure when loading the bullets. My .416 Taylor only requires a medium taper crimp when loading original Barnes bullets with no cannelure in a MEDIUM load.

 

[Rez Exelon]

Unfortunately reloading die, singular is right. Couldn't find a reasonable priced set, but I found a sizing die sold individually that I picked up. So I used that for sizing the brass and then I have a Redding 416 seater from a set of 416 Ruger dies that I used for the seating. So my current "set" is:

FL Sizing - Redding 416 Taylor
Seating - Redding 416 from a 416 Ruger set.

Are the Redding dies a seat/crimp? I probably need to check on that. I know I kind of skipped a step here, but I really wanted to know if they'd actually go in the chamber so I just kind of threw them on there, although many other rounds I make don't really require any crimp so this behavior was a little odd to me.

 

[Boyd Brooks]

Unfortunately reloading die, singular is right. Couldn't find a reasonable priced set, but I found a sizing die sold individually that I picked up. So I used that for sizing the brass and then I have a Redding 416 seater from a set of 416 Ruger dies that I used for the seating. So my current "set" is:

FL Sizing - Redding 416 Taylor
Seating - Redding 416 from a 416 Ruger set.

Are the Redding dies a seat/crimp? I probably need to check on that. I know I kind of skipped a step here, but I really wanted to know if they'd actually go in the chamber so I just kind of threw them on there, although many other rounds I make don't really require any crimp so this behavior was a little odd to me.

My Redding dies are a set of two. The seating die will also do a crimp. You can range from no crimp to one that will roll right into the cannelure groove of a bullet. I’m sure it does add neck tension even if you choose not to do a crimp. I choose not to crimp my bullets as most don’t have a groove in them anyway. I have never had a bullet move from recoil or dropping them on the bullet. I think a Taylor seating die will fix your problem.

 

[Rez Exelon]

My Redding dies are a set of two. The seating die will also do a crimp. You can range from no crimp to one that will roll right into the cannelure groove of a bullet. I’m sure it does add neck tension even if you choose not to do a crimp. I choose not to crimp my bullets as most don’t have a groove in them anyway. I have never had a bullet move from recoil or dropping them on the bullet. I think a Taylor seating die will fix your problem.

I'm leaning towards that as well... It'll just be a matter of finding one. In the meantime I am pretty sure I can safely single feed without too many worries at least to get some development done since the wait will potentially be long.

 

[John Telford]

So I hav

The 416 Taylor rifle I loaded the 410 Woodleigh bullets was an unknown barrel manufacturer but built on a Mauser Model 98 action. Barrel length is 25 inches.

Landed on the following two loads to test: 74 grain of RL-17 and 75 grains RL-17 for each of Woodleigh 416 Rigby 410 grain RN SN bullets and corresponding 416 Rigby 410 grain FMJ bullets. I also loaded up some of the 350 grain 416 Barnes TSX bullets that came with the rifle and used 73 grains of RL-17. I did also purchase 75 rounds of Norma 416 Taylor brass from Prophet River Sports in Lloydminster, Alberta, Canada. I annealed and fire formed (using cream of wheat), Hornady 458 Rem brass and sized to 416. COAL of the Woodleigh bullets is 84.43 mm and 85.54 mm for the Barnes 350 grain.

To crimp, ended up getting a Lee Factory Crimp die specific for the 416 Taylor from a store in Pretoria, South Africa (RSA) which I picked up with my son passing through during a hunt in RSA just before the lock-down at the end of March 2020. This item makes the perfect crimp and is truly a unicorn - perhaps one of a few left in the world and in stock at safari outdoor for 150 Rand (https://safarioutdoor.co.za/416-taylor-lee-factory-crimp-die-g00110927.html).

RL-17 I believe is a good powder for short magnums (N.B. - I use for my 300 WSM loads) and is not reportedly as temperature sensitive as RL-15, its predecessor powder for such applications. I waited for a good hot day to test (which in the foothills of Alberta at 28 Celsius is as hot as it gets). Results as follows (100 yard target range):

The 350 grain bullets made a tight grouping at 100 yards (O.5").

The 410 grain Woodleigh RN SN grouping with 75 grain RL-17 came out at 1.12 inches and the FMJ very close. I believe the rifle is capable of better accuracy - i.e., it took me my surprise the roar of this fire breathing dragon compared to shooting my my muzzle braked and tamed 300 WSM. There were no pressure signs including bulged or deformed brass, primer flattening or difficulty in removing spent rounds.

Measured velocity using a friend's Magnetospeed and happy with the reproducibility of the 75 grain RL-17 loads: i 2,346 ft/s; ii 2,359 ft/s; and, iii 2,354 ft/s (SD of 6.5). So I have achieved 416 Rigby performance with the Tayl

So I decided last year to Build aTaylor as I had a stocked action . Then in December I managed to buy a Douglas barrel in 1:12 twist . After reading this tread I rushed to the shop in Pretoria and bought a factory crimp die. They have 2 left! Thanks for the tip!

 

[Rez Exelon]

So I hav

So I decided last year to Build aTaylor as I had a stocked action . Then in December I managed to buy a Douglas barrel in 1:12 twist . After reading this tread I rushed to the shop in Pretoria and bought a factory crimp die. They have 2 left! Thanks for the tip!

Dang ... Wish I could find one stateside. Good score!

 

[Chris M.]

Dang ... Wish I could find one stateside. Good score!

Rez:

I have the crimp that I purchased in Pretoria but as @Boyd Brooks said, the Redding full set has the seating die with the crimp die component. My earlier loading used a Lee loader set but now that I had purchased the Redding set and sold the Lee set via this Forum, the crimp is not needed (but handy).

I just picked up some more Taylor brass last week from the Online Hunting Auction sale (20 pieces worth plus an equal amount more of 458 brass) and when I reload (in a month's time), I'll no longer need the crimp and can sell to you if you're interested and haven't found a solution by then. Shipping the crimp to the US shouldn't be an issue I'm thinking. After my next reloading on head stamped brass, plus all of the 458 Win annealed, fire formed and resized loads I have, I think I'll have enough ammo to last two lifetimes (which given the cost of buffalo hunting, need to save up my shekels for a tri-annual buff hunt at best). Unless I get silly and use the loads on black bears or moose...then will have enough for only one lifetime.

 

[Rez Exelon]

Rez:

I have the crimp that I purchased in Pretoria but as @Boyd Brooks said, the Redding full set has the seating die with the crimp die component. My earlier loading used a Lee loader set but now that I had purchased the Redding set and sold the Lee set via this Forum, the crimp is not needed (but handy).

I just picked up some more Taylor brass last week from the Online Hunting Auction sale (20 pieces worth plus an equal amount more of 458 brass) and when I reload (in a month's time), I'll no longer need the crimp and can sell to you if you're interested and haven't found a solution by then. Shipping the crimp to the US shouldn't be an issue I'm thinking. After my next reloading on head stamped brass, plus all of the 458 Win annealed, fire formed and resized loads I have, I think I'll have enough ammo to last two lifetimes (which given the cost of buffalo hunting, need to save up my shekels for a tri-annual buff hunt at best). Unless I get silly and use the loads on black bears or moose...then will have enough for only one lifetime.

Oh that's mighty nice of you! I'll be looking here and there and all around until then I suppose since I'd really like to figure this thing out but the way this has gone I'm not going to be surprised at all if I have to take you up on the generous offer!

 

[TigerTony35whelen]

So I'm going to post up a sort of excitement thread, because, well, I figure this is the forum where it needs to be. I just happened to win a 416 Taylor at auction, at what I think is a stupid reasonable price, and I'm kind of stoked about it.

However, I will say that I pretty well know nothing about 416 Taylor except what I've done for basic research. So if anyone cares to share anything for my journey into the caliber I'll be appreciative. The setup I'll be starting with is a CZ VZ24 rifle chambered to 416 Taylor. Alongside the rifle I won auctions for some 416 Rem Mag brass which I understand I can resize to Taylor. Additionally I picked up about 150 410gr Woodleigh bonded bullets. I did also pickup a set of 416 Rem Mag dies, but I'll have to acquire a set of Taylor dies.

Depending if I have to drive to pick it up or if I can have it shipped I hope to have it in my hands this week and see how true the pictures are to life.

If I’m not mistaken, sir 416 Taylor case,and the man Dr Taylor ,chambered the wildcat used 300 win mag brass check it out. Good luck it’s a great cartridge. PS you don’t need 416 Rem. that was a 8 mm Rem case neck up, two 416 diameter

 

[TigerTony35whelen]

Oh, and you can use any brass, Magnum belted, longer than 7 mm Remington mag. and 458 WinMag, the neck will be too short if you use these cartridges. I would stick with 300 Win. mag brass, you can use nickel plated brass it will not fetch., If you want to use your 416 REM. mag you will have to go to Harbor freight and order online a small chopsaw for about $30. You will have to cut the brass down and resize it kind of a pain. PS I have made, wildcats 40 Years, jack Lott ,458 Lott which I’ve used 8 mm rim brass and 416 REM. brass resized as well as 375 H&H, 416 Taylor is not along full size Magnum case all the best Tony

 

[Rez Exelon]

Just as an FYI, in case I didn't list it earlier in the thread, for anyone that Googles for dies and sees the Lee sets, then be wary....be very very wary. These are likely the ones that you'll get:

Ask me how I know this ---- j/k, to save time these are the two sets of "416 Taylor" dies that I got. Notice that the UPC has the 90983 on the end? That's the UPC for the Taylor...AND THESE apparently. Not sure who managed to mess that up, but be warned. These were from Amazon via Midway, although all the listings for them around the web are not to be trusted IMHO unless you get actual pictures.

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

@TSIBINDI not sure if you want to chime in here

 

[cajunchefray]

Unfortunately reloading die, singular is right. Couldn't find a reasonable priced set, but I found a sizing die sold individually that I picked up. So I used that for sizing the brass and then I have a Redding 416 seater from a set of 416 Ruger dies that I used for the seating. So my current "set" is:

FL Sizing - Redding 416 Taylor
Seating - Redding 416 from a 416 Ruger set.

Are the Redding dies a seat/crimp? I probably need to check on that. I know I kind of skipped a step here, but I really wanted to know if they'd actually go in the chamber so I just kind of threw them on there, although many other rounds I make don't really require any crimp so this behavior was a little odd to me.

I suspect the 416 Ruger seating die is not applying the proper crimp, because the case body of a 416 Ruger is Larger (.515 at the shoulder) than the 416 Taylor (.489 at the shoulder).
The parent case for each is different. The difference in the geometry may affect the crimp, and possibly the runout of the seated bullet may be off.

When I had my .416 Taylor, I had a Redding die set, and the Lee Factory Crimp die. Reloading was a breeze.

Use Imperial Sizing Die Wax, applied sparingly to the neck.
Works like a champ!

With all the work you have put into the project, I would just "bite the bullet" (pun intended) and buy the Redding 2 dies set from Prophet River in Canada.

 

[TSIBINDI]

...In 1987 I had Fred Wells build my .416 Taylor using a pre '64 model 70 short mag action, 24" Krieger barrel with 1;12 twist and installed in a super grade stock. This was my African dangerous game rifle.

Rifle arrived in Dec of '87, and I began load development. I had nine months to prepare for my first trip to Zimbabwe. Initially I wanted to match the ballistics of the .416 Rigby (410gr bullet @ 2400fps.) With a 400gr bullet that velocity was achievable. However, I settled on 2385fps. Accuracy with SP and FMJ were much better at this velocity.

I used custom RCBS dies, Winchester .458WM brass, Fed 215 primers and IMR 4320 powder initially. Later, I began using AA2520 powder.

Load data for 400gr Hornady FMJ bullets. Best load with IMR 4320, 72.0grs=2393fps.
RL-15, 72.5grs=2392fps
AA2520, 72.0grs=2385fps

Most of the shooting for DG was using Jack Carter's original TBSH, and TBBC bullets. Later, I switched to Speer AGS solids for dangerous game, and Swift soft points for plains game.

I used this .416 Taylor for elephant (6), buffalo (5), lion (1), eland (3), kudu (4), hippo (1), giraffe (3), wildebeest (3), nyala (1), hartebeest (1), zebra (6), and warthog (2).

My suggestion, FWIW, get a proper set of .416 Taylor dies. If you can't locate any Taylor brass, use .458 mag brass and go for it.

One final note: The loads I listed are for MY rifle! I don't recommend them for any other rifle.

Good luck.

 

[TSIBINDI]

...Oooops! My proofreader, (ME) erred. The actual velocity for accuracy should read: 2365fps, not 2385fps as listed in the above missive. And for clarification, the lion was hunted, and taken with Barnes original soft point bullets.

 

[John Telford]

I managed to find some .458 3 inch brass that is unstamped and I can get a guy in Pretoria to head stamp 416 T on them for me. What length should I cut them to before I run them through the press?

 

[cajunchefray]

I managed to find some .458 3 inch brass that is unstamped and I can get a guy in Pretoria to head stamp 416 T on them for me. What length should I cut them to before I run them through the press?

The standard length of .458 Win Mag 2.50 inches. This is the more common parent case used to form .416 Taylor, and what I used.

The max length of the .416 Taylor is 2.50 inches, trim to 2.492 inches.
This is from Pierre van der Walt's excellent book, African Dangerous Game Cartridges, as well as the Lee Reloading Manual, 2nd edition.

 

[450 Rigby]

I am considering doing a 416 Taylor build myself. I have a Winchester 70 Stainless CRF with Accurate Innovations stock in 9.3x338 Win Mag that SSK built and I picked up for a steal some years back. Due to no properly head stamped brass and the restrictions of 9.3mm on dangerous game I'm looking hard at finding a #5 Lilja, Hart, Krieger, Pac-Nor, or other high quality 416 barrel, probably 1-12 or 1-14 twist, finishing it at 21" or 22" and running NECG sights with a barrel band. Matt Roberts at MNR Customs is finding out if a drop box is available from Sunny Hill to get 4 rounds down + 1 in the spout. He has a 416 Taylor reamer. Finding a barrel seems to be an issue. If anyone has a lead or suggestion I'd appreciate it.....and I don't mean to hijack this thread. ). I'm considering getting some NorthFork 370gr SS and Cup Point Solids thinking I could get the velocity around 2400 fps plus from the shorter barrel however it may be a moot point.

 

[450 Rigby]

I had also considered a 416 Ruger but the brass/ammo availability seems to be worse than 416 Taylor and I'm unsure that it provides much more in performance over the 416 Taylor. That along with magazine capacity constraints of the 416 Ruger leads me back to the 416 Taylor. I'm don't think the 416 Taylor really gives up much to the 416 Ruger in performance on dangerous game.