404 Jeffery Hodgdon H 4350 loads feedback?

[Ontario Hunter]

Ontario, recoil never is a factor to me at all. especially when shooting the 404 Jeffery..I would be able to shoot the 400 gn bullets at 2300f/s without experiencing felt recoil as considering it at all..my Westley Richards 404 Jeffery is a well build rifle from 1930 era is a pleasure to shoot for sure, as I mentioned, no pressure in the chamber at all..so recoil really is not an issue for me...My recoil platform is at an .458 Win Mag 530gn bullet at 2300 f/s ..
When building the .500 Jeffery I will see what my recoil platform will be..
The grouping I shot this morning , with open sights , V-Express on my 404 Jeffery indicates that recoil did not have any effect today with the H4350, 84gn , 400gn BARNES X bullets , 89.5 OAL at the 2227f/s ...3f/t more will not amount to an increase in felt recoil at all..all comes down to rifle stock design..

my Westley Richards 404 Jeffery has the best rifle stock design you can possibly hope for, I build the same rifle stock design for my .375 H&H Magnum rifle ..I will duplicate this rifle stock design as well when building my .500 Jeffery rifle .

Interesting. Not sure how my stock design compares to yours but I suspect yours has typical European straight comb and low profile. Mine has Monte Carlo but fairly low profile.

I can acquire 1-4x scope instantly on mounting the rifle (but bolt handle to scope clearance is approx thickness of cigarette paper!). Iron sights also acquire instantly when gun is mounted sans the scope. I have nothing but a similarly designed 30-06 stock for comparison but my 404 from the bench with 80 gr Acc 4350 and 400 gr Barnes X seems fairly stout for recoil. I do set up on the bench as high as possible. I will see if one of the guys from the club can meet me at the range with a chrono. Comparison to your numbers would be interesting. I know the two types of 4350 do have different burn rates but I didn't think it was terribly significant. I was guessing 80 gr was giving me around 2200 fps but maybe not if H4350 at 84 gr is doing that for you. It appears we are both getting about the same accuracy. I'm putting bullets on top of each other at 50 yards.

I am not recoil sensitive ... but my retinas are.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

The Swift manual doesn't list H4350 for the 404J.

The Hornady 10th Ed manual lists 78.9 gr max load for the 404J for DGX and DGS bullets (400 gr).

Jip, even the South African propellant S365 list 76gn as MAX... but...we who shoot a 404 Jeffery does things always on a larger scale..we go "Over and Beyond" the normal...84gn of H4350 seems much in line with what can be handle in a 404 Jeffery rifle ...

 

[Ontario Hunter]

The Swift manual doesn't list H4350 for the 404J.

The Hornady 10th Ed manual lists 78.9 gr max load for the 404J for DGX and DGS bullets (400 gr).

Interesting. Maximum @ 78.9 gr? I started at 77 gr for Accurate 4350 and that was not enough as primers were jumping up in pocket. I know, that sounds like a symptom of too much pressure, but actually an indication of powder charge below minimum. Recoil was quite manageable. The very limited load data I could find for Accurate 4350 and 404J was for Barnes TSX 400 gr. It said to start at 77 gr but obviously too conservative. I have almost burned up my Accurate 4350. Now that other powder is more available, I should probably switch to Hodgon or IMR. Easier to find load data for those powders.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Interesting. Not sure how my stock design compares to yours but I suspect yours has typical European straight comb and low profile. Mine has Monte Carlo but fairly low profile.
View attachment 628514
I can acquire 1-4x scope instantly on mounting the rifle (but bolt handle to scope clearance is approx thickness of cigarette paper!). Iron sights also acquire instantly when gun is mounted sans the scope. I have nothing but a similarly designed 30-06 stock for comparison but my 404 from the bench with 80 gr Acc 4350 and 400 gr Barnes X seems fairly stout for recoil. I do set up on the bench as high as possible. I will see if one of the guys from the club can meet me at the range with a chrono. Comparison to your numbers would be interesting. I know the two types of 4350 do have different burn rates but I didn't think it was terribly significant. I was guessing 80 gr was giving me around 2200 fps but maybe not if H4350 at 84 gr is doing that for you. It appears we are both getting about the same accuracy. I'm putting bullets on top of each other at 50 yards.

I am not recoil sensitive ... but my retinas are.

This H4350 load is written in Pierre van der Walt, author of African Dangerous Game Cartridges page 284 , I did collaborate with Pierre van der Walt here in South Africa when I commenced the loads for the 404 Jeffery..
Pierre indicated that the S365 propellant was not a suitable propellant for the 404 Jeffery at all...not if you need to get muzzle velocities in the region of 2300f/s ....
I did send the results to Pierre today, he likes the results...

Members on the forum did mention the 84gn of H4350 as well, but with the Rhino 400gn bullet...

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Interesting. Maximum @ 78.9 gr? I started at 77 gr for Accurate 4350 and that was not enough as primers were jumping up in pocket. I know, that sounds like a symptom of too much pressure, but actually an indication of powder charge below minimum. Recoil was quite manageable. The very limited load data I could find for Accurate 4350 and 404J was for Barnes TSX 400 gr. It said to start at 77 gr but obviously too conservative. I have almost burned up my Accurate 4350. Now that other powder is more available, I should probably switch to Hodgon or IMR. Easier to find load data for those powders.

You only need ONE load , the H4350, 84gn with a 400gn bullet with a OAL 89.5mm

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Interesting. Not sure how my stock design compares to yours but I suspect yours has typical European straight comb and low profile. Mine has Monte Carlo but fairly low profile.
View attachment 628514
I can acquire 1-4x scope instantly on mounting the rifle (but bolt handle to scope clearance is approx thickness of cigarette paper!). Iron sights also acquire instantly when gun is mounted sans the scope. I have nothing but a similarly designed 30-06 stock for comparison but my 404 from the bench with 80 gr Acc 4350 and 400 gr Barnes X seems fairly stout for recoil. I do set up on the bench as high as possible. I will see if one of the guys from the club can meet me at the range with a chrono. Comparison to your numbers would be interesting. I know the two types of 4350 do have different burn rates but I didn't think it was terribly significant. I was guessing 80 gr was giving me around 2200 fps but maybe not if H4350 at 84 gr is doing that for you. It appears we are both getting about the same accuracy. I'm putting bullets on top of each other at 50 yards.

I am not recoil sensitive ... but my retinas are.

The 404 Jeffery Wesley Richards design rifle stock of my rifle

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Here is the Leopold 1.5-5x20rifle scope....to me it really is not a great scope at all..when hunting in real thick bush/tree canopy veld ..I really was struggling to see a spot on an impala to shoot at since this scope does not handle such conditions at all..I now has a vintage Smidt & Bender 4x36 rifle scope I want to fit, the diameter of this rifle scope is 26mm , so I had to order 26 mm diameter scope rings ..

 

[Ontario Hunter]

View attachment 628516

The 404 Jeffery Wesley Richards design rifle stock of my rifle

Profile appears to be as I suspected. Typical classic European. Fine for open sights but finding field of view for scopes can be a problem sometimes. Is that a flag safety?

 

[IvW]

I suspect the 91/2 Remington Magnum Rifle primers, I convert to the CCI 250 Large Rifle primers .

Try Federal 215 primers......

 

[Ontario Hunter]

View attachment 628517
Here is the Leopold 1.5-5x20rifle scope....to me it really is not a great scope at all..when hunting in real thick bush/tree canopy veld ..I really was struggling to see a spot on an impala to shoot at since this scope does not handle such conditions at all..I now has a vintage Smidt & Bender 4x36 rifle scope I want to fit, the diameter of this rifle scope is 26mm , so I had to order 26 mm diameter scope rings ..View attachment 628518

Acquisition will likely be slower with the thicker 1" S&B scope. I suspect your 3/4" Leopold was to accommodate clearance needed for safety? It is relatively rare to find 3/4" scopes over here. You likely will need higher rings for clearance.

I mounted a 30mm scope on my Mauser with Warne low QD rings and an exceptionally low Weaver one-piece base. But I had to remove just a bit from bolt handle for scope clearance. I have 3-position side safety so no issues with it clearing the scope. $200 in the white (I could bring one over for you?)

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Try Federal 215 primers......

The 9 1/2 Remington primers was not the problem, the chronograph battery was the problem,,,,new battery and everything work again...was able to chronograph these velocities of the small group at 70 meters...

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Profile appears to be as I suspected. Typical classic European. Fine for open sights but finding field of view for scopes can be a problem sometimes. Is that a flag safety?

Yes a flag safety, it does not bother me at all...the scope I had on the 404 , the Leopold was working fine, finding a target fast was not a problem at all..the only problem was hunting with it in thick bush/tree canopy areas ...it struggles to give a clear view at the target animal.
I will come back to you on the 3xposition safety for sure...

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Acquisition will likely be slower with the thicker 1" S&B scope. I suspect your 3/4" Leopold was to accommodate clearance needed for safety? It is relatively rare to find 3/4" scopes over here. You likely will need higher rings for clearance.

I mounted a 30mm scope on my Mauser with Warne low QD rings and an exceptionally low Weaver one-piece base. But I had to remove just a bit from bolt handle for scope clearance. I have 3-position side safety so no issues with it clearing the scope. $200 in the white (I could bring one over for you?)

No I have medium high Thor stud rings ...it works quite well...we have the standard 25mm, scarce 26mm, 30mm and 34mm diameter scope rings here in South Africa

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Yes a flag safety, it does not bother me at all...the scope I had on the 404 , the Leopold was working fine, finding a target fast was not a problem at all..the only problem was hunting with it in thick bush/tree canopy areas ...it struggles to give a clear view at the target animal.
I will come back to you on the 3xposition safety for sure...

Yes, the 3/4" scope would acquire okay because it is low enough (but I suspect you're still off the gun slightly to find field of view). But as you noted the field of view for 3/4" scope is very compressed and they don't let in much light. The thicker 1" scope may need to be raised for clearance for safety and/or bolt handle. Even if it clears them both, the center of field of view will still be raised = bringing your cheek even further off the comb. Is your "flag safety" a classic 3-position 98 Mauser style or 2-position scope relief wing safety on left side? If you have the classic Mauser style 3-position safety that must be flipped over from left to right side, you will almost certainly have clearance issues with that new scope. 2-position operational on left side only would probably less problematic. The drawback to the 2-position wing safety is the lever is exposed and vulnerable to being accidentally disengaged when scope is removed for iron sights.

I have Parkwest 3-position side safety on my 404. It's okay but some quality control issues that I had to resolve. I heard Wisner had one of his up for bid on ebay recently and it didn't go for minimum bid of $195. Someone on the forum said Myers has dropped his price to $200. If true, that would be my choice. Those are very good quality.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Yes, the 3/4" scope would acquire okay because it is low enough (but I suspect you're still off the gun slightly to find field of view). But as you noted the field of view for 3/4" scope is very compressed and they don't let in much light. The thicker 1" scope may need to be raised for clearance for safety and/or bolt handle. Even if it clears them both, the center of field of view will still be raised = bringing your cheek even further off the comb. Is your "flag safety" a classic 3-position 98 Mauser style or 2-position scope relief wing safety on left side? If you have the classic Mauser style 3-position safety that must be flipped over from left to right side, you will almost certainly have clearance issues with that new scope. 2-position operational on left side only would probably less problematic. The drawback to the 2-position wing safety is the lever is exposed and vulnerable to being accidentally disengaged when scope is removed for iron sights.

I have Parkwest 3-position side safety on my 404. It's okay but some quality control issues that I had to resolve. I heard Wisner had one of his up for bid on ebay recently and it didn't go for minimum bid of $195. Someone on the forum said Myers has dropped his price to $200. If true, that would be my choice. Those are very good quality.

At this stage I want to shoot the 404 Jeffery with open sights out to 100 meters. I know where the 404 Jeffery print the impact shots. In the near future I will be working on loads using AXE bullets manufactured here in South Africa. I want to get the open sights to print in the center of the 100 meters target.
I still can manage seeing quite well out to 100 meters at a 100mm target and will be able to hit is every time like I hit the 50mm target at 70 meters..this rifle is made to walk and stalk when hunting. I have the .375 H&H Magnum with a Weaver Grand Slam 4-16x44 mm that is more tan enough to shoot out to 200 meters, as well as the 6.5x55 Swedish Mauser that has a Weaver Grand Slam scope 4-20x50mm that will reach out to 300 meters ..

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Feedback:
Members the Buffalo cow hunt did go well. Glen and Magiel both hunt their buffalo cows shooting only one shot each . The Buffalo cows went down immediately after each shot.
The death bellows uttered by the Buffalo cows was something unique for myself to hear .
The two hunters was really impress by the easy manner the 404 Jeffery rifle killed the two Buffaloes.
I noticed the following:
The Smidt & Bender 1.1-4x 20 scope really has not a lot of eye relief at all..keep in mind this was the first time ever these two hunters shot a 404 Jeffery rifle.While shooting /zero the scope on the rifle both hunters were nicked by the scope..
We compared the eye relief of my vintage Smidt & Bender 4x36 with the newer version of the Smidt & Bender scope Glen brought over from Texas, USA.
The vintage Smidt & Bender has a much longer eye relief than the newer scope.

The two hunter really shot the 404 Jeffery very accurate , even if it was their first time ever hunting with the 404 Jeffery.
We were able to recover one of the BARNES X 400gn bullets.. weight retention was 94% , one petal broke off.
It really was a great experience for myself since my 404 Jeffery were used for what is was build for , after all the hunting /shooting done with it since 1930 , this hunt in 2024 was a culmination of a great hunt for these two American hunters.

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Spoils of the hunt:
I got the carcasses of the two Golden Wildebeest that was hunted by the hunters as well . Paid R25 /kg for the one large carcass, got the second Golden Wildebeest carcass for free from my friend Glen (Texas)
The owner/PH gave me the Buffalo cow`s backstraps as a token of good will , maybe it is my nice personality
I am currently busy processing all the meat for table fair in my home build butchery ...

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Feedback:
Members the Buffalo cow hunt did go well. Glen and Magiel both hunt their buffalo cows shooting only one shot each . The Buffalo cows went down immediately after each shot.
The death bellows uttered by the Buffalo cows was something unique for myself to hear .
The two hunters was really impress by the easy manner the 404 Jeffery rifle killed the two Buffaloes.
I noticed the following:
The Smidt & Bender 1.1-4x 20 scope really has not a lot of eye relief at all..keep in mind this was the first time ever these two hunters shot a 404 Jeffery rifle.While shooting /zero the scope on the rifle both hunters were nicked by the scope..
We compared the eye relief of my vintage Smidt & Bender 4x36 with the newer version of the Smidt & Bender scope Glen brought over from Texas, USA.
The vintage Smidt & Bender has a much longer eye relief than the newer scope.

The two hunter really shot the 404 Jeffery very accurate , even if it was their first time ever hunting with the 404 Jeffery.
We were able to recover one of the BARNES X 400gn bullets.. weight retention was 94% , one petal broke off.
It really was a great experience for myself since my 404 Jeffery were used for what is was build for , after all the hunting /shooting done with it since 1930 , this hunt in 2024 was a culmination of a great hunt for these two American hunters.
View attachment 630693View attachment 630694View attachment 630695View attachment 630696View attachment 630697

Interesting comparison re the two scopes. One would expect the lower magnification newer scope would have more eye relief. Were they zeroing from the bench? I have substantial +4" eye relief with my new 1-4x 30mm Bushnell scope but on the bench with 400 gr Barnes bullets I still have to hang onto my 404 firmly or it will kiss me.

So your rifle started out life in 1930s as 404J? I note only one crossbolt. Must be a standard length action?

 

[Gert Odendaal]

Interesting comparison re the two scopes. One would expect the lower magnification newer scope would have more eye relief. Were they zeroing from the bench? I have substantial +4" eye relief with my new 1-4x 30mm Bushnell scope but on the bench with 400 gr Barnes bullets I still have to hang onto my 404 firmly or it will kiss me.

So your rifle started out life in 1930s as 404J? I note only one crossbolt. Must be a standard length action?

Yes, they were sighting in from a standing position table shooting over shooting bags. Not sitting. The vintage scope had a lot more eye relief than the newer version Smidt & Bender scope..
It was manufacturing as a Westley Richards 404 Jeffery in 1930 for a Game Ranger that managed the Thembe region in Southern Mozambique/Kosibay Natal region. It was used to shoot /cull the last elephant and buffalo since the tsetse fly that caused "ngana /sleeping sickness in cattle /humans.
Like in Rhodesia during the 1960-1980 era tsetse fly caused a mass culling of game animals like elephant/buffalo/warthog and even plains game to get rid from the tsetse fly that was using these game animals as carriers..
Later years they would start spraying DDT that had a devastating effect on the fauna and flora ...especially on bird life since the DDT caused egg shells to be brittle and a huge decline in bird species.

The Game Ranger in the Tembe region had a apprentice whom he gave the 404 Jeffery to in 1976 , Mike White was the apprentice and in 1976 Mike had to re-barrel the 404 Jeffery since the barrel was shot out ..It is a standard Mauser action, opened up to the rear, the stripper clip opening was milled away.

I bought it from Mike White fifteen years ago. ..I am using exactly the same method when opening up a Mauser action to build a larger caliber rifle , working on the feeding ramp and rails is not too difficult to ensuring a flawless cycling of the bolt at all..

This 404 Jeffery really is a dream rifle to shoot, it is light, handles extremely good to acquire field of view and the target ..it is accurate with v-express sights as well..I am using it to shoot open sights at 100 meters and it is accurate out to 100 meters, I have not shot it out to 150 meters or further ...

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Yes, they were sighting in from a standing position table shooting over shooting bags. Not sitting. The vintage scope had a lot more eye relief than the newer version Smidt & Bender scope..
It was manufacturing as a Westley Richards 404 Jeffery in 1930 for a Game Ranger that managed the Thembe region in Southern Mozambique/Kosibay Natal region. It was used to shoot /cull the last elephant and buffalo since the tsetse fly that caused "ngana /sleeping sickness in cattle /humans.
Like in Rhodesia during the 1960-1980 era tsetse fly caused a mass culling of game animals like elephant/buffalo/warthog and even plains game to get rid from the tsetse fly that was using these game animals as carriers..
Later years they would start spraying DDT that had a devastating effect on the fauna and flora ...especially on bird life since the DDT caused egg shells to be brittle and a huge decline in bird species.

The Game Ranger in the Tembe region had a apprentice whom he gave the 404 Jeffery to in 1976 , Mike White was the apprentice and in 1976 Mike had to re-barrel the 404 Jeffery since the barrel was shot out ..It is a standard Mauser action, opened up to the rear, the stripper clip opening was milled away.

I bought it from Mike White fifteen years ago. ..I am using exactly the same method when opening up a Mauser action to build a larger caliber rifle , working on the feeding ramp and rails is not too difficult to ensuring a flawless cycling of the bolt at all..

This 404 Jeffery really is a dream rifle to shoot, it is light, handles extremely good to acquire field of view and the target ..it is accurate with v-express sights as well..I am using it to shoot open sights at 100 meters and it is accurate out to 100 meters, I have not shot it out to 150 meters or further ...

Building a 404 on standard Mauser does not require opening up the action to the rear. I didn't need to. Open up the magazine box and loading ramp forward. The inside of the rear action ring does need to be trimmed a bit on the ejection side to allow the fatter cartridges to kick out. But not too much or the extractor will escape its track in the receiver and the action will jam. I just measured the clearance this morning: a cartridge with bullet seated to spec 3.53" OAL has about 0.07" clearance from locking ring at the point when ejector is contacted. Opening the action up to the rear would require modifying the ejector and bolt stop as well as removing substantially more metal from the rear ring. Not necessary. There's no point in increasing the potential for something to go wrong.