378 Wheatherby Magnum, opinions please

[One Day...]

Yes, but ... I can't think of a dangerous game situation where I couldn't make the exact same shot with a .375 with a bit less fuss and bother - certainly at 150 yards.

Which is, I guess, (if you remove the words 'dangerous') the exact point that lovers of the 30-06 make to lovers of the .300 Win Mag - you can relate to that ;-) or lovers of the 7x64 (or 280 Rem) make to lovers of the 7 mm Rem Mag - I can relate to that ;-)

And herein lays my trouble, LOL, I personally have never been able to take side because I see the point of both sides...

Case in point - and I could not resist taking them out of the safe, lest you think I only own 'plastic guns' LOL:

Top: Sauer 90 Luxus in 7mm Rem Mag with Swarovski 3-12x56 in Steyr QD mounts.

Bottom: Steyr Mannlicher Luxus in 7x64 with rail Schmidt & Bender 3-12x50 in Steyr QD mounts.

I love both and am supremely confident in both, and both have accounted for many, many heads of game, in Europe and in the US, but is the 7mm Rem Mag just an overly loud 7x64 (or 280 Rem, or should we push the point to even include the 7x57?) about which "I can't think of a game situation where I couldn't make the exact same shot with a 7x64 (.280 Rem) with a bit less fuss and bother - certainly at 150 yards"?
Or does the 7mm Rem Mag truly offer more because it extends the reach? (at its own proportional cost of increased blast and recoil)

I never could decide, so I ended up owning one of each LOL LOL LOL

In that awesome gun room @Red Leg, do you also have a .308 or 30-06 beside your .300 Win Mag? Do you too agonize over which one to take out on any given hunt?

 

[One Day...]

Everybody mention 375 HH and I'd like to have one,they are extremly rare in my country but someone is selling a 378 wheatherby magnum , anyone knows how good , bad or problematic is this caliber, what about the recoil?
I've never shot (or seen) anyting biger than a 300 win mag. Thaks for your input.

But to come back to the question that started this thread, I believe that when all is said - and a lot of good things were said - @Red Leg is the one who best answered the question:

It should be the choice of someone who knows exactly what they are getting into and the limitations they represent. Probably not the best solution for someone wondering if they should get the Weatherby or a .375.

If someone asks this question, the answer is built into the question: if you do not know enough about the two calibers to answer your own question, consider the question answered for you by default: you are likely not ready to tackle one of the most specialized calibers in the hunting world.

 

[C Gamboa]

This has being a very interesting thread for me, I'v learned a lot about heavy calibres I hadn't even eared about; I won't try to buy that rifle (378 Wby) since there are no cartridges or realoding material for it, plus I'm not skilled enough to use it and I really don't need it, and again: thanks to all of you for your input.

Candelario Gamboa . (and yes, that's my name )

 

[Shootist43]

I think you made a wise decision. Have you looked into purchasing a rifle off /www.gunsinternational.com?

 

[C Gamboa]

No, I can't, in México citizens can only buy from the government or between citizens with quite a bit of restrictions, but I just got a 300 HH and I'm sure it will do.

 

[Von S.]

Candelario,

The 300 H&H is a very pleasant round to shoot.

At the end of the day,when all is said and done, it is you and only you who has to be happy with what you have, and should you become deadly accurate , use the right ammo and take only shots that you know you can make and things will be great.

Though many people don't know it there is only one gun store in all of Mexico. Is it still in Mexico City?

Best of luck

 

[C Gamboa]

Yes, it is in Mexico city.

 

[IvW]

This has being a very interesting thread for me, I'v learned a lot about heavy calibres I hadn't even eared about; I won't try to buy that rifle (378 Wby) since there are no cartridges or realoding material for it, plus I'm not skilled enough to use it and I really don't need it, and again: thanks to all of you for your input.

Candelario Gamboa . (and yes, that's my name )

Wise choice and the right decision. The 300 H&H is a great caliber.

All the best and good luck.

 

[Shootist43]

That 300 H&H will make you a happy camper.

 

[Tom Leoni]

Perhaps I'm narrow-minded, but I've never seen the upside of a cartridge like the .378 Wby. Strike one: recoil is roughly 4 times that of a .30-06--and unless one is an exceptionally cool shot, it's the quickest avenue to developing a flinch. That, or the rifle can be outfitted with a plethora of recoil-reducing devices, including a muzzle brake that will drive the rest of the hunting party nuts. Strike two: what is the gain that warrants such an additional cost in recoil? Velocity? Why would anyone need a dangerous-game rifle with a near-350-yard point blank range? Would it be to swat buffalo or elephant at that distance? (And is that really hunting?) Penetration? How much more penetration is needed than with a regular .375, which has reliably killed every specie in the world? And that's assuming that the bullet holds together and keeps traveling straight once inside the animal at those absurd velocities, which is a big assumption.

So yes, the .378 is really swell if one is positive he can handle recoil without a deleterious effect on shooting skills, and if one is prepared to only use the absolutely toughest bullets that are designed to expand without exploding at those head-spinning velocities (but then, that kind of negates the advantage of shooting at great distances, where velocity is shed even by the .378, making the super-duper bullet behave pretty much like a solid).

To those who can do all this, hats off. To those who can't but still hunt with a .378, à chacun son goût, I guess. The caliber is most decidedly not for me, and as for Weatherby rifles, they've always reminded me of Peroxyde blondes with E-size breast implants--give me the girl next door any day. ;-)

 

[ChrisG]

I don't really have a dog in this fight because I have never fired a .378 weatherby, or seen one used on game, but it seems to me that designing a dangerous game cartridge that is capable of exceedingly long shots at dangerous game, negates its use as a dangerous game cartridge. Let me explain.... Dangerous game is ONLY dangerous when up close, they have no ability to hurt you from a distance. Therefore, It seems to me that picking off a lion from a quarter mile is about as dangerous as hitting a traffic cone with an Abrams tank at 20mph.

As to hitting power... I don't have the experience of some here, and they can chime in if they'd like, but from what I have observed in shooting a lot of black bears and smaller "big" game with a variety of calibers, making a smaller caliber go faster ONLY increases its effective range. You aren't going to overwhelm a 1,500lb animal with a piddly little 7,000ft.lb round. If the gun doesn't knock you over (about 30% of that isn't even related to the projectile, but to the expulsion of hot gas at the muzzle), that bullet wouldn't even budge a cape buffalo unless you disrupt the CNS. There are many cases of buff not being knocked down and out by a 4 bore... which hits much harder. If you want to make the case for the 40mm Bofors, I would listen.

If you want to shoot game at longe range (I personally think that ethical hunters shouldn't shoot much past 400 yards unless you are an exceptionally skilled marksman-few are. I impose my limit at about 300. Just MHO), and you want to do it with a medium bore, all the power to you! Just don't tell someone you went "dangerous game hunting" when your first shot is at 375 yards. In my mind that is no different than popping a woodchuck.... other than the cost of the hunt. Anyone has the guts to do that. Stand 15 yards from an 10 ft. tall elephant who is blaring at you while trying to make a cool, collected shot. To me, that is much, MUCH more impressive.

This is, however, all just my opinion and isn't written to offend.

 

[Von S.]

Interesting comments.

But somewhere right now there is a guy with a 30-30 wondering why anyone would need a 308 and that guy shaking his head wondering why the guy with a 30-06 needs that, and he is saying how silly a guy with a 300. Win Mag is, and even he is shaking his head in disbelief about those who own a 30 RUM.

....,.and they are all hunting black bears and white tailed deer.

I know a guy who wants to hunt dangerous game with a 45-70 and when he asked me what I thought I offered him "good luck ", not anything else. When he pressed the issue and asked what I would take he didn't like my answer and went into a rant about bison hunting at 500 yards with the old 45'-70 and such until I excused myself and said it was time for dinner and shuffled off at 2 PM.

It is great to have opinions , but I find it difficult to accept the opinions of detractors of anything when they themselves have limited or no first hand experience with what they are liberally throwing the 5 gallon bucket of bad mouth over.

Yes! The 378 does kick, but at least when I say it , it is first hand info and not just a guess or something repeated from someone else who never even seen one either.

If standing 15 yards in front of a rampaging bull elephant in heat and shoot at him with something like a 375 H&H impressed someone then I suggest that they do it and just impress the hell out of themselves. That would be a spot that I would not like to find myself and if I were ever to want to put myself in a situation like that the 460 Weatherby would be the smallest thing I would think of.

I practiced with a 378 a few days back and shooting at 6" plates at 50 to 200 yards I found myself wanting. All shots were standing with 100 and in off hand and after that with sticks. After I called my hits I would not have went hunting and would have just spent more time practicing. By the way....I would not have missed the vitals of a cape with any of the shots at any of the distances, but when someone starts to say, " that's good enough to get in the boiler room" is when you turn the professional Hunter into your "personal Hunter" as he breaks his stones running your miss shot game down.

Tom and Chris. I like what you guys wrote, it made me chuckle. The bra and tank things......

The talk of ethics and distance makes sense. I have seen people take shots at like targets at 500 yards when the same person can't do better than 3 inches off a bench at 100 yards with a outfit that shoots sub moa. I have seen people who can't hit a trash can lid at off hand at 100 yards with a custom made Mauser action 308 but they go hunting. And yes! I have seen guys go hunting with a rifle too powerful for them who CHS ( can't hit and you fill in the rest) yet they still go hunting. Ethics? In many ways quite a high percentage of guys who call themselves hunters are somewhat ethically challenged as many couldn't hit themselves in the butt with a banjo.

Try to guess at what percentage of hunters can hit three 6" plates at 100 yards with their hunting rifle, off hand,standing with no aid? It isn't many.

As for me, I abhor anything that necessatates the need for a second shot to keep any animal from getting up or running off, be it questionable marksmanship, not knowing where to hit the animal at different angles, the inability to control yourself to wait for the right shot, wrong bullet for the animal or velocity.

So is the 378 the right round for everyone? Oh hell no... Not even close. Not one in ten, not one in a hundred, not even one in a thousand can master it. But for the ones who can it offers a rich reward of being able to drop game like no other large medium bore on the planet.

 

[Russ-F]

So is the 378 the right round for everyone? Oh hell no... Not even close. Not one in ten, not one in a hundred, not even one in a thousand can master it. But for the ones who can it offers a rich reward of being able to drop game like no other large medium bore on the planet.

I don't think the fact the .378 WM is at the top of the medium bore ladder as regards potency is in doubt but perhaps it could be worth considering if any other cartridges (of any bore size) generally have a better effect on the DG target than the .378 WM for equal recoil (or the same effect for less recoil).

Regards
Russ

PS good points made regarding practicing off-hand at plates etc

 

[Von S.]

I don't think the fact the .378 WM is at the top of the medium bore ladder as regards potency is in doubt but perhaps it could be worth considering if any other cartridges (of any bore size) generally have a better effect on the DG target than the .378 WM for equal recoil (or the same effect for less recoil).

Regards
Russ

PS good points made regarding practicing off-hand at plates etc

Russ.

Yes! There are many fine cartridges for big dangerous game and yes many Superior to the 378 due to the fact that they throw a bigger heavier bullet swiftly and have much greater foot pounds of energy to deliver in target.

I have always considered accuracy #1, with correct bullet construction as #2 and speed within reason as #3. The speed within reason is that without enough of it it becomes doubtful of it's lethality. Hitting and killing are two different things indeed.

Thanks

 

[IvW]

I don't think the fact the .378 WM is at the top of the medium bore ladder as regards potency is in doubt but perhaps it could be worth considering if any other cartridges (of any bore size) generally have a better effect on the DG target than the .378 WM for equal recoil (or the same effect for less recoil).

Regards
Russ

PS good points made regarding practicing off-hand at plates etc

There are many DG cartridges that will give much better effect on DG at less recoil than the 378 WM.

 

[One Day...]

... Why would anyone need a dangerous-game rifle with a near-350-yard point blank range?

This is good. I agree.

... It seems to me that picking off a lion from a quarter mile is about as dangerous as hitting a traffic cone with an Abrams tank at 20 mph.

This is even better. How not to agree.

These are very valid points to which I entirely agree, but, interestingly, these are not the points that I would use to define the cartridge. To me, the bottom line is best captured with these two sets of numbers (i.e. data):
.378 Wby 300 gr; velocity @ 150 yd: ~2,400 fps; energy at 150 yd: ~3,900 ft/lbs
.375 H&H 300 gr; velocity @ 50 yd: ~2,400 fps; energy at 50 yd: ~3,900 ft/lbs

So, in the real world: .378 Wby at 150 yd = .375 H&H at 50 yd.

Let's talk about that:

I do not find ridiculous the thought of shooting a buffalo at 150 yd in open space (e.g. Tanzania long grass; Zambezi Delta; etc.), and many do so, very ethically. My understanding from discussions with 3 different PHs (all duly licensed and members in good standing of PHASA, i.e. these are real PHs, not 'internet' PHs - wink wink), no later than 4 weeks ago, when I actually shot a buff with an open sighted .470 NE at ~30 yd (see video at https://www.africahunting.com/media...frican-safaris-in-limpopo-south-africa.69034/) is that 150 yd is in the real world a very common distance for buffalo, especially in open country, and especially toward the end of the season, and I can see a lot of good reasons why one would want to hit a buff as hard at 150 yd with a .378 Wby as a .375 H&H hits at 50 yd.

We can certainly all laugh at funny 'one-liners' re. 350 yd DG PBR, quarter mile DG shooting etc. but these are 'lah lah land' one-liners. If the conversation is serious, we are discussing 150 yd. And this is a fact. And it is not unrealistic. Folks who have not hunted in Africa would be surprised how often shots are taken way past 150 yd, including on buffalo. And I hasten to say that I am not arguing in favor of it, and I have the video to prove that my personal preference for buff hunting is different ;-) but, come on!, 150 yd shots probably account for at least half the buffs taken in Africa, I would venture to guess... At the very least, most of those taken in open space, as opposed to the dense bush.

Of course the argument will be that the .375 H&H kills buffs fine at 150 yd. This is absolutely correct. Heck, the mighty .375 H&H carries about 3,000 ft/lbs of energy at 150 yd. This happens to be just about what the 9.3x62 delivers at 50 yd, and there were likely more buffs killed with the cheap Mauser 9.3 by local settlers (Afrikaners, Germans and Britishers) who could afford it, than there were with the .375 H&H of wealthy tourists. But judging by so many outfitters promotional reels on You Tube, 150 yd / .375 H&H buffs tend to degenerate into long running gun battles... At 150 yd, the good old .375 does not pack the punch that it does at 50 yd. Just plain obvious fact. Which is why so many pros agree that even though the .375 H&H may be 'the best all-around African caliber', if you are going to concentrate on dangerous game, you better get something bigger, like a .416, .458 etc. - or dare I say .378? - because, guess what?, these still carry the mail at 150 yd...

Which brings us very logically to the excellent point made by @Russ-F:

... perhaps it could be worth considering if any other cartridges (of any bore size) generally have a better effect on the DG target than the .378 WM for equal recoil (or the same effect for less recoil

What do we have in mind to deliver in term of trajectory and energy at 150 yd? .458 Lott/.450 Rigby? Good choices, but guess what? they recoil just about the same as the .378 Wby: 70 ft/lbs of free recoil in a 10 lbs gun for the Lott vs. the .378 Wby 71 ft/lbs. And don't think that they recoil slower either. I know, I shoot a .458 Lott (https://www.africahunting.com/media/cz-550-416-rigby-rifle-mauser-66-458-lott-rifle.61217/), and I have actually shot a .378 Wby: both guns' recoils are impressive! I would personally pick a .416 Rigby for open space buff, but do not delude yourself about its recoil either: 60 ft/lbs is still no pick-nick.

Here is my suggestion: go shoot a .378 Wby and a .458 Lott in succession. You will be surprised how, after all, the .378 Wby is not all that terrifying. Sure it is, when you transfer without experience or proper training from .270 Win to .378 Wby, but try to hand over a .458 Lott, or even a .416 Rigby (never mind a .500 Jeffery or .505 Gibbs that seem to enjoy a revival these days) to a .270 Win shooter, and observe the results LOL.

Not trying to be argumentative here, just bringing data and real world considerations to the chat... Yeah, the .378 kicks, and the scope better be waaaayyyy forward, but I like the idea of delivering 4,000 ft/lbs at 150 yd. Take your pick: .378 Wby (smaller/faster) or .458 Lott (bigger/slower) but whichever you pick (another fascinating debate?) be ready for the same 70 ft/lb of free recoil...

Best
Pascal

 

[Von S.]

Pascal,

As alwàys a fountain of reason and civility.

 

[Red Leg]

This is good. I agree.



This is even better. How not to agree.

These are very valid points to which I entirely agree, but, interestingly, these are not the points that I would use to define the cartridge. To me, the bottom line is best captured with these two sets of numbers (i.e. data):
.378 Wby 300 gr; velocity @ 150 yd: ~2,400 fps; energy at 150 yd: ~3,900 ft/lbs
.375 H&H 300 gr; velocity @ 50 yd: ~2,400 fps; energy at 50 yd: ~3,900 ft/lbs

So, in the real world: .378 Wby at 150 yd = .375 H&H at 50 yd.

Let's talk about that:

I do not find ridiculous the thought of shooting a buffalo at 150 yd in open space (e.g. Tanzania long grass; Zambezi Delta; etc.), and many do so, very ethically. My understanding from discussions with 3 different PHs (all duly licensed and members in good standing of PHASA, i.e. these are real PHs, not 'internet' PHs - wink wink), no later than 4 weeks ago, when I actually shot a buff with an open sighted .470 NE at ~30 yd (see video at https://www.africahunting.com/media...frican-safaris-in-limpopo-south-africa.69034/) is that 150 yd is in the real world a very common distance for buffalo, especially in open country, and especially toward the end of the season, and I can see a lot of good reasons why one would want to hit a buff as hard at 150 yd with a .378 Wby as a .375 H&H hits at 50 yd.

We can certainly all laugh at funny 'one-liners' re. 350 yd DG PBR, quarter mile DG shooting etc. but these are 'lah lah land' one-liners. If the conversation is serious, we are discussing 150 yd. And this is a fact. And it is not unrealistic. Folks who have not hunted in Africa would be surprised how often shots are taken way past 150 yd, including on buffalo. And I hasten to say that I am not arguing in favor of it, and I have the video to prove that my personal preference for buff hunting is different ;-) but, come on!, 150 yd shots probably account for at least half the buffs taken in Africa, I would venture to guess... At the very least, most of those taken in open space, as opposed to the dense bush.

Of course the argument will be that the .375 H&H kills buffs fine at 150 yd. This is absolutely correct. Heck, the mighty .375 H&H carries about 3,000 ft/lbs of energy at 150 yd. This happens to be just about what the 9.3x62 delivers at 50 yd, and there were likely more buffs killed with the cheap Mauser 9.3 by local settlers (Afrikaners, Germans and Britishers) who could afford it, than there were with the .375 H&H of wealthy tourists. But judging by so many outfitters promotional reels on You Tube, 150 yd / .375 H&H buffs tend to degenerate into long running gun battles... At 150 yd, the good old .375 does not pack the punch that it does at 50 yd. Just plain obvious fact. Which is why so many pros agree that even though the .375 H&H may be 'the best all-around African caliber', if you are going to concentrate on dangerous game, you better get something bigger, like a .416, .458 etc. - or dare I say .378? - because, guess what?, these still carry the mail at 150 yd...

Which brings us very logically to the excellent point made by @Russ-F:


What do we have in mind to deliver in term of trajectory and energy at 150 yd? .458 Lott/.450 Rigby? Good choices, but guess what? they recoil just about the same as the .378 Wby: 70 ft/lbs of free recoil in a 10 lbs gun for the Lott vs. the .378 Wby 71 ft/lbs. And don't think that they recoil slower either. I know, I shoot a .458 Lott (https://www.africahunting.com/media/cz-550-416-rigby-rifle-mauser-66-458-lott-rifle.61217/), and I have actually shot a .378 Wby: both guns' recoils are impressive! I would personally pick a .416 Rigby for open space buff, but do not delude yourself about its recoil either: 60 ft/lbs is still no pick-nick.

Here is my suggestion: go shoot a .378 Wby and a .458 Lott in succession. You will be surprised how, after all, the .378 Wby is not all that terrifying. Sure it is, when you transfer without experience or proper training from .270 Win to .378 Wby, but try to hand over a .458 Lott, or even a .416 Rigby (never mind a .500 Jeffery or .505 Gibbs that seem to enjoy a revival these days) to a .270 Win shooter, and observe the results LOL.

Not trying to be argumentative here, just bringing data and real world considerations to the chat... Yeah, the .378 kicks, and the scope better be waaaayyyy forward, but I like the idea of delivering 4,000 ft/lbs at 150 yd. Take your pick: .378 Wby (smaller/faster) or .458 Lott (bigger/slower) but whichever you pick (another fascinating debate?) be ready for the same 70 ft/lb of free recoil...

Best
Pascal

I have been to the Zambezi Delta where it is indeed possible to shoot a buffalo at 250 yards. We hunted them inside 100. The .375 works with monotonous efficiency in such conditions. I have yet to experience the long range running gun battle you suggest is so common. Perhaps your experiences are different. But heck, my major issue is with hunters, not calibers. Too many show up in Africa with an insufficient skill set for the firearm they are carrying. The more the recoil, the bigger the transition gap. A major advantage of the .375 is the easy transition from scoped deer rifle to scoped buffalo rifle. Finally, and as I noted previously, I loathe the design of Weatherby rifles and the Mark V action - at least with respect to a dangerous game rifle. I fully acknowledge that is purely a personal preference.

Finally, if it is one's first dangerous game hunt, I would suggest creating a sense of comfort and confidence with one's PH is not a misplaced effort. As I also noted earlier, fairly or unfairly, the Weatherby and its users have earned a less than stellar reputation in Africa. Probably something to do with misplaced applications of 4000 foot pounds of energy - but I digress. I would simply note, such a critical reception is an extra burden that most first-time buffalo slayers could easily do without, regardless of what math was theoretically concluded before arrival in camp.

The one thig that I am absolutely sure of is, that as a client, our first and most important responsibility is to put the first bullet exactly where it needs to go. Do that and everything that follows is positive - screw it up on dangerous game, and we are likely to have a lot more than a wounded animal on our conscious. Anything that potentially undermines the accuracy of that first shot should be considered very carefully indeed - regardless of how many foot pounds of energy it represents.

 

[IvW]

I have been to the Zambezi Delta where it is indeed possible to shoot a buffalo at 250 yards. We hunted them inside 100. The .375 works with monotonous efficiency in such conditions. I have yet to experience the long range running gun battle you suggest is so common. Perhaps your experiences are different. But heck, my major issue is with hunters, not calibers. Too many show up in Africa with an insufficient skill set for the firearm they are carrying. The more the recoil, the bigger the transition gap. A major advantage of the .375 is the easy transition from scoped deer rifle to scoped buffalo rifle. Finally, and as I noted previously, I loathe the design of Weatherby rifles and the Mark V action - at least with respect to a dangerous game rifle. I fully acknowledge that is purely a personal preference.

Finally, if it is one's first dangerous game hunt, I would suggest creating a sense of comfort and confidence with one's PH is not a misplaced effort. As I also noted earlier, fairly or unfairly, the Weatherby and its users have earned a less than stellar reputation in Africa. Probably something to do with misplaced applications of 4000 foot pounds of energy - but I digress. I would simply note, such a critical reception is an extra burden that most first-time buffalo slayers could easily do without, regardless of what math was theoretically concluded before arrival in camp.

The one thig that I am absolutely sure of is, that as a client, our first and most important responsibility is to put the first bullet exactly where it needs to go. Do that and everything that follows is positive - screw it up on dangerous game, and we are likely to have a lot more than a wounded animal on our conscious. Anything that potentially undermines the accuracy of that first shot should be considered very carefully indeed - regardless of how many foot pounds of energy it represents.

Very well said and the main point indeed. Make sure that whatever you use you can actually shoot, very very few can handle or shoot the 378 and 460 Weatherby with any degree of competence.

Most folks would be much better off with a caliber they can actually shoot and accurately hit what they are aiming at.

 

[IvW]

Yes, hahahaha, and it is all good indeed.

Our good friend IvW has a solid record of hating Weatherby (cartridges and rifles) and he must either have 75 years of experience reportedly backing as a pro an endless string of Weatherby-armed, exclusively inept or particularly unlucky clients all unhappy owners of variously defective Mark V, or he is the unluckiest man on earth when it comes to Weatherby because he reportedly has seen by himself more Weatherby failures than the entire rest of all of us put together. He also has a unique expertise about the Mark V as demonstrated in some of his writings, espescially the one who have undergone home-gunsmithing treatment...

I read somewhere that "Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit" said to mean that sarcasm is unkind and not very funny.

Yes, I have seen my fair share of issues with Weatherbys as well as the people who tried to use them.

Most just plain could not handle the recoil which always ends up bad for the animals being hunted as well as the rest of the hunting party(PH, game scouts, trackers..).

I did hunt with one client using a 340 Weatherby that could handle it and yes everything that he shot with it was basically DOI. However I have never seen anybody who can handle either the 378 WM or the 460 WM with any kind of competence. Yes sure there may be a few around who can handle them, I however have never seen one.

I have never said on here all Weatherby cartridges are crap neither have I said Weatherby actions are crap. What I have said is that 378 and 460 WM cartridges are both very poor choices for African DG and more so if that rifle happens to be a Weatherby rifle.

Yes I have seen Weatherby rifles go off when the bolt is closed and also seen them go off when the safety is disengaged and then the issue I had with my own Weatherby action that I elaborated on in a different post.

Sure you can ridicule me for using the wrong terminology at the time(thankfully corrected by somebody who has more knowledge than me with regards to Weatherby actions) however the fact remains that if that allen screw is loose then the rifle does not function as intended and is in fact dangerous to use.

Sadly, another interesting discussion going down the drain of individual egos. Too bad really...


And let us use our brains in these discussions: for example while superficially @IvW makes a great book point when he says "The same 500 gr solid from 450 Rigby @2300 fps will out penetrate the same bullet from a 460 Wby @ 2700 fps" the idea is correct on the face of it, except that the 500 gr .460 Wby does not start at 2700 fps but at 2600 fps (why exaggerate?), and at 100 yd - which is where it is intended to strike - the .460 Wby is down to 2300 fps, which - oh surprise! - happens to be the initial velocity of the .450 Rigby. So, what do we actually have? .460 Wby at 150 yd = .450 Rigby at 50 yd.......... my, my, my ! LOL
And that has always been the entire point of the Weatherby cartridges; and the entire point @Von S. is making; and that is what I meant in my rhetorical question: so why is the .450 Rigby so good and the .460 Wby so bad? I obviously meant: each in its own application, but maybe I should have not assumed that this was implied...

At least it appears we agree on one point.

So, there is really no need for @IvW to be disrespectful to @Von S. I am sure many of us know hunters 75 years of age (heck, I hope to be one in a short 15 year!), so a 67 year hunting career is not all that uncommon nowadays, and it is quite possible to have never lost an animal. I do not fall personally in this happy category, but it does not mean that it does not exist...

I was not trying to be disrespectful but when somebody makes a bold statement such as that I cannot believe it, simple as that.

Well the only way that is remotely possible I guess is if you have hunted very few animals in that 67 years otherwise it is still my opinion that it is:


If that is taken as disrespectful, ask admin to remove the smiley!

As to calls for "proofs" if they are made, they should be made both ways: for example, as much as it would be interesting to know with which outfitters @Von S. hunted, it would also be interesting to know the PH license number of @IvW and for which African outfitters he guided; or maybe - and that could be a more appropriate request - maybe both of them could post a few pictures of their DG hunts, etc. etc.

Just because @Von S. is new to the forum does not mean he is not credible, and just because @IvW has been a very prolific (and quite opinionated) blogger on africahunting.com does not mean that he is credible as relates to his actual hunting experience (vs. theoretical knowledge) etc. etc.

I certainly did not join this forum to boast about my hunting career, dish out PH numbers and outfits I have and still work for or post pictures of DG game I hunted with clients over the years etc.

I found this to be a very informative forum and the best one out there with regards to hunting, in particularly Africa and feel I can make a positive contribution.

I do have 44 years hunting (27 years as a Professional Hunter) as well as 23 years as a DG foot safari guide experience and I am happy to share my knowledge and personal experiences.

Yes opinions regarding topics may differ and we will never all agree that x is better than y and sometimes things may come across slightly different than exactly what is said but that all makes for interesting conversation and allows individuals to make up their own minds.

Perhaps the way I say things are a bit too straight forward to the liking of some but it is the way it is.

You can call me what you like, internet PH or whatever you fancy as a name, and you most certainly can make your own assumptions with regards to somebody you know nothing about, I have nothing to prove with regards to that, I know the extent of my hunting career and what I have and have not done.

If anything I said here offends anybody I apologise as that is not my intention. If you still feel offended you are welcome to PM me.

Thankfully the OP made an excellent choice and yes I do not like 378 WM or 460 WM rifles and I do not recommend there use on African DG.

For some of the smaller Weatherby cartridges, yes there use for them and some actually make sense.

I am currently still contemplating converting my one 375 H&H to AI which for all practical purposes is the same as a 375 WM.

All the best.