.375 or .416 for Cape buffalo?

[BeeMaa]

I love my Z8. My only complaint is the size of the eyepiece. It is large enough to cause bolt interference on some rifles with the low mounts I prefer. I wish Swaro could get their eye piece diameter down to that of the Leupold VX6.

Yes that's true. You can see on my Dakota Model 10 how you wouldn't want to run it further back in the rings. It gets in the way of loading...but make your first shot count!

Sounds like you guys need to switch to a Blaser R8 for zero scope/bolt interference!

@Green Chile - The fiddleback stocks on your rifles are amazing. They look like they are from the same tree.

 

[Green Chile]

Sounds like you guys need to switch to a Blaser R8 for zero scope/bolt interference!

@Green Chile - The fiddleback stocks on your rifles are amazing. They look like they are from the same tree.

Funny you should say that about the R8 and I blame you partially for this...I spent part of a day this week reading everything I could find on the R8 on this forum. I've thought about selling a few guns to get into the R8 with several barrels. We'll see.

Thanks for the compliments on the Dakotas. I just got lucky on that. The model 10 is brand new and the 76 has many safari's under its belt but I just got both of them from 2 different sources. They look like they were built to match almost.

 

[IvW]

Sorry to de-rail the thread but what speed is your 404? The 'old' 2150fps or the 'new' 2400fps with a 400gn?
I'm loading my 425 Express (300WM necked up to .423") to an easy 2300fps...

Cheers,

Russ

2300 fps is the ultimate killing speed for any DG caliber using a heavy for caliber bullet ideally with a SD of .330......that is my target for 375 H&H and up....
I am not a part of the light weight high speed gang.....

 

[IvW]

If you look back in history you will find that all succesful calibers in Africa are the ones that use high SD bullets all double rifle cartidges trot along at 2150fps at best.....even the 458WM which I hate is succesful due to SD not velocity....so if you match the high SD to the velocity of 2200 fps to 2400 fps you have a very effective DG combinatiin forget about mv and energy.....rather look at SD and velocity of above....anything over 2400fps is just added recoil, muzzle blast and deflective bullets.....

Excess velocity also decreases penetration.....

 

[benchracer]

Standard 375 H&H 300gr is just too fast for dg...going up in bullet weight increasing sd and lowering velocity puts it in a different class for dg....aĺlthough it is the King of the medium bores as it sits.....

This is a really interesting comment. It is contrary to my prior understanding of 375 H&H ballistics and caused me to do a fairly deep dive looking for more information. After finding said information, I have drawn the conclusion that this subject deserves to be re-visited in a separate thread.

In my search for information, I stumbled across several hours worth of interviews with Kevin Robertson in which he gave some pretty detailed explanations of preferred velocity bands for various cartridges in the context of hunting in Africa and why those velocity bands are so effective.

The above comment proved to be very educational. Thank you for that!

 

[Green Chile]

Where can you find those interviews with Kevin? Was it the big game hunting podcast with John? I was driving today and listening to some of those podcasts with him on elephant conservation and various other topics. He referenced 375's being too fast of a twist on very close shots with 300's. He said it takes 20-30 meters for them to stabilize and had numerous field examples to prove his point.

As a possible proof of Kevin's thoughts, my two close range shots with 375 H&H and 300 TSX on croc spine did not exit.

 

[benchracer]

Where can you find those interviews with Kevin? Was it the big game hunting podcast with John? I was driving today and listening to some of those podcasts with him on elephant conservation and various other topics. He referenced 375's being too fast of a twist on very close shots with 300's. He said it takes 20-30 meters for them to stabilize and had numerous field examples to prove his point.

As a possible proof of Kevin's thoughts, my two close range shots with 375 H&H and 300 TSX on croc spine did not exit.

Yes it was. I stumbled across some of the interviews posted on youtube. The ones I found of particular interest were:

Classic Africa Hunting Cartridges
Africa Hunting Bullets 101
Africa Hunting Rifles 101
Cape Buffalo Hunting 101
Leopard Hunting 101

I have been previously aware of Kevin Robertson for many years, but had never really listened to him speak at length. Listening to him speak has me thinking I should consider adding his books to my library. I learned a LOT from what he had to say.

For Cape Buffalo, Kevin Robertson is an advocate of 350 grain bullets for the 375 H&H (but advises AGAINST the Barnes 350 TSX). The problem with that advice, as I see it, is that there doesn't seem to be much currently available in that weight range for 375's.

Prior to listening to him, I had been under the impression that the old advice regarding soft points and solids (that the first shot on a Cape Buffalo should be a soft point and subsequent shots should be solids) had been made obsolete by the introduction of higher quality bullets. I had been thinking that a single load consisting of 300 gr Swift A-Frames would suffice for all purposes. After listening to him, I am reevaluating that line of thought. If big cats are part of the plan, a third ammunition type is also called for (lighter, quick opening bullets at higher velocity).

 

[Green Chile]

Let me do you a favor by saying you DEFINITELY need Kevin's books. Whether it's Perfect Shot (1 or 2), Africa's Most Dangerous (my fav of his books) or the very entertaining It Shouldn't Happen, you would refer to them often. I have Africa's Most Dangerous in a short pile and refer to it often, whether it's about bullets, recoil tables or many other topics.

 

[Green Chile]

350 grain .375 are only found in the TSX, apart from the random box of old Woodleighs or the African bullet selection that are not imported here (yet). I know some don't like TSX but many PHs do. My PH said it was his fav buffalo bullet along with A-frames. What's wrong with bumping up to a 350 TSX? My 300 TSX on a buffalo frontal shot killed within seconds and penetrated 4 feet, which is excellent. SD on the 350 grain TSX is .356, which is excellent AND they are available. I will have to keep researching the subject but it might be the only super heavyweight .375 options consistently available in the States at this time.

 

[358 Norma]

350 grain .375 are only found in the TSX, apart from the random box of old Woodleighs or the African bullet selection that are not imported here (yet). I know some don't like TSX but many PHs do. My PH said it was his fav buffalo bullet along with A-frames. What's wrong with bumping up to a 350 TSX? My 300 TSX on a buffalo frontal shot killed within seconds and penetrated 4 feet, which is excellent. SD on the 350 grain TSX is .356, which is excellent AND they are available. I will have to keep researching the subject but it might be the only super heavyweight .375 options consistently available in the States at this time.

For what I understand is that the 350 grain TSX doesn't open any more than the 300 grain and tends to over penetrate risking wounding another buffalo in a herd! I don't speak from experience just repeating what the good doctor said!

 

[Green Chile]

Found this post here on the forums related to the 350 TSX from SRvet...

"Based entirely on my understanding of Kevin Robertson’s excellent work, the 350 grain bullets become more effective than the 300 grain variety because the permanent wound cavity tends to be 3x the diameter of the expanded projectile. The 350 grain weldcores expand to a greater diameter than the 300 grain weldcores so create a larger wound channel which causes more blood out and more air in. I understand that this rule of thumb holds for many bullet designs but the Barnes TSX is an outlier because due to the depth of the hollow point being similar between the 300 and the 350 grainer the expanded diameter and therefore the dimensions of the permanent wound channel remains the same. This being the case the 350 grain TSX doesn’t offer the same increase in performance that other heavy for calibre offerings gives. Just my interpretation of Doctari’s words…."

 

[Red Leg]

Yes it was. I stumbled across some of the interviews posted on youtube. The ones I found of particular interest were:

Classic Africa Hunting Cartridges
Africa Hunting Bullets 101
Africa Hunting Rifles 101
Cape Buffalo Hunting 101
Leopard Hunting 101

I have been previously aware of Kevin Robertson for many years, but had never really listened to him speak at length. Listening to him speak has me thinking I should consider adding his books to my library. I learned a LOT from what he had to say.

For Cape Buffalo, Kevin Robertson is an advocate of 350 grain bullets for the 375 H&H (but advises AGAINST the Barnes 350 TSX). The problem with that advice, as I see it, is that there doesn't seem to be much currently available in that weight range for 375's.

Prior to listening to him, I had been under the impression that the old advice regarding soft points and solids (that the first shot on a Cape Buffalo should be a soft point and subsequent shots should be solids) had been made obsolete by the introduction of higher quality bullets. I had been thinking that a single load consisting of 300 gr Swift A-Frames would suffice for all purposes. After listening to him, I am reevaluating that line of thought. If big cats are part of the plan, a third ammunition type is also called for (lighter, quick opening bullets at higher velocity).

A client will be fine with the 300 gr A-Frame on buffalo or lion. I fully understand the logic of 50 more grs of weight in a .375 load for buff, but it has never seemed necessary to me - particularly with a modern design like the A-Frame. It is my go to round and anytime I am approaching a cape buffalo, I will have one in the chamber, a magazine full, and more on my belt. All that said, if you can locate a quality 350 gr SP then by all means use it.

 

[benchracer]

A client will be fine with the 300 gr A-Frame on buffalo or lion. I fully understand the logic of 50 more grs of weight in a .375 load for buff, but it has never seemed necessary to me - particularly with a modern design like the A-Frame. It is my go to round and anytime I am approaching a cape buffalo, I will have one in the chamber, a magazine full, and more on my belt. All that said, if you can locate a quality 350 gr SP then by all means use it.

I have not changed my mind about carrying the 300 A-Frames as my bullet of first choice. The real change of thought process for me is that I will also carry solids for follow up when I am able to go in pursuit of Cape Buffalo.

If I were pursuing Leopard, it would be 300 A-Frames and something lighter, faster, and more frangible.

That is, more or less, my takeaway from listening to Kevin Robertson. Though I am certainly open to the idea of 350 grain bullets in the 375 H&H, availability of such bullets would need to improve in order for me to consider going that route. Given current geopolitical circumstances, I don't expect that to happen any time soon.

 

[Green Chile]

Agreed. I have lots of 300 grain TSX, A-frames, etc on hand. I would try a 350 sometime but I also enjoy shooting 416's, 500's, etc so I'm not hurting for horsepower.

 

[BeeMaa]

@Green Chile - Norma offers factory loaded Oryx bullet in 350 grain 375H&H but as of recently I've had a hard time finding them. If you reload, there are options from a number of companies like Barnes, CEB and Rhino for bullets all the way up to 380 grains.

Personally, I do not reload and agree with @Red Leg about not needing anything more than a 300 grain 375H&H premium bullet as a client.

 

[Eduard_Venter]

I've hunted 8 cape buffalo with my hunters for the month. 7 has been shot with 375 and 300gr Barnes. It works.

 

[Daisy]

It “seems” to me that heavier for caliber was more important before premium monometal bullets.

 

[Red Leg]

It “seems” to me that heavier for caliber was more important before premium monometal bullets.

The A-Frame is not a monometal bullet.

 

[Daisy]

The A-Frame is not a monometal bullet.

I know. Was in response to using 350 Barnes over 300.

I could probably say premium also.

Michael with raptor bullets actually likes smaller than caliber running fast, which is different than larger running slower. He has harvested 100’s of buffalo with this combo.

I should also say lighter or heavier rather than smaller or larger.

 

[Doubleplay]

I have not changed my mind about carrying the 300 A-Frames as my bullet of first choice. The real change of thought process for me is that I will also carry solids for follow up when I am able to go in pursuit of Cape Buffalo.

If I were pursuing Leopard, it would be 300 A-Frames and something lighter, faster, and more frangible.

That is, more or less, my takeaway from listening to Kevin Robertson. Though I am certainly open to the idea of 350 grain bullets in the 375 H&H, availability of such bullets would need to improve in order for me to consider going that route. Given current geopolitical circumstances, I don't expect that to happen any time soon.

There's no need to shoot a Leopard with a 375 H&H or with 300 grain bullets.