375 H&H vs 300 H&H

[Bonk]

I've never understood the concern over trajectory. What advantage does a "flat" shooting rifle/caliber combo have over one that has more of an arc. If both are properly sighted in then both bullets will arrive at the same POI. The fact one took a shorter route means nothing except it will have arrived a millisecond sooner. If you look at the trajectories of various calibers at normal hunting distances the difference is minimal. Usually just a few inches. I'll ask again, what difference does the arc make as long as both bullets get to the same place at essentially the same time? Especially when one is still carrying noticeably more energy.

Somebody is going to try and make the case that you 'need' a flat shooting rifle to hunt long distance. Why? The bison population in the United States was practically wiped out by people shooting very large caliber rifles with big rainbow trajectories at really long distances (500-1000 yards and more). I would argue that a lot more bison would remain if those hunters were using light 'flat' shooting rifles because the light caliber rifles can't deliver enough energy at 1000 yards to kill a bison.

Sight in your rifle/caliber of choice at the distance you intend to shoot and have at it. The trajectory has no bearing on the matter as long as you can hit what you're aiming at and deliver enough energy to get the job done.

 

[Wyatt Smith]

I agree with @Bonk however a flatter trajectory does make it easier to hit things at different ranges with the same scope setting, which I feel is what most hunters do.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

With the advent of the laser rangefinder, drop really shouldn’t be a problem. A flatter trajectory gives you more margin for error if you are estimating distances. I don’t shoot at distances where it matters.

A shorter time of flight means less wind drift. Wind is a whole lot more of a challenge than is range. Again, not important to me- I don’t hunt at long distances. I think to ethically hunt at distances where it really matters, a person should have enough experience that questions of ballistics are long in the past

 

[Mtn_Infantry]

The 375 has an advantage only against brown bear. For everything else the 300 is the clear winner. 300 shoots flatter, has enough energy, and recoils less. For long range it isn't even close because of the superior 308 bullets.

Having 2 Pre-64 70’s in 300H&H and a Pre-64 70 in 375H&H, I’d disagree and say the recoil from the 300’s is worse than the recoil from the 375. Might just be the guns I’ve got but that’s been my experience with multiple 300H&H’s.

 

[Forrest Halley]

1 in 10

This one also handles 380gr Rhinos with no issues

SD .274
BC .45
270 gr Rhino

Max I need is 330 yards

CEB has a 350 grain tipped hollow point that retains 300+ grains after expansion. Features a G1 BC of .860. What could you get for an MV with a 350 grain bullet?

 

[NE 7x57]

With the advent of the laser rangefinder, drop really shouldn’t be a problem. A flatter trajectory gives you more margin for error if you are estimating distances. I don’t shoot at distances where it matters.

A shorter time of flight means less wind drift. Wind is a whole lot more of a challenge than is range. Again, not important to me- I don’t hunt at long distances. I think to ethically hunt at distances where it really matters, a person should have enough experience that questions of ballistics are long in the past

I agree, in this day and age with the rangefinders we have and the reticles available in various scopes drop is pretty easy to allow for. A while back I was out shooting with some friends and the wife of one of them took my 7.62x39 AR out to 475 yards. It has a legit rainbow trajectory yet she hit steel on the first try because she knew what the drop would be at that range.

Wind drift is an all together different creature and is much more difficult to allow for.

 

[Newboomer]

I agree, in this day and age with the rangefinders we have and the reticles available in various scopes drop is pretty easy to allow for. A while back I was out shooting with some friends and the wife of one of them took my 7.62x39 AR out to 475 yards. It has a legit rainbow trajectory yet she hit steel on the first try because she knew what the drop would be at that range.

Wind drift is an all together different creature and is much more difficult to allow for.

Forget the cross county sniping, be a hunter and stalk to an effective realistic range under 300 yds.

 

[One Day...]

MPBR or BDC...
(Main Point Blank Range or Bullet Drop Compensation)

Interestingly, we are on the same path IvW, with a few twists, but with the same overall objective, and considering that a 300 gr .375 H&H sighted at 100 yards for DG has a 17" drop at 300 yards (and already 27" at 350 yards - after 300 yards it drops like a rock), just getting within 300 yards is often not good enough on small or even medium size PG.

On my traveling hunter's end, there is only one rifle (one barrel actually on the R8) but two different scopes, and the heavy weight bullets are the 350 gr Woodleigh FMJ / RNSN pair (the 380 gr Rhino are hard to find in the US).

The DG scope is a Leica 1-6x24, generally used at 1x to maybe 3x and zeroed with the 350 gr slugs, and the PG scope is a Leica 2.5-10x42 used at whatever magnification makes sense at the time and zeroed with the lighter slugs.

The Main Point Blank Range (MPBR) route

Provided you do not need one load only in the .375 H&H to do it all (the ubiquitous 300 gr), then the logic is to go as practically heavy as you can on one end for DG (380 gr Rhino is a great option), and as practically light and flat shooting as you can on the other end for PG. I would say 250 gr TTSX or .235 gr TSX (equivalent Rhino?). Sure, the sectional densities are lower, but for PG they will do just fine...

The way I went is actually a bit different.

The Bullet Drop Compensation (BDC) route

Flat shooting and long MPBR were, and still are, required with fixed adjustment scopes, but my thinking was that since I will laser range the distance anyway, why not remove the trajectory drop of the equation by using a scope with an external bullet drop compensation (BDC) turret calibrated in meters or yards to the load clocked in my rifle. When I click 330 on the scope, it does not matter what the drop is anymore...

This is not sniping because I still will not fire on unwounded animals past 300 yards, but it makes the shooting as simple as the laser range finder has made evaluating the distance...

In the US, Kenton Industries will engrave a custom turret for your load for $120 in 2 weeks for most recent scopes in the market https://kentonindustries.com/category/custom-turrets

I did this and the added bonus is that I can continue to use the pair of 300 gr TSX (great penetration in buff) - you will likely use the Rhino equivalent since you do not like the TSX - and 300 gr Nosler Partition (better immediate expansion in cats). The scope is zeroed at 100 and I just click the distance after laser ranging it. No more worries about flat shooting, holding up, etc. I just put the crosshair where I want to hit, whether the load is flat shooting or not has become irrelevant...


PS: BDC turrets are of course different from MOA or MIL turrets for which you need to convert the distance in MOA or MIL clicks. BDC turret simply show the distance (hence the need to use one dedicated to the load). Using MOA or MIL turrets in hunting on the fly is way more cumbersome than many think, you need a ballistic table on hand and it takes time, but using BDC turrets is as simple as clicking the turret to the distance... Sure, they are engraved a full turn way past practical/ethical hunting shot distance, but you can ignore any engraving past your self-imposed maximum ethical hunting shot distance.

 

[Hunter-Habib]

IvW , I like your idea of setting up your two .375 Holland & Holland Magnums up for two different applications . I’ve taken some shots at Eland out to 250 yards , by using 270 Gr Remington Core Lokt soft points in a .375 Holland & Holland Magnum . Just like you , my favorite .375 is also the original pre ‘73 BRNO ZKK602 with the folding diopter .

I’m new here so I’m not completely familiar with everyone yet . Among your 17 firearms , do you already own any .30 caliber rifles ? Like a .30-06 Springfield or .300 Winchester Magnum ? I honestly wouldn’t bother with rebarreling an original BRNO ZKK602 to .300 Holland & Holland Magnum . These rifles are getting very rare , as days go by .

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I don’t think a 300 will be enough of a step up in performance from the 7x57 to worry about, especially since you would be converting a good 375.

@Wyatt Smith
The 300 is a major step up from the 7mm Mauser. It's like saying it's not much of a step up from a 7mm-08 to a 300wm.
Yes it may be a pain in the arse to put a 300 H&H barrel on because of the laws but he would end up with 3 great classic calibers. A 7x57 as well as a 300 and 375 H&Hs, what more could a man ask for . Ah yes a 404 or a 416 Rigby.
Bob

 

[Viral_SIGness]

I would convert to .300 Win Mag or PRC. Then if you ever wanted to play with the super heavies, you have plenty of room in the magazine for long those long bullets.

 

[375er]

Just get a good, accurate load in 270 grains and be done with it. Heading to Namibia for plains game and will be shooting 270 gr. SAF. I can see it is down.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

MPBR or BDC...
(Main Point Blank Range or Bullet Drop Compensation)

Interestingly, we are on the same path IvW, with a few twists, but with the same overall objective, and considering that a 300 gr .375 H&H sighted at 100 yards for DG has a 17" drop at 300 yards (and already 27" at 350 yards - after 300 yards it drops like a rock), just getting within 300 yards is often not good enough on small or even medium size PG.

On my traveling hunter's end, there is only one rifle (one barrel actually on the R8) but two different scopes, and the heavy weight bullets are the 350 gr Woodleigh FMJ / RNSN pair (the 380 gr Rhino are hard to find in the US).

The DG scope is a Leica 1-6x24, generally used at 1x to maybe 3x and zeroed with the 350 gr slugs, and the PG scope is a Leica 2.5-10x42 used at whatever magnification makes sense at the time and zeroed with the lighter slugs.

The Main Point Blank Range (MPBR) route

Provided you do not need one load only in the .375 H&H to do it all (the ubiquitous 300 gr), then the logic is to go as practically heavy as you can on one end for DG (380 gr Rhino is a great option), and as practically light and flat shooting as you can on the other end for PG. I would say 250 gr TTSX or .235 gr TSX (equivalent Rhino?). Sure, the sectional densities are lower, but for PG they will do just fine...

The way I went is actually a bit different.

The Bullet Drop Compensation (BDC) route

Flat shooting and long MPBR were, and still are, required with fixed adjustment scopes, but my thinking was that since I will laser range the distance anyway, why not remove the trajectory drop of the equation by using a scope with an external bullet drop compensation (BDC) turret calibrated in meters or yards to the load clocked in my rifle. When I click 330 on the scope, it does not matter what the drop is anymore...

This is not sniping because I still will not fire on unwounded animals past 300 yards, but it makes the shooting as simple as the laser range finder has made evaluating the distance...

In the US, Kenton Industries will engrave a custom turret for your load for $120 in 2 weeks for most recent scopes in the market https://kentonindustries.com/category/custom-turrets

I did this and the added bonus is that I can continue to use the pair of 300 gr TSX (great penetration in buff) - you will likely use the Rhino equivalent since you do not like the TSX - and 300 gr Nosler Partition (better immediate expansion in cats). The scope is zeroed at 100 and I just click the distance after laser ranging it. No more worries about flat shooting, holding up, etc. I just put the crosshair where I want to hit, whether the load is flat shooting or not has become irrelevant...


PS: BDC turrets are of course different from MOA or MIL turrets for which you need to convert the distance in MOA or MIL clicks. BDC turret simply show the distance (hence the need to use one dedicated to the load). Using MOA or MIL turrets in hunting on the fly is way more cumbersome than many think, you need a ballistic table on hand and it takes time, but using BDC turrets is as simple as clicking the turret to the distance... Sure, they are engraved a full turn way past practical/ethical hunting shot distance, but you can ignore any engraving past your self-imposed maximum ethical hunting shot distance.

@One Day...
Call me strange I sight all my rifles to what I deem my MPBR (maximum point blank range). All my medium/large game rifles are sighted at 2.5 inches high at 100 yards. This puts them spot on at 240 to 270 yards depending on caliber and projectiles.
My 25 with 100gn ttsx 2.5 high at 100 is spot on at 275 a bit low at 300 and 8 inches low at 400.
My 35 with 225 accubond 2.5 high at 100 is spot on at around 245 and about 5 inches low at 300. A backing hold on game like red deer makes it fine out to 400 yards.
I like the kiss principle. Sight rifle in hold on game pull trigger and go pick up game. No fancy turrets or bdc stadia to clutter things up. Get to know your loads and rifle and go hunting. If in doubt stalk closer.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I have a Win 70 375HH. I've taken springbok out to 275 yds using Barnes 235gr TSX. 200yd zero. Pretty small target at that range and no problem. A 375 HH is good for 300 yd plus.

@Newboomer
Had the same shot on my impala with the Whelen and 225gn accubond. It was ridiculously easy. Sighted in 2.5 inches high at 100 with about a 240 yard zero.
Bob

 

[1dirthawker]

I basically want to find out how many folks use a 375 H&H out to 300 yard max for hunting. Not which caliber is flatter shooting out to who knows where..

i shoot my 375 ruger to 300+ yards. i use 300 gr projectiles, but the 270gr is likely a better choice for longer shooting

 

[One Day...]

@One Day...
Call me strange I sight all my rifles to what I deem my MPBR (maximum point blank range). All my medium/large game rifles are sighted at 2.5 inches high at 100 yards. This puts them spot on at 240 to 270 yards depending on caliber and projectiles.
My 25 with 100gn ttsx 2.5 high at 100 is spot on at 275 a bit low at 300 and 8 inches low at 400.
My 35 with 225 accubond 2.5 high at 100 is spot on at around 245 and about 5 inches low at 300. A backing hold on game like red deer makes it fine out to 400 yards.
I like the kiss principle. Sight rifle in hold on game pull trigger and go pick up game. No fancy turrets or bdc stadia to clutter things up. Get to know your loads and rifle and go hunting. If in doubt stalk closer.
Bob

This is indeed what I did for 40 years Bob, and I still do it with a dozen rifles on which I have scopes older than the last few I bought to go on my Blaser barrels. Nothing wrong with that

The limitations of the MPBR is when small animals (e.g. Duiker) are on the menu, or shots longer than the MPBR - especially on not too big animals - are the only ones you get. Mountain hunting for Vaal Rhebok, Mountain Reebuck, Chamois, etc. come to mind...

Since I made a concession to modernity when I moved from judging the distance by bracketing the animal in the reticle, to a laser range finder, I recently made the next concession which is to use this distance information with a scope with reliable BDC turret as became available in the last few years.

Contrarily to what you may think, there is nothing more simple than turning the turret to the measured distance (it takes about 1 second) and I find actually MUCH simpler to simply put the crosshair where I want the bullet, rather than guesstimate the hold high or low on small animals due to the 6" vital area used for the MPBR, or hold over on distant ones

Try it, you will be surprised how nice it is... I was... This is as KISS as it gets

I will not replace my existing older scopes, but I think that I am now unlikely to buy scopes that do not allow this. My current favorite cost/quality/usable-characteristics are the Zeiss V4 with so-called "external elevation turret", as I do not see the point in the twice more expensive V6 or thrice more expensive budget-killing V8: neither the 6x or 8x zoom range or 2% more in light transmission above 90% will change my life enough to justify paying twice or three times as much, and God bless those who have no budget limitation. My spare $$$ are better used for an annual safari

 

[rookhawk]

Here is the senario.
I own 2 375 H&H rifle both on Brno ZKK 602 actions with pop up peep sights in the receiver.
Converting one to 300 H&H will be a pain in the arse.....

I am thinking using the original one with longer barrel with 270gr premium bullets in 270gr for longer range work(2700fps) max 300 meters and the custom 24" barrel one with 340gr bullets(2300fps) for bushveldt hunting.....

Bear in mind I eat what I hunt and with our stringent gun laws rebarreling to 300 H&H as mentioned will be apain in the arse...

This will be for larger pg species and for the smaller ones I will stick to 7x57mm...

@IvW ive owned 300HH rifles and I enjoyed it as a cartridge. It was formidable on animals up to giraffe even though it was literally the legal bare minimum. It’s a nice caliber.

However, for 300 yard work and under, a good 375HH even with 300gr bullets is plenty flat shooting. I’m not sure you’re getting anything by having two guns as described at present or even bartering one away to get a 300HH.

understanding the legal difficulties of rebarreling and also understanding how desirable your two guns are, I’d keep the one you like best and barter the other for a 602 in 7x57, 7x64, 280 rem, or 7mm mag. Then you’d have two totally different guns for different applications whereas the 300HH is sort of inferior to both a 375HH and a 7mm because it has neither the power, nor the flat range of the former and latter.

Just my thoughts having owned all of the above.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

This is indeed what I did for 40 years Bob, and I still do it with a dozen rifles on which I have scopes older than the last few I bought to go on my Blaser barrels. Nothing wrong with that

The limitations of the MPBR is when small animals (e.g. Duiker) are on the menu, or shots longer than the MPBR - especially on not too big animals - are the only ones you get. Mountain hunting for Vaal Rhebok, Mountain Reebuck, Chamois, etc. come to mind...

Since I made a concession to modernity when I moved from judging the distance by bracketing the animal in the reticle, to a laser range finder, I recently made the next concession which is to use this distance information with a scope with reliable BDC turret as became available in the last few years.

Contrarily to what you may think, there is nothing more simple than turning the turret to the measured distance (it takes about 1 second) and I find actually MUCH simpler to simply put the crosshair where I want the bullet, rather than guesstimate the hold high or low on small animals due to the 6" vital area used for the MPBR, or hold over on distant ones

Try it, you will be surprised how nice it is... I was... This is as KISS as it gets

I will not replace my existing older scopes, but I think that I am now unlikely to buy scopes that do not allow this. My current favorite cost/quality/usable-characteristics are the Zeiss V4 with so-called "external elevation turret", as I do not see the point in the twice more expensive V6 or thrice more expensive budget-killing V8: neither the 6x or 8x zoom range or 2% more in light transmission above 90% will change my life enough to justify paying twice or three times as much, and God bless those who have no budget limitation. My spare $$$ are better used for an annual safari

@One Day...
Sounds good to me. On the game you mentioned with my 25 I hold dead centre out to 350 yards. Out to that range the bullet is only a bit over 2.5 inches high max and about 3 inches low to 350. If it's further out than that a backing hold will take care of things out to around 450 which is further than I care to shoot if I can avoid it. I try to limit my shot to 300 max preferably less but it's nice to know both the rifle and I are fine to 450 if all goes well.
Bob

 

[Mauser78]

Drop chart for 230gr Peregrine with velocity and energy up to 500yards.

 

[Mauser78]