35 Whelen vs 9.3x62

[bruce moulds]

bob,
no one thinks the manbun is a flat shooter.
and it never will be.
it was designed purely as a low recoil longer range paper puncher for sling shooters.
the fact that people have translated that into their pea brains as being a decent hunting cartridge is testament only to human tendancies.
on the other hand, for a bigger bore cartridge to do similar trajectories with real killing power is a different thing altogether.
bruce.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

bob,
no one thinks the manbun is a flat shooter.
and it never will be.
it was designed purely as a low recoil longer range paper puncher for sling shooters.
the fact that people have translated that into their pea brains as being a decent hunting cartridge is testament only to human tendancies.
on the other hand, for a bigger bore cartridge to do similar trajectories with real killing power is a different thing altogether.
bruce.

@bruce moulds
Well If'n the man Bun don't shoot flat what use is it on targets there is heaps better around.
Try a 200 yard fly shoot with a 22 rimfire. Low recoil, cheap ammo and not easy plus can be done at any range wolith 200 yard zone.
Bob

 

[bruce moulds]

bob,
you don't need flat trajectory for long range targets at known distances.
low recoil, sheer accuracy, and the ability to minimize wind deflection are what you need.
the manbun has this in spades, but has short point blank range and low energy and velocity, giving terminal ballistic problems for hunting.
bruce.

 

[sestoppelman]

I think if we can agree that powder capacity rules the day, then while the difference is small between the two, the larger capacity still wins if both are loaded to max in similar platforms with similar loads, same bullet weight, pressure etc. It cannot be otherwise.
And if the .35 Whelen can nip at the heels of the .375 magnum, well then load them both ups to max, and throw in the .338 win mag too and see who wins.
I used to consider myself a fairly adventurous reloader, but well, not anymore, especially as compared to some,, LOL.
Get well soon Bob!

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I think if we can agree that powder capacity rules the day, then while the difference is small between the two, the larger capacity still wins if both are loaded to max in similar platforms with similar loads, same bullet weight, pressure etc. It cannot be otherwise.
And if the .35 Whelen can nip at the heels of the .375 magnum, well then load them both ups to max, and throw in the .338 win mag too and see who wins.
I used to consider myself a fairly adventurous reloader, but well, not anymore, especially as compared to some,, LOL.
Get well soon Bob!

@sestoppelman

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I think if we can agree that powder capacity rules the day, then while the difference is small between the two, the larger capacity still wins if both are loaded to max in similar platforms with similar loads, same bullet weight, pressure etc. It cannot be otherwise.
And if the .35 Whelen can nip at the heels of the .375 magnum, well then load them both ups to max, and throw in the .338 win mag too and see who wins.
I used to consider myself a fairly adventurous reloader, but well, not anymore, especially as compared to some,, LOL.
Get well soon Bob!

@sestoppelman
The 338 is already near max. The 375 could possibly have a boost.
The Whelen always needed to be loaded properly.

As,you can see this is from Sierra no6 manual for the 225 grain gameking. This give the 338 a horrible shake up without straining.
Yes the 338 will do better if you long throat it use a magnum length action and seat the projectiles out further. A lot of playing around in my book.
A 35 Whelen with 225 grainers @2900 to 2,950 fps gives close on 4,300 fps of muzzle energy and carries it a long way.
In the field you wouldn't see much difference between the 2.
Bob

 

[Clodo Ferreira]

Hello,

I can obtain almost those velocities with R15 in my 9,3x62 with 220 grs monometal FOX (Slovenian), and all 250 grs ones, TTSX, TSX, GMX and Nosler Accubond. NORMA, SAKO and REMINGTON cases with 200 and/or 250 CCI, and RWS (big letter=smaller capacity) with 1 less grs and Winchester LR primer. Safe near máximum loads.
For the record, my rifle, a BRNO ZKK 600 all original, has a long magazine, 88 mm lenght.
About the chamber designs,
1- The original CIP chamber for the 9,3x62 has a very long bullet free travel of 28 mm from the mouth of the neck to the begining of the lands.
2- The 35 Whelen chamber has a 10,21 mm in that dimension.

I make my cartridges from 86 to 87,5 mm O.A.L. So, my loads are:

FOX 220 grs 64 (RWS) and 65 (NORMA et al.) R15 for 2850 f/s
All 250 grs 62 (RWS) and 63 (NORMA et al.) R15 for 2650 f/s

Best!

CF

 

[sestoppelman]

@sestoppelman
The 338 is already near max. The 375 could possibly have a boost.
The Whelen always needed to be loaded properly.
View attachment 387818
As,you can see this is from Sierra no6 manual for the 225 grain gameking. This give the 338 a horrible shake up without straining.
Yes the 338 will do better if you long throat it use a magnum length action and seat the projectiles out further. A lot of playing around in my book.
A 35 Whelen with 225 grainers @2900 to 2,950 fps gives close on 4,300 fps of muzzle energy and carries it a long way.
In the field you wouldn't see much difference between the 2.
Bob

Powder capacity is powder capacity, cant get around it. .338 win mag holds at least 13 grains more powder than the Whelen.
Load them both to true and safe max, .338 wins. hands down.
To say the .338 is already at max? Factory? Maybe. Handload, it shares the same possibilities as the Whelen or any other round.
I know you think the Whelen is the best round ever designed and its a great one and I like it too, but honestly you cant make the case so to speak that its as powerful or more powerful than a round that holds 13 grains more powder, its still the .30-06 case. The comparison to the 9.3x62 is different in that their capacity is much closer, but I would still give the nod to the 9.3 with its slightly larger case, larger bullet diameter to push against and ability to handle heavier bullets.
Shown below is the Whelen on the left, .338 on the right. Both have a charge of 69.9 grs of ball powder just for illustrative purposes. Not tapped in, just poured thru a funnel. Whelen case is near to overflowing, .338 shows powder down inside nearly a half inch.
As our new Wunderkind President might say, "C'mon man!"

 

[MS 9x56]

Not a lot of factory rifles in 35W but it’s not hard to find one if you want one. As previously mentioned, Remington made the 700 Classic in 35W and you can still find them for sale. Ruger chambered the 77 in 35W and you can order the 35W in a Nosler 48, Cooper and the Montana Rifle Company made them in 35W (I think they’re not in business any more?).

I just checked Online auctions and found 5 Whelen’s for sale. (1 Remington, 1 Ruger, 1 made on an 03-A3 action and 2 made on Mauser actions.

My Whelen is based on an FN Mauser action and it’s fun to shoot. Had it out yesterday trying some 225 grain Sierras. Recoil is very manageable.

I live in the center of the USA and our big game here is primarily deer. We don’t have to travel too far to hunt elk.
For my location the Whelen is more practical to own than the 9.3x62. You can usually find a box or two of Remington core lock 35W in our local shops and 30-06 brass is plentiful to make your own. I reload for my Whelen and primarily use the Hornady 250 grain Spire Point.

I’ve thought about why the Whelen isn’t more popular and it’s obvious, at least to me, that there are several reasons. There are not many factory rifles chambered for it, it’s not mainstream commonly mentioned rifle in hunting magazines, you don’t really need a 250 grain bullet to kill a deer and there are powerful calibers that have more reach for larger game like elk.

I mainly use mine for hog hunting. . The heavy slow bullets easily defeat the gristle plate for quick clean kills. I own it, not that I really need it (hope my wife doesn’t read this) but I enjoy owning something a little different and like the history of the cartridge that gave American hunters “big” bore capability using commonly available actions and components.

I have no experience with the 9.3x62 but I have no doubt that it is a fine cartridge with an interesting history but the 35 Whelen just works better for my situation and I really doubt that game shot with a properly placed shot from either caliber will be able to tell the difference.

The real reason it is not more popular is most shooters aversion to recoil. Same for the 9.3. It is a good thing we don’t have dangerous game on this side of the pond.

 

[MS 9x56]

@WAB
Fear I have been in hospital having shoulder surgery. I may not be able to shoot for 9 months but I can still type and put my 2 cents worth in on this discussion.
If'n you want the ultimate in penetration load the 225 grain Woodleigh hydrostatic stabilized projectiles at 2,9500 fps. These will ream a brontosauras out from end to end.
I don't know how I got the gold typing maybe s9me one will tell me.
Bob

Bob sorry to hear about the shoulder. Went through that 3 years ago myself. I know it will go against your grain but mind your Dr. And do your PT and you’ll be back behind that Whelen before you know it.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Bob sorry to hear about the shoulder. Went through that 3 years ago myself. I know it will go against your grain but mind your Dr. And do your PT and you’ll be back behind that Whelen before you know it.

@MS 9x56
Thanks mate doing everything the Dr says to the letter. It will still take around 9 months tho.
Bob

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Powder capacity is powder capacity, cant get around it. .338 win mag holds at least 13 grains more powder than the Whelen.
Load them both to true and safe max, .338 wins. hands down.
To say the .338 is already at max? Factory? Maybe. Handload, it shares the same possibilities as the Whelen or any other round.
I know you think the Whelen is the best round ever designed and its a great one and I like it too, but honestly you cant make the case so to speak that its as powerful or more powerful than a round that holds 13 grains more powder, its still the .30-06 case. The comparison to the 9.3x62 is different in that their capacity is much closer, but I would still give the nod to the 9.3 with its slightly larger case, larger bullet diameter to push against and ability to handle heavier bullets.
Shown below is the Whelen on the left, .338 on the right. Both have a charge of 69.9 grs of ball powder just for illustrative purposes. Not tapped in, just poured thru a funnel. Whelen case is near to overflowing, .338 shows powder down inside nearly a half inch.
As our new Wunderkind President might say, "C'mon man!"
View attachment 387869

@sestoppelman
I 100% agree capacity is capacity but so is pressure. The 338 with its bigger capacity runs at 52,500 cup.
The Whelen with its smaller capacity using Speers loads are running at 52,500 cup.
So as you can see yes the powder capacity is vastly different but the pressures are the same. It's pressure that accelerates a projectiles not powder capacity.
If both are loaded to the same pressure in theory both should have similar velocity but because the 35 has a larger surface area the gases have a greater effect on acceleration.
Bob.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

Hello,

I can obtain almost those velocities with R15 in my 9,3x62 with 220 grs monometal FOX (Slovenian), and all 250 grs ones, TTSX, TSX, GMX and Nosler Accubond. NORMA, SAKO and REMINGTON cases with 200 and/or 250 CCI, and RWS (big letter=smaller capacity) with 1 less grs and Winchester LR primer. Safe near máximum loads.
For the record, my rifle, a BRNO ZKK 600 all original, has a long magazine, 88 mm lenght.
About the chamber designs,
1- The original CIP chamber for the 9,3x62 has a very long bullet free travel of 28 mm from the mouth of the neck to the begining of the lands.
2- The 35 Whelen chamber has a 10,21 mm in that dimension.

I make my cartridges from 86 to 87,5 mm O.A.L. So, my loads are:

FOX 220 grs 64 (RWS) and 65 (NORMA et al.) R15 for 2850 f/s
All 250 grs 62 (RWS) and 63 (NORMA et al.) R15 for 2650 f/s

Best!

CF

@Clodo Ferreira
Depending on the projectile I can load to a length of over 86mm in my Whelen and it still fits the mag with room to spare. It's a good aspect of both cartridges.
Bob

 

[bruce moulds]

more powder at the same pressure does seem to give more velocity.
compare 338/06 vs 338 win, and 35 whelen vs 358 norma vs 358 alaskan (stw) loaded to same pressure.
the problem in this debate is we are crossing over in calibres, which means thrust on different sized pistons.
it is complicated further by a requirement for different burning rate powders.
bruce.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

more powder at the same pressure does seem to give more velocity.
compare 338/06 vs 338 win, and 35 whelen vs 358 norma vs 358 alaskan (stw) loaded to same pressure.
the problem in this debate is we are crossing over in calibres, which means thrust on different sized pistons.
it is complicated further by a requirement for different burning rate powders.
bruce.

@bruce moulds
I agree Bruce. When you start getting into complex maths it gets a bit hard.
We should just agree all three cartridges (9.3, 358 and 338) are all good calibers that get the job done to the extent that no game could tell the difference with what it was hit by at sensible hunting ranges.
My aim was to bring the 35 Whelen into the real world instead of the anemic factory loads. It's good to see some companies are doing this with their information and newer powders. It just puts things on a more level playing field for hunters.
Bob

 

[bruce moulds]

bob, you are certainly making a good case for the whelen.
as an aside, probably the biggest difference between these calibers is in projectile choice for intended game and point blank range requirement.
the 9.3x64 with the wrong bullet will not compete with the 338 win with the right bullet.
and you have demonstrated that thought going into loads can make a huge difference.
one thing that amazes is the number of guys here that load cartridges with powders of too fast burning rate, and travel on happily , running higher pressures for less velocity.
bruce.

 

[MS 9x56]

@MS 9x56
Thanks mate doing everything the Dr says to the letter. It will still take around 9 months tho.
Bob

It is a long painful process. I was lucky my physical therapist was drop dead gorgeous and a real sweetheart to boot. I wish you the same luck my friend. Stick to 22 caliber for awhile and work your way up slowly. I wish you well.

 

[sestoppelman]

@sestoppelman
I 100% agree capacity is capacity but so is pressure. The 338 with its bigger capacity runs at 52,500 cup.
The Whelen with its smaller capacity using Speers loads are running at 52,500 cup.
So as you can see yes the powder capacity is vastly different but the pressures are the same. It's pressure that accelerates a projectiles not powder capacity.
If both are loaded to the same pressure in theory both should have similar velocity but because the 35 has a larger surface area the gases have a greater effect on acceleration.
Bob.

Well yes and no. It takes powder to make pressure right? Both rounds can be run up to 55K in a good rifle, but it will take more powder to reach that max pressure in the larger case. Good example would be the old .308/'06 comparison. The .308 will do more with less, (efficiency!) but in the end the '06 wins because it can push bullets faster due to that old powder capacity/pressure. Cant have one without the other.

As mentioned above when you start mixing calibers, it gets more complicated. Take the same case as the .338 win mag, say the .264 Win mag. Same case, much smaller caliber. I doubt its possible to get anywhere near the same level of energy in that round as in the .35 W or the .338 Win., too small a caliber and light bullets. A quick look at tables shows about the best one might get is 2900 fps with a 160 gr bullet (3000 lbs ME). I can do that with a .280 Rem/7x64! But there is a big difference in caliber between .264 and .338-.358", which proves that capacity isnt the whole story.
So yes pressure is the key, but it takes powder to make pressure. And when you have more powder room available, with similar diameter calibers, capacity wins.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

It is a long painful process. I was lucky my physical therapist was drop dead gorgeous and a real sweetheart to boot. I wish you the same luck my friend. Stick to 22 caliber for awhile and work your way up slowly. I wish you well.

@MS 9x56
If my physio looked like that my wife would get a different one for me because if I told her how good looking my physio was I would probably be back in hospital.
Bob

 

[MS 9x56]

@MS 9x56
If my physio looked like that my wife would get a different one for me because if I told her how good looking my physio was I would probably be back in hospital.
Bob

OMG I never told my wife I even had a female PT.