308 Winchester Caliber Opinions...

[Fastrig]

My 15year old son used a 308 Howa
Loaded with 150grain accubonds and 140grain outer edge. The outer edge are an Australian design mono, very accurate and very deadly. He used both because out to 200yards they had identical point.
All shots on game were thru and thru. A beautiful Hartman zebra was shot at around 130yards ran about 20yards and piled up. She was dead on the first shot just didn't know it. Accubonds had the same thru and thru on everything shot.
If you ask him what would you take for PG in Namibia he would say you don't need anything more than a 308 just learn to put your shot where it's meant to be dad and job's done.

Smart young man

 

[Alistair]

I like the .308.

Plenty of power for anything in Europe and pretty much anything in the US as well, mild mannered, easy to load for, ammo available everywhere.

It does a lot better with short barrels than any of the magnums, which is handy for short or moderated guns, and for the competition shooter, barrel life is substantially better.

You have a great range of components and bullets which increases it's flexibility as well.

I'd say it's pretty much the benchmark for a hunting round for medium game within 300yds, which covers off almost all the hunting most people do.

I might not shoot Eland or a big bear with one, but anything short of that, yeah, no issue.

 

[Fastrig]

I like the .308.

Plenty of power for anything in Europe and pretty much anything in the US as well, mild mannered, easy to load for, ammo available everywhere.

It does a lot better with short barrels than any of the magnums, which is handy for short or moderated guns, and for the competition shooter, barrel life is substantially better.

You have a great range of components and bullets which increases it's flexibility as well.

I'd say it's pretty much the benchmark for a hunting round for medium game within 300yds, which covers off almost all the hunting most people do.

I might not shoot Eland or a big bear with one, but anything short of that, yeah, no issue.

Well said and couldn’t agree more. Some folks argue for the 30-06 instead of the 308, but from 300 yards in they are essentially equals. What I find so appealing about the 308, on top of what you so eloquently posted, is that it is the perfect practice caliber for a hunter. Decent ammo is cheap and the 308’s ballistics transition well to other calibers you take to the field for shots 300 and in.

 

[Major Khan]

It is an extremely fine cartridge . My clients used to bring rifles chambered in this cartridge for shikar to India in the 1960s and it took every form of non dangerous game and the following dangerous game with success :
Forest panthers , Asian Sloth Bears and Indian Bush Boar. You cannot go wrong with it.
Me , personally ? I prefer the .30-06 Springfield , but l am an old soul with old fashioned tastes.

 

[sestoppelman]

The effective differences between the 308 and 30-06 are more a result of the limitations placed on each by the rifles in which they are chambered. Standard chamberings for the 308 are short actions while the 30-06 will be in a long action. Limited to an overall length of 2.8" the 308 is at a serious disadvantage when bullets over 165 gr or of a high BC profile are used. To meet the length limit the bullets need to be seated well into the case, reducing the powder space. The 30-06 doesn't have this limitation, so long bullets may be seated well out in the neck, increasing the space for powder. If both cartridges are compared without limitations they are very near equal, particularly with lighter bullets, but generally that isn't the case.

The .308 is at a serious disadvantage to the .30-06 primarily BECAUSE it holds a fair amount less powder. One can argue all day about COAL but a side by side casual glance tells one all you need to know about why the .308 cannot ever equal the 30-06. Simply not possible. There are any number of similar comparisons to be made with other rounds, but more boiler room always wins.

 

[Ryan]

The .308 is at a serious disadvantage to the .30-06 primarily BECAUSE it holds a fair amount less powder. One can argue all day about COAL but a side by side casual glance tells one all you need to know about why the .308 cannot ever equal the 30-06. Simply not possible. There are any number of similar comparisons to be made with other rounds, but more boiler room always wins.

I have no complaints about the performance of my three 30-06, but comparing the two strictly by visuals and case capacity doesn't add up with the realities of the differences in design.


So, for comparison I did away with all variables but the cartridge. Same bullet, same powder for each weight bullet.
Personally I use Barnes bullets so data is from the Barnes manual.

150 grain bullet
Varget powder

.308 Winchester
41.7gr-2650 fps
46.3 gr-2910 fps

30-06 Springfield
49.5 gr- 2793 fps
52.5 gr- 2972 fps


165/168 grain bullet
H4895 powder

.308 Winchester
37.9 gr-2500 fps
42.1 gr- 2725 fps

30-06 Springfield
46.0 gr-2588 fps
49.5 gr-2754 fps


The 30-06 "wins" with some more speed in each comparison. But not much speed. Under 100 fps on either end of the scale.
And grain for grain of powder the 308 "wins" for efficiency. The highest load of each powder in a 308 is less than the lowest load for a 30-06 yet the 308 gives a velocity of less then 100 fps below the 30-06 in each comparison using significantly less powder. In the 165 grain comparison the 30-06 needed 7.4 grains more powder to get all of 29 fps more than the 308.

 

[Fastrig]

The .308 is at a serious disadvantage to the .30-06 primarily BECAUSE it holds a fair amount less powder. One can argue all day about COAL but a side by side casual glance tells one all you need to know about why the .308 cannot ever equal the 30-06. Simply not possible. There are any number of similar comparisons to be made with other rounds, but more boiler room always wins.

With 180 grain rounds, the 308 and 30-06 zeroed at 200 yards are virtually identical out to 300 yards, the 30-06 gains a slight advantage out to 400 yards. At 300 yards the 30-06 does perform slightly better but not enough to make any significant difference between the calibers. Both of these calibers are excellent hunting rounds out to 300-400 yards, but if you want to reach out past 400 yards you’re better off stepping up to a 7mm rem mag or 300 win mag. Use the Norma ammo ballistic calculator on their website (great little calculator) and pick the 30-06 and 308 win Oryx 180 grain hunting rounds to see the comparison between the two.

 

[sestoppelman]

Ryan, That's not a valid comparison I am afraid. The '06 holds about 25 percent more powder and if you load them both up to equal pressure which most manuals give the .308 an advantage to, then there is a big difference. The 06 can drive a 180 gr bullet to 2800 fps, the .308 will do well to reach 2600 fps. 150 gr? 3100 for the 06, maybe 2900 for the .308 etc etc. Loading manuals are a poor place to try to make case comparisons, especially since most manuals hold the '06 to a lower pressure standard for which in modern rifles there is no need.

You have to look at the max potential of each round.

Don't get me wrong I love the .308, have a half dozen or so and I think its the more accurate round of the two, but the 06 just has enough more capacity, and yes it really is the big thing here, than the .308 that trying to say its nearly as good as the other is sort of an exercise in time wasting. It isn't and never can be the equal in raw power. More accurate? I think so. Pretty equal on game? I think that is also true. The same could also be said about the .280 Rem and 7mm Rem mag. One is supposedly much more powerful than the other, but on game I doubt you could really tell the difference. But again, load them both up to the same max pressure and then read the chrono.

Fastrig, you are speaking mainly I assume of trajectory. But it all depends on what you start out at. Just looking at quoted ballistics from books or manuals doesn't tell the whole story. Like I said above, you have to look at the max potential of each round, not just what some manual says, because again, as I note above, the 06 is usually held to lower pressure standard.

 

[Newby]

Oops - sestoppelman bet me to the punch (reply) but I'll leave this here anyway.

Ryan's comparison using two powders suited to 308 case capacity is flawed. It would be equally flawed if he used something suited to the 06 case capacity, such as H4350, in both.

As sestoppelman pointed out,the 06 has approximately 20% more case capacity than the 308, and no amount of gun gack or ballistic sophistry can change that, or the consequent 150fps advantage that it gives the 30.06 in any apples to apples comparison.

Similarly the comparison of 300 yard POI when both are zeroed at 200 is unsound. The further out zero is taken, the more the drop looks similar, but if actual drop at 300, is compared, the differences are much more apparent. One could just as easily zero both at 300mand say they are equal. Or zero them both at 100 and point out the bigger difference that would show. Mid range rise counts too.

I am a big 308 fan, but the two are simply not equal, and in any apples/apples comparison they never can be.

Whether or not the difference is needed by each of us is up to each of us to decide.

 

[sestoppelman]

Fellas, size matters....

 

[Ray B]

Fellas, size matters..../QUOTE]

That's why your wife prefers the mailman.

 

[Fastrig]

Ryan, That's not a valid comparison I am afraid. The '06 holds about 25 percent more powder and if you load them both up to equal pressure which most manuals give the .308 an advantage to, then there is a big difference. The 06 can drive a 180 gr bullet to 2800 fps, the .308 will do well to reach 2600 fps. 150 gr? 3100 for the 06, maybe 2900 for the .308 etc etc. Loading manuals are a poor place to try to make case comparisons, especially since most manuals hold the '06 to a lower pressure standard for which in modern rifles there is no need.

You have to look at the max potential of each round.

Don't get me wrong I love the .308, have a half dozen or so and I think its the more accurate round of the two, but the 06 just has enough more capacity, and yes it really is the big thing here, than the .308 that trying to say its nearly as good as the other is sort of an exercise in time wasting. It isn't and never can be the equal in raw power. More accurate? I think so. Pretty equal on game? I think that is also true. The same could also be said about the .280 Rem and 7mm Rem mag. One is supposedly much more powerful than the other, but on game I doubt you could really tell the difference. But again, load them both up to the same max pressure and then read the chrono.

Fastrig, you are speaking mainly I assume of trajectory. But it all depends on what you start out at. Just looking at quoted ballistics from books or manuals doesn't tell the whole story. Like I said above, you have to look at the max potential of each round, not just what some manual says, because again, as I note above, the 06 is usually held to lower pressure standard.

I’m really looking at what the two will do compared to each other in the field within normal hunting distance, 300 yards in.....I’m not a big ballistic guy that looks at what one case can be maxed to this or that compared to another case, etc. I look at how the round performs when I hunt with it, what it costs to practice with it a lot, etc. I have both calibers, but will pick up the 308 most of the time over the 30-06 as it performs well in the ranges I shoot, it’s cost effective to shoot, and it’s very accurate. I give the edge to the 308 over the 30-06 for these reasons.

 

[sestoppelman]

I’m really looking at what the two will do compared to each other in the field within normal hunting distance, 300 yards in.....I’m not a big ballistic guy that looks at what one case can be maxed to this or that compared to another case, etc. I look at how the round performs when I hunt with it, what it costs to practice with it a lot, etc. I have both calibers, but will pick up the 308 most of the time over the 30-06 as it performs well in the ranges I shoot, it’s cost effective to shoot, and it’s very accurate. I give the edge to the 308 over the 30-06 for these reasons.

That you like it better is perfectly fine, but that does not make it better.

 

[sestoppelman]

That's a real knee slapper Ray,

 

[Ray B]

She wasn't referring to his knees.

 

[Ryan]

Ah, the joy of splitting hairs, or perhaps hares.

As you state "Pretty equal on game? I think that is also true..." And that is really what it all boils down.

 

[sestoppelman]

She wasn't referring to his knees.

Roger dodger you old codger!

 

[Fastrig]

Ryan, That's not a valid comparison I am afraid. The '06 holds about 25 percent more powder and if you load them both up to equal pressure which most manuals give the .308 an advantage to, then there is a big difference. The 06 can drive a 180 gr bullet to 2800 fps, the .308 will do well to reach 2600 fps. 150 gr? 3100 for the 06, maybe 2900 for the .308 etc etc. Loading manuals are a poor place to try to make case comparisons, especially since most manuals hold the '06 to a lower pressure standard for which in modern rifles there is no need.

You have to look at the max potential of each round.

Don't get me wrong I love the .308, have a half dozen or so and I think its the more accurate round of the two, but the 06 just has enough more capacity, and yes it really is the big thing here, than the .308 that trying to say its nearly as good as the other is sort of an exercise in time wasting. It isn't and never can be the equal in raw power. More accurate? I think so. Pretty equal on game? I think that is also true. The same could also be said about the .280 Rem and 7mm Rem mag. One is supposedly much more powerful than the other, but on game I doubt you could really tell the difference. But again, load them both up to the same max pressure and then read the chrono.

Fastrig, you are speaking mainly I assume of trajectory. But it all depends on what you start out at. Just looking at quoted ballistics from books or manuals doesn't tell the whole story. Like I said above, you have to look at the max potential of each round, not just what some manual says, because again, as I note above, the 06 is usually held to lower pressure standard.

I’m really looking at what the two will do compared to each other in the field within normal hunting distance, 300 yards in.....I’m not a big ballistic guy that looks at what one case can be maxed to this or that compared to another case, etc. I look at how the round performs when I hunt with it, what it costs to practice with it a lot, etc. I have both calibers, but will pick up the 308 most of the time over the 30-06 as it performs well in the ranges I shoot, it’s cost effective to shoot, and it’s very accurate. I give the edge to the 308 over the 30-06 for these reasons.

That you like it better is perfectly fine, but that does not make it better.

I never said it was better, I said I give the 308 the edge for the things that matter the most to me, i.e. its accuracy, it costs less to practice with, and from 300 yards in, where I normally hunt, it’s ballistically pretty much equal to the 30-06 with the factory ammo I use, and with less recoil. The biggest advantages the 30-06 has are its ability to shoot heavier rounds than the 308 can handle and if you hand load its ability to be hot rodded to higher levels. I’d rather use my 300 win mag if those are a criteria for a hunt.

 

[sestoppelman]

Gotcha. You like it better. So do I for some things. I have 5 M14 type rifles, 4 are .308, one is 6.5 Creed. I also have two M40 sniper clones, both are extremely accurate. Then there is a post 64 Model 70 Win made in 1969 that shoots almost as well as the two M40's. I love the .308.

Have probably 5 or 6 '06's too including 2 M1 Garands, love them. What bores me to tears is reading stuff like what my best buddy RayB, who thinks my wife likes the mail man better than me, LOL, say stuff like he did, ie. "its about short actions and OAL", baloney.

Its about powder capacity, it is how we measure ballistics, what the cartridge can actually do as opposed to its likeability or suitability, or other intangibles. Facts are facts. Bigger powder capacity equals more velocity, period. It may be less efficient, larger cases by their nature are less efficient than smaller ones and it takes more powder in the larger case to equal what the same charge will do in the smaller case. But in the end the larger case always wins if talking about raw ability. There can be no other result.

 

[Ray B]

Keeping the variable the same, using a Powley Computer. Federal 308 & 30-06 cases the estimated velocities for 180 gr bullet at 45K pressure are 2460fps and 2600 fps. there is no doubt that 2600 fps is faster than 2460. the question enters: is it worth it to the shooter. A 308 bolt action rifle has a half inch less length in the action and a half inch less barrel to achieve the same bullet base to muzzle distance, total length savings 1 inch. In several rifle designs, this will be about a pound. the 30-06 is a more powerful cartridge but seeing the number of 308s in the field indicate that a lot of hunters prefer the less length and weight.