12 gauge Paradox Gun-Is it Possible to even get supplies to shoot?

[ActionBob]

 

[VertigoBE]

Looks like I'll be starting the lookout for 12b paradox supplies as well.
Anyone in Europe who has stuff that they would like to get rid off, let me know

 

[pacomb]

Hello all


I am new to the forum and was excited to read so much information on Paradox guns.

I have a H&H 16 gauge paradox shot gun. It is a secong grade gun, I think that is the previous level to Royal ones. It was originally delivered on 1910 to a Spanish Marquese, and it is in exceptional condition, with the original H&H case.

I would like to use it for wild pork in Spain, and rabbits, thus using normal ammo, and special one for big game.

I have just found in the USA the Paradox book, which I should receive in a couple of weeks.

I am not sure yet if I can use modern big game ammo on the Paradox, or I need specific Paradox ammo for big game.

For the small game, I understand normal ammo can be used with no problem.

I also may be lucky to get an original Browning A5 12 bore from 1915, with rifling on the end of the barrel, so it should be the same as the H&H Paradox.

 

[pacomb]

Some ten years ago, while researching for an article I was writing on 19th century smooth-bore ‘rifles’, I did some tests with a friend of mine with modern slugs for shotguns. My friend has brought his 1910 Holland & Holland 12-bore Royal Nitro Paradox for Magnum Charge (with blade-sights 50 – 100 and 150 yds). As he could not get hold of Paradox ammo, he wanted to try the gun with Brenneke slugs. Not a good idea though, a Brenneke slug having its own rifling, and highly NOT recommended by this London gunmaker.

Hello Caldix: I am in the same situation of not having access to 16ga original H&H ammo (although there are is new production for the 12ga), and I cant reload.

Like your friend I have been searching for modern slug ammo, but for the 16ga there are very few options.

Specially I have found 2 options:
-Brenneke style with fins, and as you mention the fins may not work correctly with the rifling of the Paradox
-Slug with plastic sabot/jacket, although the slug has fins, they are surrounded by the plastic sabot/jacket, that should take the rifling spin and separate once it exits the barrel

The only 16ga ammo with sabot/jacket I can find (at least in my country) is the Brenneke Topas Sabot Nature https://www.brenneke-ammunition.de/en/details/161270?cHash=5155a0a00ca63608b4efa03fae9f7863

I would love to hear your comments as it is the only feasible ammo I can find for my gun

Regards

paco

 

[Caldix]

Ola Paco,
Congrats with your 1910 16-bore Paradox.
If you have not done so already, you can ask H&H for an official certificate / provenance, they are fortunately once more co-operative and indeed very kind after the take-over by Beretta. (provided you're ready to pay the approx. 75 GBP fee)
Your 16-bore probably is a Magnum (check for 50-100-150 leaves). The load might be engraved underside action. If not, you probably get this info from the H&H certificate.
Brenneke slugs, however tempting, are probably not a good idea, the bullet having its own 'rifling', and most certainly not recommended by H&H as in my case.
As written earlier I suggest you should carefully measure / having measured the bore, and order a bullet mould from CastBulletEngineering or other on these specs or 0,xxxx mm (see previous contribution) under.
(Re)charging seems to me the only solution, as I did recently for a 1874 14-bore smoothbore (2nd patent) Charles Lancaster DB-rifle. I found myself on NaturaBuy (France) some 14-bore primed shells and had lots of fun with only the 3 drs of BP (Suisse).
Your 16-bore most likely being smokeless 'Revolver Cordite' and no BP-equivalent given, the correct charge of modern powder will probably need quite a bit of research. Sorry, cant help you with that.
If your 16-bore Paradox were my gun and if I wanted to do some serious hunting, I'd do some (re)loading with 3 (5,316 g) to may be even 4 drs of Suisse BP no. 3 (2fg), less 'smoky' and less dirty than ordinary BP.
Best of luck, 'Caldix'

 

[GeorgeGibbs505]

I have some original 12 bore tools that I would sell. Nothing in 16 though.

 

[pacomb]

Bonjour Caldix!!


Thanks for your kind words

Yes, I already have fully documented the history, after having asked H&H for its history.

Yes, the gun has 3 sights, 50-100 and 150 yard (veeeery optimistic?) I was not aware that magnum guns had 3 sights, and non magnum had 2. I dont have the gun with me to check the action, but I can post the records I have.

Although I fully understand your thoughts about the classic Brenneke slugs with fins, I still have to consider the sabot/jacket ones, because in that case, the slug will never get in touch with the barrel or rifling, getting the plastic jacket all the deformation at the barrel and rifling. In that case, that the slug has or not fins, should not be an issue. Brenneke is just a company, and they have many models

Precisely, people with modern Paradox style guns, with interchangeable rifling chokes, refer sabot/jacket ones. Some reading I found on a company that manufactures modern chokes with rifling : https://store.geminichokes.com/en/blog/paradox-or-spreader-n9 They clearly recommend slug with plastic jacket/sabot

I have found 2 other alternative with plastic sabot or jacket

Cartuchos SAUVESTRE, bala FLECHE BFS, calibre 16/67/16 | Armeria Alberdi

www.armeriaalberdi.com

https://www.decathlon.es/es/p/bala-brenneke-17-g-sin-plomo-calibre-16-67-x-5/_/R-p-331365?mc=8640188

You might think, why don’t he just reloads (as you suggested)??. I have never reloaded (no experience what so ever), and MOST important, in Spain, reloading is very restricted, you need license that is very difficult to obtain to reload and to buy/store the elements, etc... So for me, reloading is not an option.

I send you some quick images I have at hand

Brenneke slugs, however tempting, are probably not a good idea, the bullet having its own 'rifling', and most certainly not recommended by H&H as in my case.
As written earlier I suggest you should carefully measure / having measured the bore, and order a bullet mould from CastBulletEngineering or other on these specs or 0,xxxx mm (see previous contribution) under.

 

[pacomb]

I have some original 12 bore tools that I would sell. Nothing in 16 though.

George, I wish they where 16ga one... but I have no luck :-(

hope you can find them a new home

Don't you have the Paradox gun they came with??? I hope you are not splitting the gun and the tools. It would be a shame

 

[Caldix]

Bonjour Caldix!!


Thanks for your kind words

Yes, I already have fully documented the history, after having asked H&H for its history.

Yes, the gun has 3 sights, 50-100 and 150 yard (veeeery optimistic?) I was not aware that magnum guns had 3 sights, and non magnum had 2. I dont have the gun with me to check the action, but I can post the records I have.

Although I fully understand your thoughts about the classic Brenneke slugs with fins, I still have to consider the sabot/jacket ones, because in that case, the slug will never get in touch with the barrel or rifling, getting the plastic jacket all the deformation at the barrel and rifling. In that case, that the slug has or not fins, should not be an issue. Brenneke is just a company, and they have many models

Precisely, people with modern Paradox style guns, with interchangeable rifling chokes, refer sabot/jacket ones. Some reading I found on a company that manufactures modern chokes with rifling : https://store.geminichokes.com/en/blog/paradox-or-spreader-n9 They clearly recommend slug with plastic jacket/sabot

I have found 2 other alternative with plastic sabot or jacket

Cartuchos SAUVESTRE, bala FLECHE BFS, calibre 16/67/16 | Armeria Alberdi

www.armeriaalberdi.com

https://www.decathlon.es/es/p/bala-brenneke-17-g-sin-plomo-calibre-16-67-x-5/_/R-p-331365?mc=8640188

You might think, why don’t he just reloads (as you suggested)??. I have never reloaded (no experience what so ever), and MOST important, in Spain, reloading is very restricted, you need license that is very difficult to obtain to reload and to buy/store the elements, etc... So for me, reloading is not an option.

I send you some quick images I have at hand

Ola Paco,
Sorry to hear of this Spanish legislation depriving you of the possibility of reloading yourself!
What about your ’armero’? A Paradox being particularly peculiar with his ammo, I’m afraid that no present factory stuff will do: first you need to have the correct dimensions of the bullet, and second the type and charge of powder.
The charge and type of powder your 16-bore # 15 802 has been regulated with, is alas not stated in the ‘provenance’ by H&H (you surely did your homework!) and, alas not given either, on page 224 of the Paradox book you so wisely ordered (probably 26 grns of Revolver Cordite). You may find the BP equivalent of the 30 grns of Revolver Cordite (4 drs of BP no. 6). And with that point of departure, a learned reloader might be able to calculate a modern substitute.
I have managed to shoot completely ‘cross-eyed’ with an 1872 Purdey 40-bore DB cf rifle at 50 m, just for not using the charges she was regulated with.
Of course, you can try the Brenneke slugs, and if good results, why not.
If poor results, and provided you find an ‘armero’ willing to make your ammo, I’m afraid the only way is measuring the bore, getting a bullet mould, find yourself 16-bore brass (used to be available at Brownell, but no longer, but still at Buffalo arms US for abt. 40$ box of 25).
If chamber measures allow, you might even be able to use cardboard or plastic shells.
If you find an armero willing, but not having shells, don’t hesitate to let me know, I might be able to help from France (using mail-address).

I can also recommend Graeme WRIGHT: Shooting the British Double Rifle, as from the 2nd edn, chapter 12. When I contacted Greame for my 1893 10-bore Royal Paradox, he was most helpful.

Cordialmente, ‘Caldix’

 

[Caldix]

I have some original 12 bore tools that I would sell. Nothing in 16 though. View attachment 683836View attachment 683839View attachment 683838

I have some original 12 bore tools that I would sell. Nothing in 16 though. View attachment 683836View attachment 683839View attachment 683838

I have some original 12 bore tools that I would sell. Nothing in 16 though. View attachment 683836View attachment 683839View attachment 683838

I have some original 12 bore tools that I would sell. Nothing in 16 though. View attachment 683836View attachment 683839View attachment 683838

I have some original 12 bore tools that I would sell. Nothing in 16 though. View attachment 683836View attachment 683839View attachment 683838

I have some original 12 bore tools that I would sell. Nothing in 16 though. View attachment 683836View attachment 683839View attachment 683838

Hi GG505,
Haven't ever seen such an impressive set of Paradox(like) tools! The serial-number on the mould not being a Paradox-number, do you know the make of the gun it was made for?
Having two 12-bores Paradox, I'm interested if the price is right, but exporting US-France might be a problem. Could you pse post a pic with price-tags for all items? Thanks.
Best regards, Caldix

 

[pacomb]

Hello Caldix, yes, I live in EU, but Spanish regulation is like from another world...

My options:

FIRST: original paradox ammo, not available

SECOND: commercial modern ammo: only option is the Topas Sabot Nature. Just got an email from Breneke factory, they don't even know what Paradox is, and of course they don't want to talk or recommend something they don't know and have not tested. They refer me to a gunsmith and try they ammo. They confirm they ammo can be used with any king of choke, 1 star (very close) to 5 star (open), and for me, if the ammo can be shot with 1 star, it should be no problem to use with rifling. No? The most importart thing is safety, so I will order a box (5 units), open one shell, and have it measured carefully by the gunsmith. If he says it is safe to use, then I will make several shots, 50 and 100 meter, and will see if it is accurate enough.

Choke manufacturer Gemini that makes Paradox style chokes, will state: "we recommend the use of Paradox only with slug bullets or with sub-calibrated sabot ones such those marketed by Sauvestre and a few others. Hence we suggest you don't use Paradox choke tube combined with slug bullets equipped with helical ridges (Gualandi, Solengo, Brenneke etc.); in fact they have already been profiled to create a gyroscopic stabilization in the smoothbore barrel and the same land on their surface could be in conflict with the rifling of the Paradox choke tube, compromising the effectiveness of the shot."

https://store.geminichokes.com/en/blog/paradox-or-spreader-n9

THIRD: reloading... As I said I cant, but you are correct that is doesn't mean a gunsmith or a friend with the legal possibility and knowleadge can do it for me, if I buy him the tools. Importing full ammo to Spain is totally discarded, you really dont know how tight spanish law is when it comes to guns and ammo... i can only buy shells and maybe molds, and powder has to be with the required licence. Brownells Spain sells metal shells for 16 gauge (https://www.brownells.es/SHOTSHELL-...ELL-MAGTECH-AMMUNITION-16-Gauge-245-100013036)
As for the black powder or smokeless powder and quantity, I have no idea

I have managed to shoot completely ‘cross-eyed’ with an 1872 Purdey 40-bore DB cf rifle at 50 m, just for not using the charges she was regulated with.

Sorry, I don't understand your message, what is cross-eyed exactly?

The charge and type of powder your 16-bore # 15 802 has been regulated with, is alas not stated in the ‘provenance’ by H&H (you surely did your homework!) and, alas not given either, on page 224 of the Paradox book you so wisely ordered

I have taken some photos of the barrels. Very little info can be read.... I can see a symbol with SF, as far as I know that means "sans fumes" that is smokeless, no?? I can read SF 96, no idea what is it. Also I can read "HOT", maybe from "SHOT", and maybe like a diamond shape with a 6 inside?? I don't know why all the markings in that area are so worn out.

I can also recommend Graeme WRIGHT: Shooting the British Double Rifle, as from the 2nd edn, chapter 12. When I contacted Greame for my 1893 10-bore Royal Paradox, he was most helpful.

Sorry, I don't know Graeme. Surely it could be a great help to know his opinion. Can you put me in direct contact with him?

LASTLY, i have found a Russian company (Svarog) that makes Paradox 16 gauge molds!!! they sell in France:
https://www.svaroghunt.ru/product/puleleyka-paradox-16-kalibr?lang=en Russian link

Moule à balle "PARADOX" Calibre 16 - Svarog

armesbastille.com

What do you think??

And the ready known alternatives:

12GA PDX S OS

www.castbulletengineering.com.au

Mold Specifications | Accurate Molds

We offer a variety of mold block sizes, cavity configurations, and materials. Molds are available in aluminum, brass, and iron.

accuratemolds.com

 

[Caldix]

Hi Paco,
'CrossEyed' = the right barrel shooting left of the target and the left to the right of it, in this (my) case at 50 m. In fact, when the barrels are soldered perfectly parallel together, the effect of the recoil AND the deformation of the outside of the barrel (more elastic than the inside, soldered to the other barrel) make deviate the bullet. That's why guns, and in particular rifles are being 'regulated', with a particular bullet weight and powder charge at a certain distance to compensate for these effects.

Please don't be in a hurry to buy bullet mould, as your bullet should be as closely fitting the smooth bored part of the barrel as possible. I paid a fortune for a newly made set of loading tools (see pic in one of my earlier pots) for a newly made 10-bore H&H (but made by another …) Paradox. The mould making to small bullets is useless.
In their ‘manual’ (example in Paradox book) that came with the Paradox, H&H empansizes that bullets MUST be calibrated through a sizing die (see earlier published pic). A slightly oversized bullet is not a problem, an undersized is.
So standard moulds won’t probably be of no use. I mentioned CastBulletEngineering, but he makes (and made me) standard moulds. I should have mentioned www.accurate.moulds who made me as recent as March 2024 a perfect double alu 40-bore mould to be adapted (by me) for a 40-bore two-grooved Purdey percussion DB rifle at exactly the diameter needed.

You spend quite a bundle, I assume, on your 16-bore Paradox. You’ve done the right thing by ‘investing’ in THE Paradox book (I still regret that Roger Lake has not pursued his plan to write the second book for which I wrote a chapter).
The other book, by Graeme WRIGHT, is also a must in my opinion (as from 2nd edn., chapter 14 on Paradox). Take your time and read all that’s available. Graeme’s (mail)address is in the book, I don’t think he’d appreciate it to have it published.
Even if you’re not a reloader or technician, a three-point digital meter 16-20 mm to measure with precision the inside of chamber and bore (see pic) is in my opinon also a must. OK, with abt 400 € not cheap, and I don’t know if the -more affordable- nameless chinese copies that look identical are accurate enough.

I’m a bit surprised to see so little remaining of the proof marks. ‘HOT’ stands indeed for the ‘SHOT’, the charge of which should have been stated. Looks like a much-used gun … ? So much the more a good idea to measure exactly the inside of the bore and consequently the outside at the same spot with a digital sliding caliper (very affordably priced nowadays) to determine barrel wall thickness at 9” (nine inch = abt 23 cm) from the breech.

If indeed you can find someone to make your cartridges, you’ll need shells. Like Brownell’s France, the 16-bore are ‘no disponible’ in Spain either. At www.naturabuy.fr I found a box for abt 60 €. >> https://www.naturabuy.fr/ETUIS-EN-L...AMORCAGE-LARGE-RIFLE-BOXER-item-12523528.html
But ... will they fit the chambers of your 16-bore? (I asked the seller for dimensions; especially thickness of brass at mouth)

So, in short, do not act hastely, take your time, the boar’s won’t mind to live a little longer, and will probably not be allowed to be shot this time of year anyway.

Cordialmente, ‘Caldix’