12 gauge Paradox Gun-Is it Possible to even get supplies to shoot?

[ActionBob]

 

[VertigoBE]

Looks like I'll be starting the lookout for 12b paradox supplies as well.
Anyone in Europe who has stuff that they would like to get rid off, let me know

 

[pacomb]

Hello all


I am new to the forum and was excited to read so much information on Paradox guns.

I have a H&H 16 gauge paradox shot gun. It is a secong grade gun, I think that is the previous level to Royal ones. It was originally delivered on 1910 to a Spanish Marquese, and it is in exceptional condition, with the original H&H case.

I would like to use it for wild pork in Spain, and rabbits, thus using normal ammo, and special one for big game.

I have just found in the USA the Paradox book, which I should receive in a couple of weeks.

I am not sure yet if I can use modern big game ammo on the Paradox, or I need specific Paradox ammo for big game.

For the small game, I understand normal ammo can be used with no problem.

I also may be lucky to get an original Browning A5 12 bore from 1915, with rifling on the end of the barrel, so it should be the same as the H&H Paradox.

 

[pacomb]

Some ten years ago, while researching for an article I was writing on 19th century smooth-bore ‘rifles’, I did some tests with a friend of mine with modern slugs for shotguns. My friend has brought his 1910 Holland & Holland 12-bore Royal Nitro Paradox for Magnum Charge (with blade-sights 50 – 100 and 150 yds). As he could not get hold of Paradox ammo, he wanted to try the gun with Brenneke slugs. Not a good idea though, a Brenneke slug having its own rifling, and highly NOT recommended by this London gunmaker.

Hello Caldix: I am in the same situation of not having access to 16ga original H&H ammo (although there are is new production for the 12ga), and I cant reload.

Like your friend I have been searching for modern slug ammo, but for the 16ga there are very few options.

Specially I have found 2 options:
-Brenneke style with fins, and as you mention the fins may not work correctly with the rifling of the Paradox
-Slug with plastic sabot/jacket, although the slug has fins, they are surrounded by the plastic sabot/jacket, that should take the rifling spin and separate once it exits the barrel

The only 16ga ammo with sabot/jacket I can find (at least in my country) is the Brenneke Topas Sabot Nature https://www.brenneke-ammunition.de/en/details/161270?cHash=5155a0a00ca63608b4efa03fae9f7863

I would love to hear your comments as it is the only feasible ammo I can find for my gun

Regards

paco

 

[Caldix]

Ola Paco,
Congrats with your 1910 16-bore Paradox.
If you have not done so already, you can ask H&H for an official certificate / provenance, they are fortunately once more co-operative and indeed very kind after the take-over by Beretta. (provided you're ready to pay the approx. 75 GBP fee)
Your 16-bore probably is a Magnum (check for 50-100-150 leaves). The load might be engraved underside action. If not, you probably get this info from the H&H certificate.
Brenneke slugs, however tempting, are probably not a good idea, the bullet having its own 'rifling', and most certainly not recommended by H&H as in my case.
As written earlier I suggest you should carefully measure / having measured the bore, and order a bullet mould from CastBulletEngineering or other on these specs or 0,xxxx mm (see previous contribution) under.
(Re)charging seems to me the only solution, as I did recently for a 1874 14-bore smoothbore (2nd patent) Charles Lancaster DB-rifle. I found myself on NaturaBuy (France) some 14-bore primed shells and had lots of fun with only the 3 drs of BP (Suisse).
Your 16-bore most likely being smokeless 'Revolver Cordite' and no BP-equivalent given, the correct charge of modern powder will probably need quite a bit of research. Sorry, cant help you with that.
If your 16-bore Paradox were my gun and if I wanted to do some serious hunting, I'd do some (re)loading with 3 (5,316 g) to may be even 4 drs of Suisse BP no. 3 (2fg), less 'smoky' and less dirty than ordinary BP.
Best of luck, 'Caldix'

 

[GeorgeGibbs505]

I have some original 12 bore tools that I would sell. Nothing in 16 though.

 

[pacomb]

Bonjour Caldix!!


Thanks for your kind words

Yes, I already have fully documented the history, after having asked H&H for its history.

Yes, the gun has 3 sights, 50-100 and 150 yard (veeeery optimistic?) I was not aware that magnum guns had 3 sights, and non magnum had 2. I dont have the gun with me to check the action, but I can post the records I have.

Although I fully understand your thoughts about the classic Brenneke slugs with fins, I still have to consider the sabot/jacket ones, because in that case, the slug will never get in touch with the barrel or rifling, getting the plastic jacket all the deformation at the barrel and rifling. In that case, that the slug has or not fins, should not be an issue. Brenneke is just a company, and they have many models

Precisely, people with modern Paradox style guns, with interchangeable rifling chokes, refer sabot/jacket ones. Some reading I found on a company that manufactures modern chokes with rifling : https://store.geminichokes.com/en/blog/paradox-or-spreader-n9 They clearly recommend slug with plastic jacket/sabot

I have found 2 other alternative with plastic sabot or jacket

Cartuchos SAUVESTRE, bala FLECHE BFS, calibre 16/67/16 | Armeria Alberdi

www.armeriaalberdi.com

https://www.decathlon.es/es/p/bala-brenneke-17-g-sin-plomo-calibre-16-67-x-5/_/R-p-331365?mc=8640188

You might think, why don’t he just reloads (as you suggested)??. I have never reloaded (no experience what so ever), and MOST important, in Spain, reloading is very restricted, you need license that is very difficult to obtain to reload and to buy/store the elements, etc... So for me, reloading is not an option.

I send you some quick images I have at hand

Brenneke slugs, however tempting, are probably not a good idea, the bullet having its own 'rifling', and most certainly not recommended by H&H as in my case.
As written earlier I suggest you should carefully measure / having measured the bore, and order a bullet mould from CastBulletEngineering or other on these specs or 0,xxxx mm (see previous contribution) under.

 

[pacomb]

I have some original 12 bore tools that I would sell. Nothing in 16 though.

George, I wish they where 16ga one... but I have no luck :-(

hope you can find them a new home

Don't you have the Paradox gun they came with??? I hope you are not splitting the gun and the tools. It would be a shame