Your Thoughts: Free Daily Rates?

[Royal27]

Yes, just as they would for a day fee hunt if they didn’t show up. This deposit would essentially be agreed upon as good faith from the hunter that he will show up and take game, which is really no different than the deposit requirements of a day fee hunt.

It is just applied differently once the hunter arrives at camp.

That ends up being a minimum then, call it a deposit, day fee, or donation to the cause. It's still required cash out of pocket, regardless of the safari results.

 

[seattlesetters]

But no different than a day fee hunt in terms of a deposit, so it shouldn’t be objectionable as long as it is reasonable.

I realize outfitters want the client to assume all the risk, hence a $5,000 or 10 animal minimum or whatever it may be. I also realize hunters want the outfitter to have some sort of incentive to work hard to get them on game. Being in business carries risk and outfitters need to come to grips with that. International travel and hunting also involve risk, and clients need to understand that.

If both parties have risk and incentive, and if both parties are very clear on what they wish to accomplish by offering/accepting such a package and both parties act in good faith to produce a good outcome for each other (SCREENING!!!), I think this type of hunt can find a niche in the market.

 

[flat8]

No - the PH and staff's time has significant value regardless of how many animals are taken.

 

[Royal27]

But no different than a day fee hunt in terms of a deposit, so it shouldn’t be objectionable as long as it is reasonable.

Agree it's no different, day fees and a non refundable deposit are both fixed fees?

I m actually OK with free daily rates as long as the trophy fees remain the same and there is no minimum.

But you said there should be no minimum. You can't have it both ways, there is either a fixed fee, or not.

If both parties have risk and incentive, and if both parties are very clear on what they wish to accomplish by offering/accepting such a package and both parties act in good faith to produce a good outcome for each other (SCREENING!!!), I think this type of hunt can find a niche in the market.

Sounds like this situation would be the perfect one for day fees, plus trophy fees. Shared risk and clear goals.

 

[Erny]

I like the idea, but the few times I have seen it offered the trophy fees were quite high. With some simple math it was a wash. I would also be concerned that there would be a lot of pressure to shot stuff rather than just enjoying Africa.

 

[huntinlabs]

But no different than a day fee hunt in terms of a deposit, so it shouldn’t be objectionable as long as it is reasonable.

I realize outfitters want the client to assume all the risk, hence a $5,000 or 10 animal minimum or whatever it may be. I also realize hunters want the outfitter to have some sort of incentive to work hard to get them on game. Being in business carries risk and outfitters need to come to grips with that. International travel and hunting also involve risk, and clients need to understand that.

If both parties have risk and incentive, and if both parties are very clear on what they wish to accomplish by offering/accepting such a package and both parties act in good faith to produce a good outcome for each other (SCREENING!!!), I think this type of hunt can find a niche in the market.

I thought the inventive to shoot game was the trophy fee? Don't shoot it don't pay it. That's my understanding with 90 percent of the outfitters. The day fees are to pay for your food, the people working at the lodge etc. Show me where you can stay in a hotel have first class food and be catered to for 150 a day.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

The day fees are to pay for your food, the people working at the lodge etc.

Add the PH, use of a truck, fuel and trackers.

 

[seattlesetters]

Perhaps the outfitter will guide the hunters who accept such a package himself, thereby eliminating the expense of hiring a PH for the week.

I’m not saying this is the best way but I do believe it is another way for these businesses to keep camps full.

I know if I asked the OP for a quote on 7 days, 1:1, for kudu, Gemsbok, Impala, Steenbok, Springbok and zebra and he came back with a day fee total package quote of $7,250 but also said, “Hey Seattle, if you come in April or September or on one of three different weeks spread through June and July (weeks he himself will be in camp) I’ll knock off the day fees if you agree to spend around the same total amount you would have with the day fee package I quoted you. The way I see it, you could add a Hartebeest, Black or Blue Wildebeest and a Grey Duiker for the same amount of money. I’d need a bit bigger deposit, say, $2,500 with the same refund policy, but you’d be able to apply 100% of that deposit toward the trophy fees once you start taking animals.”

I would for sure explore this option with him and if we could work it out to be mutually agreed on as I’ve described in my previous posts, I’d have no problem doing it.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I know if I asked the OP for a quote on 7 days, 1:1, for kudu, Gemsbok, Impala, Steenbok, Springbok and zebra and he came back with a day fee total quote of $7,250

If you're looking at an outfitter in RSA or Namibia and likely other countries as well and they quote you $7250 in daily rates for 7 days, you need to run away. Daily rates in excess of $1000/day with trophy fees on top of that for a PG hunt, that's pretty rare in places not named Tanzania and perhaps even there too.

 

[seattlesetters]

If you're looking at an outfitter in RSA or Namibia and likely other countries as well and they quote you $7250 in daily rates for 7 days, you need to run away. Daily rates in excess of $1000/day with trophy fees on top of that for a PG hunt, that's pretty rare in places not named Tanzania and perhaps even there too.

This obviously would be for the entire package and was just an example.

 

[huntinlabs]

Perhaps the outfitter will guide the hunters who accept such a package himself, thereby eliminating the expense of hiring a PH for the week.

I’m not saying this is the best way but I do believe it is another way for these businesses to keep camps full.

I know if I asked the OP for a quote on 7 days, 1:1, for kudu, Gemsbok, Impala, Steenbok, Springbok and zebra and he came back with a day fee total quote of $7,250 but also said, “Hey Seattle, if you come in April or September or on one of three different weeks spread through June and July (weeks he himself will be in camp) I’ll knock off the day fees if you agree to spend around the same total amount you would have with the day fee package I quoted you. The way I see it, you could add a Hartebeest, Black or Blue Wildebeest and a Grey Duiker for the same amount of money. I’d need a bit bigger deposit, say, $2,500 with the same refund policy, but you’d be able to apply 100% of that deposit toward the trophy fees once you start taking animals.”

I would for sure explore this option with him and if we could work it out to be mutually agreed on as I’ve described in my previous posts, I’d have no problem doing it.

In alot of the cases the outfitter is a PH. But he still has to make enough money to cover the same cost. I don' expect anyone to work for free. The way I see it day fees are a guarantee that he will not lose that much money of any at all after expenses are payed even if he is the PH. Then where they make money is off of the animals. That is what encourages them to work hard. The more animals the happier you are which equals a bigger tip more refrences and more money off of animals. Once again 100 or 200 a day for food alcohol lodging a truck maids etc. Is way cheaper than you can stay anywhere else.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

This obviously would be for the entire package and was just an example.

Fair enough if you're talking a total package, but it wasn't so obvious as you included day fees in your post. I think that has led to some confusion here in this discussion......a mixing of terminology and not keeping daily rates / trophy fees separated.

I only speak for myself here and not Serapa Safaris, but if I was an outfitter there's no chance I'd offer a no daily rate hunt without some minimum spend. That is just inviting yourself to get taken. No provider of any type of vacation that I know is going to offer you free room, board and use of staff for your various needs hoping they'll first make up their costs and then finally realize a profit in you paying for other activities/products they offer.

I'm not interested nor do I think any of the outfitters expect to put all the risk on the client as you suggested in an earlier post. But I am quite certain they don't want to take on all of the risk either. As mentioned if a client shows up for a 7 day hunt paying the current average daily rates, the outfitter isn't making much money if the client doesn't take any animals. Certainly not enough to make it worth his effort. That alone seems like a reasonable amount of risk on his part. Add to that that you can lock in your prices generally speaking up to two years in advance, that seems like additional risk to me.

Blah blah blah, I guess I could go on forever. In the end to me it's all about the bottom line. How many days do I get to hunt, what do I get to take and how much is that going to cost me? Maybe I'm the oddball, but I really just don't care to know beyond my daily rates and trophy fees where each and every dollar goes.

Playing games like this just complicates what I think should be a pretty simple transaction and I'm not sure that either the outfitter or the client sees any advantage.

 

[seattlesetters]

In alot of the cases the outfitter is a PH. But he still has to make enough money to cover the same cost. I don' expect anyone to work for free. The way I see it day fees are a guarantee that he will not lose that much money of any at all after expenses are payed even if he is the PH. Then where they make money is off of the animals. That is what encourages them to work hard. The more animals the happier you are which equals a bigger tip more refrences and more money off of animals. Once again 100 or 200 a day for food alcohol lodging a truck maids etc. Is way cheaper than you can stay anywhere else.

But it is the outfitters who are offering these packages, and potential clients who seem to not want them all that much. I think they’re viable, and was just trying to help the OP out.

 

[BRICKBURN]

It comes down to a long standing practice in business.

Loss Leader Strategy
A business strategy in which a business offers a product or service at a price that is not profitable for the sake of offering another product/service at a greater profit or to attract new customers.

It is a method of breaking into a market and gaining notoriety.

If it turns into a bait and switch and solely an arithmetic game, then anyone with a grade 5 education is going to catch on quickly enough.


Seems the slick marketing works for some folks.

Back in 2007, Prince released his 32nd studio album.

It debuted at number three on the U.S. Billboard chart. But when Prince released it in England, he chose to market it in an unusual way.

He struck a deal with London's Daily Mail newspaper.

A copy of his new CD was stuffed into 2.8 million issues of the paper's Sunday edition. As Chris Anderson breaks it down in his superb book, titled, FREE, Prince lost money on the deal, strictly speaking.


He charged the Daily Mail 36 cents per CD as a licensing fee, instead of his customary $2 dollars. So instead of making $5.6 million, Prince incurred a loss of $4.6 million.

But he had a plan.

As a result of the excitement and publicity the free CD generated in the newspaper, Prince sold out 21 shows in a row at London's O2 Arena.

Let's do the math on that, shall we?

Prince lost $4.6 million licensing his CD to the Daily Mail. The gross on his 21 sold-out shows was $23.4 million. Net revenue to his Purple Highness:

$18.8 million dollars.
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/undertheinfluence/loss-leaders-br-how-companies-profit-by-losing-money-1.2801812

 

[npm352]

I think it probably adds up in the end to be pretty similar.

The biggest plus would be for something tough like a leopard. Even if its is more of a 25/75% split daily/trophy rather than the normal 75/25. It says a lot about an outfitter who will take that risk because it tells me they think they can get a tom on a bait. But I get it because what happens when someone comes and then decided he does not like sitting in a blind in the chilly darkness....or the guy who is too out of shape to track elephant all day. This is probably why we do not see more of these for harder to get dangerous game. There are enough people out there that are such poor hunters, or unenthusiastic, or just plain lazy, that the outfitters would have to factor that in for their bottom line.

I think the idea is nice for plains game for sure, but the risks arent aren't as big. But...I do appreciate the idea and anyone who would do that.

 

[Dr Ray]

I'd say the challenge in what you're proposing is in the part of both the outfitter and client being honest about what they offer and want. The outfitter in this situation must be honest about what he wants as he's the one taking the risk. The client can talk all day about all the animals they're after, but at the end of the day he isn't taking as much risk with a no minimum no day fee hunt.

Having been involved in the industry for a few years now on the outfitters side of the table at the booth, the vast majority of hunters aren't going to come in bs'ing about what their plans are, they have a list and may even add to it once on the ground. But there are those few hunters who are in it completely for themselves and the outfitter making a profit is of no relevance. So what does the outfitter do at the end of a seven day, no day fee hunt and the hunter has taken one animal?

No outfitter who has spent a fortune on housing, vehicles, staff etc = no hunting!