Your Thoughts: Free Daily Rates?

[Buckdog]

I have hunted with no day fees and I love it ! the PH/oufitters and I agreed to a price list for critters and the quality of trophies that I was looking for ahead of time that was fair to all. I compared those offers to packages and offer with day fees and trophy fees and they were about the same for the same quality animals. I felt good about it because they clearly knew ahead of time what I was looking to harvest, told them how much I had to spend and then the risk was on them to find those critters and they did and I harvested them, pd them.
I think one of the big mistakes a newbie can make is to not consider the quality of animals being put on offer and clearly communicating your expectations ahead of time as they do not put trophy quality animals in cheap package hunts they just cant the higher quality cost them more time and money aka the no free lunch syndrome. lots of animals especially in RSA are sold by the inch in the high fence like sables sometimes to the 1/4 inch!

 

[Buckdog]

I feel like this is a loaded question. I think no day rates are a fantastic opportunity for new hunters who plan to shoot a bunch of animals. I think it works out well for the Outfitter and the hunter as it takes some financial pressure/risk off the hunter but also allows the outfitter to make money as well.

I think for some one who is targeting one or two species this probably isn't a good deal for the outfitter.

I personally would rather have a reasonable day rate and then middle of the road trophy fees. I feel this presents the best value while minimizing pressure on both parties.

The logic above applies almost entirely to RSA. I know Zambia, Zim, Moz and Tanzania have a completely different set of costs due to infrastructure or government fees.

In regards to Leopard, I would like to see lower day rates and higher trophy fees. I think the hunter needs to be honest with the outfitter and state they are specifically focused on nothing but leopard. I would rather have a low day rate and a 15k trophy fees, then a normal day rate and a 5k trophy fees. But that is just my opinion, and don't have enough insights to the costs to know if this is financially feasible.

totally agree on leopard when I am seeing 20-25,000 in day fees and $5,000 trophy fee I think it is ridiculous and screams out hey I don't care if you get a leopard or not I am still getting $20,000 or more of your money and walking away with a big profit and all risk on hunter. and lets not forget another $5,000 to shoot cull animals for bait! I posted looking for a leopard hunt but you might guess I wont be doing it anytime soon give the current state of the game

 

[Brent in Az]

Maybe some outfitters are just using it to fill in gaps in the hunting schedule.? A break even price point to avoid down time, and keep the PH's busy.? I'm just guessing.

As long as a good hunt is provided, no corners are cut, and everything is spelled out up front. I don't see any problem with it.

 

[Royal27]

Maybe some outfitters are just using it to fill in gaps in the hunting schedule.? A break even price point to avoid down time, and keep the PH's busy.? I'm just guessing.

This is what I'm thinking. And as you'd expect the outfitters who have done the free days offer seem to be those who compete primarily on price. Bookings down, need to drop price to book more. It's their primary lever.

I think one of the big mistakes a newbie can make is to not consider the quality of animals being put on offer and clearly communicating your expectations ahead of time as they do not put trophy quality animals in cheap package hunts they just cant the higher quality cost them more

Fantastic point.

 

[PHOENIX PHIL]

I have hunted with no day fees and I love it ! the PH/oufitters and I agreed to a price list for critters and the quality of trophies that I was looking for ahead of time that was fair to all. I compared those offers to packages and offer with day fees and trophy fees and they were about the same for the same quality animals. I felt good about it because they clearly knew ahead of time what I was looking to harvest, told them how much I had to spend and then the risk was on them to find those critters and they did and I harvested them, pd them.
I think one of the big mistakes a newbie can make is to not consider the quality of animals being put on offer and clearly communicating your expectations ahead of time as they do not put trophy quality animals in cheap package hunts they just cant the higher quality cost them more time and money aka the no free lunch syndrome. lots of animals especially in RSA are sold by the inch in the high fence like sables sometimes to the 1/4 inch!

You had a reasonable expectation going in and got what you paid for. So it worked in that case. And you make a very good point regarding trophy quality.

To @Royal27's point I believe he made earlier in this thread, let's say you were targeting a big kudu and it was really your only target. Or even just a short trophy list, but for larger representatives. How can anyone expect on say a 10 day hunt for the outfitter to make money much less not lose money solely on a $2000 Kudu and a $1000 wildebeest?

I've not really paid attention to these no daily rate offers to know the details. But if this is becoming a standard practice, I would have to believe there is a minimum spend that is based on the number of days hunted. So how does that really translate to no daily rates?

 

[Royal27]

So how does that really translate to no daily rates?

Simple, it doesn't.

@Buckdog definitely had a different deal. He let expectations be known, then worked the deal, as it should be in order to get what you want.

Try and get what he did with the offers made here and see how well you do. Better yet, sign up for one of these deals, then go over there with Buckdogs expectations, uncommunicated. You'll likely come home without an animal, and having paid the minimum required amount, which would almost certainly have been higher than the day fees at the same place.

That's why I call this a gimmick and nothing else. Buyer beware.

 

[Brent in Az]

Any outfitter that advertises those hunts here, would probably realize the epic amount of negative backlash that would ensue, should an AH client feel they were taken advantage of.

 

[Royal27]

Any outfitter that advertises those hunts here, would probably realize the epic amount of negative backlash that would ensue, should an AH client feel they were taken advantage of.

Let me clarify.

I don't think the client will be taken advantage of directly and purposely. They are getting exactly what they are paying for, most likely.

By buyer beware I mean that they need to be aware of what it is they are paying for, and what they want. Its important that those things line up. Looking back there are things I'd do differently if I'd known then what I do now (and had listened more to others experience), but only one time did I ever feel screwed purposely and directly.

 

[LivingTheDream]

I think the expectations part is on the client. I think this is two fold - the client needs to be able to communicate that to the outfitter/PH but also must be prepared to not necessarily get his animal. Meaning I want to kill a 60 inch kudu (I don't but for example purposes) and the outfitter says we can get 58 or 59 if we get lucky and I agree to this. I need to be prepared to be unlucky as well and passing on 52, 54, 56, and even possibly a 57 inch kudu. If I shoot the first 54 inch Kudu, I can't necessarily be upset with the outfitter/ph.

I was talking with a PH who had a client say he wouldn't shoot anything unless it was SCI gold medal...the PH agreed and the first 3 animals no problem...the client shot a zebra and immediately asked if it was SCI gold? The PH was dumbfounded and didn't know what to say. I tell this story as I think we as clients need to have reasonable expectations as well.

I know on some of the packages or guys with a long checklist there is a lot of pressure on the PH to make it happen. Sometimes this results on not passing on good representative trophies instead of holding out for something better. How many us of have heard, "we can do better"? I literally just met with my PH last night, I told him my top 2 and said if we get that done, I will take what Africa gives me. He immediately smiled said we are going to have a lot of fun.

 

[LivingTheDream]

I should probably caveat my earlier post that I think the no day rates is good for a first timer. I think the first time in Africa the amount of animals can be overwhelming, I also think that Africa is an addiction. I said my first time was a one time, lifetime trip and I will hopefully maybe probably go back one or two other times but who knows when. Well this will be my 3rd trip in 4 years. As I am planning my third trip, I am already planning my 4th as some animals will probably slide to that trip. I realize this is not in everyone financial budget to do this and I am very fortunate but I don't want anyone to feel pressure to shoot something thinking they will never get back. With the no day rates, my concern would be that the person would feel pressure to shoot.

 

[billc]

Its as simple as another way to market hunts. If the price list you hunt from is the standard website list then you can make it work out cheaper then some package deals offered. More then likely anymore it is not much different then some of deals offered with a lower day fee and discounted trophy list. But it does give you the freedom to hunt what you want over a standard package.

I think once again some over think why some do it. That being said I am not a fan of free days but someone jacks up there trophy list from normally what is posted on there website.

The trick is finding the amount you must charge in total amount of animals that need to be taken to work for both party's in the deal. From what I have seen most have a certain total amount that must be spent to get the free day fees.

As always it comes down to looking everything over and talking to the right people to make it all work. From some of what I have read on here some people need to talk to other people.

As for the leopard deals. One just need to see what work goes in to getting someone a good chance at a cat. If you would do that amount work for 5000 god bless you but I know most would not. Is there a better model then what is out there I am sure there is. Neither outfitter or client should have all the risk but some have taken it just a little to far I Believe. Maybe some were around 8000 to 10,000 on a 14 day hunt with a fair trophy fee based on area would work. But after all it is hunting and I myself don't know any Ph that would not go all out to try and earn his money or get a client a cat.

 

[Royal27]

Example:

Both below were taken from the deals and offers section. For comparison sake I've used the package hunt animal list for the zero day fee hunt.

Package Hunt (does not mention if observer included or not)

• Seven hunting days - $4800
• Kudu
• Gemsbok
• Blue Wildebeest
• Springbok
• Warthog
• Blesbuck

Zero Day Fee Hunt (observer included, assuming minimum is met)

• Kudu - $2250
• Gemsbok - $1200
• Blue Wildebeest - $950
• Springbok - $390
• Warthog - $350
• Blesbok - $450
• Total - $5590

The zero day fee hunt is unclear as to the minimum requirements on AH, but if you look at the offer on the outfitter website there is a $5000 minimum trophy fee requirement, which if not met will result in day fees being charged at $350 for the hunter and $150 for the observer.

 

[jeff]

I've had 3 hunts from two different AH sponsors with exceptional low day fees and their trophy fees were the same as the web site except once where they even discounted some trophy fees. All three very good hunts. If they own their own ground and lodge they don't have to book at other places they still have costs of running their own place whether they have hunters or not, even more so if they are also the PH. There used be and old saying that $250 is better than no 50. Some money coming in is better than none!

 

[JustinC]

Unless an Outfitter has a specific deal on a specific animal or species, how does an Outfitter advertise his operation or attract interest - apart from being active on forums or having many years in the trade?

IMO The easiest way of getting our "brand" noticed/advertised on a forum like AH or fill in available dates is to offer packages or deals such as " no "day fees. So yes, its a gimmick but I'm pretty sure that if you ask most Outfitters, they would prefer working with the client to prepare a wish list rather than a general, monotonous, discounted package used to attract clients in the hope of repeat business or referrals.

I don't think there any many Outfitters out there looking to screw anybody, just looking for business to feed their families and tend to their obligations...

Just my 2C...

 

[Hank2211]

Never liked "no day rate offers" and suspect I never will.

To me, it smacks of (i) desperation or (ii) smoke and mirrors. I have no desire to hunt with anyone who is either desperate or engages in the latter.

I've also run into some people who have taken advantage of such an offer, and used it to have a nice vacation, all expenses paid, while shooting a very small number of animals, thinking 'oh what a smart fellow I am'. I don't like those kind of people either. I like a good deal, but I don't like thinking I'm taking unfair advantage of someone.

If you have something of value to offer - hospitality, accommodation, services - and game - price it honestly and fairly. I understand completely if you have an over-abundance of impala you might offer some of the weaker specimens as part of a package deal at an effectively lower than market price. No problem with that at all.

But if you're saying that there is no day rate - 'free accomodation' and then you increase the trophy prices, I think that's not entirely honest - it's not free at all, and I assume you're hoping someone won't have done their due diligence and will be taken in by the offer. And if you haven't increased your trophy fees, well, then you're desperate and you'll either be out of business by the time I get there, or you've cut back in so many places to keep the place afloat that I don't want to be there.

 

[fourfive8]

My thoughts when I see any form of "deal" include: trying desperately to get business because of marginal product, starting up new business, heavy competition in saturated market. A simple loss leader for any of or any combination of above reasons. My first thought is usually suspicion.

 

[johnnyblues]

I don't like the smell of no daily rates. Give me reasonable day fee's, good accommodations ,good food and quality animals. Everyone has no make a living. No day fees sounds desperate. On the other hand I think some of the daily rates can be outrageous too where I feel I am just being taken advantage of. Specially on leopard hunts. The idea of paying for baits really annoys me. There's always lots of game meat in camp. Just my two cents.

 

[LivingTheDream]

@johnnyblues To your point. I don't mind paying for pre-baits as I think it gives the best change of success but I had an outfitter tell they prebait/bait all year as a selling point. In the quote he then charged for prebaiting per bait per day...kind of confused me.

Leopard is tough, there is no slam dunk or guarantee in hunting them and I understand that. It is a tough balancing act and to @billc point, I guess if I didn't think my outfitter was going to try his hardest to get me a cat regardless of trophy fee why am I hunting with him.

Maybe we have access too much information.

 

[jeff]

I've never had no day fees but I've had day fees as low as $100 a day and had a very good hunt without inflating trophy fees!

 

[johnnyblues]

@johnnyblues To your point. I don't mind paying for pre-baits as I think it gives the best change of success but I had an outfitter tell they prebait/bait all year as a selling point. In the quote he then charged for prebaiting per bait per day...kind of confused me.

Leopard is tough, there is no slam dunk or guarantee in hunting them and I understand that. It is a tough balancing act and to @billc point, I guess if I didn't think my outfitter was going to try his hardest to get me a cat regardless of trophy fee why am I hunting with him.

Maybe we have access too much information.

That's my point Mike. No one per baits all year at least not to my knowledge. Yes I agree pre baiting gives you a big advantage. Still there's plenty of game meat around in camp..Ok so they don't sell it to restaurants as most do. The cost of the leopard hunt more than makes up for that "loss". IMO