Would you consider booking with a hunting outfitter who is not a member of PHASA?

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I always find it quite interesting that those who constantly ask what PHASA does for them has never been a member, nor have they ever been to an AGM.

On the other side, the misconception or rather warped perception that PHASA is a big pie in the sky, taking decisions on your behalf is quite misinformed.

PHASA is it's members, it's members decisions are relayed by its Exco which was elected by its members, Exco can only do what we allow them to do and or say.

I have scanned through some of the replies above and have read some strong opinions with regards to PHASA, all outfitters are PH's, it's that simple, the reason why there are less ph's (non outfitters) is quite simply put the outfitters fault, they are the ones that are too slap gat to encourage their PH's to join.

Quite simply put, if you prefer not to hunt with a PHASA MEMBER you have nothing, should something go wrong, but that's your choice and that's fine.

I can quite honestly state the following, I refuse to employ a ph that is not a PHASA member and if he is not one I have been known to pay their subs.

PHASA has some exciting developments, quite simply put they are the only SAQUA approved professional body for the industry with governments approval (the only) they are the only one who can (and it will be implemented soon) supply PH's with the appropriate professional designation (as with many other industries)

This will be a get on or get left behind, kind of deal but be aware that when the proverbial brown stuff hits the fan, that those who hunted with a professional body member have a leg to stand on, this is not a matter of opinion but rather sound advice.

Dave thanks for all your hard work in the EC.

My best always

 

[enysse]

I thinks its perfectly fine not to belong to any organization and still be a great PH or outfitter. Ethics and moral conviction will always be at the forefront. A good person will always do the right thing and an unethical person will do the wrong thing.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Enysse I don't get it, everyone hunting Zim, Tanz, Moz, Bots and Namibia are encouraged by their associations to hunt with the recognized professional bodies members, for obvious reasons as stated by the various associations, it's fine it is each clients prerogative, just be very aware, that if it goes wrong a client has no leg to stand on, not DSC, or SCI can help , all info is scrutinized by the associations if the outfitter or ph was a member and disciplinary hearing follow.

Fact: If there is no association/professional body there is no route to follow, the client is screwed, then the above stated philosophies and thought trains really come into play, and the we sit and say if only we did this or that.

My best always

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

I always find it quite interesting that those who constantly ask what PHASA does for them has never been a member, nor have they ever been to an AGM.

On the other side, the misconception or rather warped perception that PHASA is a big pie in the sky, taking decisions on your behalf is quite misinformed.

PHASA is it's members, it's members decisions are relayed by its Exco which was elected by its members, Exco can only do what we allow them to do and or say.

I have scanned through some of the replies above and have read some strong opinions with regards to PHASA, all outfitters are PH's, it's that simple, the reason why there are less ph's (non outfitters) is quite simply put the outfitters fault, they are the ones that are too slap gat to encourage their PH's to join.

Quite simply put, if you prefer not to hunt with a PHASA MEMBER you have nothing, should something go wrong, but that's your choice and that's fine.

I can quite honestly state the following, I refuse to employ a ph that is not a PHASA member and if he is not one I have been known to pay their subs.

PHASA has some exciting developments, quite simply put they are the only SAQUA approved professional body for the industry with governments approval (the only) they are the only one who can (and it will be implemented soon) supply PH's with the appropriate professional designation (as with many other industries)

This will be a get on or get left behind, kind of deal but be aware that when the proverbial brown stuff hits the fan, that those who hunted with a professional body member have a leg to stand on, this is not a matter of opinion but rather sound advice.

Dave thanks for all your hard work in the EC.

My best always

Great to have you back Jaco!

The following quote comes to mind:


“Better to have, and not need, than to need, and not have.”

― Franz Kafka

 

[TokkieM]

LeopardsValley the only confusion surrounds the ever changing numbers and percentages you are posting.

H Jaco, nice to have your point of view and honesty regarding the matter here. As you rightly state. I have never been a member or attendant a AGM, but I have also never asked the question "What can PHASA do for me?" I believe ones reputation should speak for it self, I am fortunate in that my clients keep coming back and getting more each year, not because who I am associated with, but because of who I am and the service I deliver. I have no issue with PHASA, I suppose I take it just as personally when PHASA members state that booking with them is a guarantee that they will not encounter problems and that PHASA members by association deliver a better service and or hunting experience than non members do. There are a few examples on AH were PHASA has not helped individuals who have approached them with a problem regarding a member of PHASA, whether their claims are true is not for me to judge, it is concerning though that the same names do seem to pop up. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link and if you follow a policy of "Self policing" you will have members abusing the system, that goes for any association,it is always the actions of the minority in a association that reflects poorly on the majority.
I have been in the fortunate/unfortunate position of taking over a client let down by a PHASA member, in the end it reflects poorly on the whole industry, not just PHASA. I agree with you that the right channels and procedures should be followed during a disciplinary hearing, be it PH or Outfitter, yet it seems as though it is very hard to disbar a member even if they do transgress PHASA code of conduct. It would be interesting to see the how many disciplinary actions led to disbarment in the past 3 years.
I am also in the fortunate position to have spent many hours discussing PHASA membership with PH's around a fire, I was surprised to find that some of them were encouraged not to become PHASA members by the very PH institutions they qualified through, this is despite the school being a member of PHASA, if this is the case then surely there must be a good reason for it?

I have exclusively made use of the service PHASA delivered regarding importation of clients hunting rifles into South Africa for the past 4 years and have never had a problem (contrary to not supporting PHASA), but some of the PHASA members replies on here have directly led to me reconsidering that option.

Once again,thanks for the input Jaco.
All the best.

 

[daved]

I seem to have upset you somehow HUNT HARD.
I'm sorry for that.

You being involved in hunting in SA need to join the association and bring that passion to the table to help better it.

It's the individuals in the organization that drive it, not the name.

Pleasant day to you

 

[TokkieM]

No hard feelings LeopardsValley, we all get a bit hot under the collar now and again. It is nice to see men stand up for what they believe in, two different roads to the same objective. Making SA a preffered hunting destination.
I will buy you a cold one at PE airport if we run into each other there.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I think this discussion has led to a dead end, I would be very surprised as to hunting schools suggesting to PH's not to join especially if those school directors are members of PHASA, as it would IMHO, place those very school directors judgement under scrutiny, if they were to be respected members of PHASA surely they should man up and voice their opinions with regards to their advise but more over their obvious issues with PHASA or me as I am a member.

Furthermore, I would advise us to stop speculating with regards to diciplinary procedures or rather their outcome, I am sure you would get a solid answer to your question, if you requested one, if it was enough of a concern to voice a public opinion, I do have the adress and I am sure a personal visit to their offices, would provide some closure.

I do believe it is an extremely irresponsible act and utter poor judgement to advise to not be a member of PHASA.

As a PH/Outfitter, one is segregating one self, from a direct line of information, and as a professional you are tossing your vote out the window, all non members can personally provide myself and Dave, Marius, Alex, Jacques, Hannes, Oom Johnny, Louis and some others just to mention those here on AH a free braai and a ton of beer as we the members of PHASA decide what route this industry is taking, yes, ultimately we decide over what happens in an industry you are involved in.

As mentioned above it is becoming a case of either one will get on the wagon or you'll get left behind, and hope that others make the right decisions for you.

As for not hunting with a PHASA MEMBER, well there are more issues with non members than with actuall members, and the point still remain, would you like a chance of at least getting a disciplinary hearing, or just nothing at all, this is not a difficult decision to make, or rocket science.

My best always

 

[TokkieM]

Jaco, PHASA and its members are very quick to say report any wrong doing of its members, that then puts it in public interest does it not,especially if PHASA and its members publicly as put here advocate the advantages of hunting with a member. It is not neccesary for me to travel to South Africa to find out how effective their dissiplinary action is, they make the anouncements on their webpage. You as a member should know that.
PHASA is one of a few associations that play a part in the industry as a whole, there are many others, PHASA however is the only one trying to muscle in on a free market system by putting non members down.
You say that you are incharge of the hunting industry, then the minority are controlling the majority which is a very skewed principal in a democratic society. Of the whole total PH/Outfitter count in SA, what percentage do PHASA members represent?
Useing strong arm tactics and threats to enforce membership will end badly and honestly reflects poor management principals. If you cannot convince membership by a common goal and objectives towards improvement you will fail. You are preaching with fire and brimstone to force business PHASA's way, I hope that works for you.
The initial question was how important PHASA membership is to the avarage international client, in the US it may be 50%-70% part of the decision making process, but ask the avarage European hunter and they dont have a idea what PHASA is, with the replies recieved here I intend to keep it that way. It is really disconcerning that PHASA members not only see it fit to use strong arm tactics but also humilliation by its members to get a point across. I can tell you this, no one is bigger than the industry itself, if PHASA does eventually rule the roost my business will not be heading to South Africa.

Thanks for your and the others input and clarifying some real issues.
All the best.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Noted, I am unsure as to who was bullied where?
Strong arm? Humiliated?

I believe I have been factual and quite diplomatic.
I have merely sketched the other side of the coin, as the other was presented here.

I believe to questions remain:
1.)must you only book with a PHASA MEMBER?
No you are not forced to do so but be aware of the advantages in booking with one (which are very real).

2.)must a PH/outfitter by law be a member of PHASA.
No there is no regulation that states this, but once again it has more advantages to it than disadvantages, and as a responsible ethical, active professional individual and hunter I firmly believe it is our duty.

My best always

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Noted, I am unsure as to who was bullied where?
Strong arm? Humiliated?

I believe I have been factual and quite diplomatic.
I have merely sketched the other side of the coin, as the other was presented here.

I believe two questions remain:
1.)must you only book with a PHASA MEMBER?
No you are not forced to do so but be aware of the advantages in booking with one (which are very real).

2.)must a PH/outfitter by law be a member of PHASA.
No there is no regulation that states this, but once again it has more advantages to it than disadvantages, and as a responsible ethical, active professional individual and hunter I firmly believe it is our duty.

My best always

 

[billc]

There was a question asked on this thread about booking with a phasa member or non phasa member.If I was some of the guys posting on this thread I would look at the totals.May just give you a good idea what it means to must of us as clients.

I for one dont need some kind of membership to help decide who I hunt with.I did not ask any of them if they were or not.I can honestly say all my hunts I did were great.Maybe I got lucky hunting with 4 different places or maybe doing your homework works well to.

As a client it means nothing to me but as a outfitter you think it helps you then become a member.Be proud of being a memeber but dont look down on guys who are not.They may have there reason for it.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

Correct billc maybe you did, there are many good outfitters that are non members.
It is quite simple as a client you can book were you like, my reasons have been stated above but it stands like a pole above water and without argument that PHASA is the only professional body in the industry with PROFESSIONAL BODY STATUS.

As outfitters and ph's it is our duty to be influential in our industry and to fight for ethical and legal hunting.

By not being a member, I am abstaining from voting on important policies and I am refraining from working with nature conservation in regulation amendments I am effectively neglecting my duty as a outfitter and PH in our industry.

That is not the way to go....and in the long run to the detriment of hunting in our country, and the industry we support our families out off, that is quite simply put the long and the short of it.


As a client you can hunt where you like, but we simply can not neglect the realities.

My best always

 

[billc]

Jaco, I think one thing that could help is if phasa really reached out to new memebers or outfitters.

I would bet but dont know for sure that since phasa has been around.That there is the good old boy network in place or has strong say on what happens with phasa.It just happens over time with most groups I have seen.When people look at a group and they hear or see that is what is going on they lose the taste to join or think they cant get change to happen.

What I see from outside looking in is if phasa was as good as some try and make it out to be there would be way more outfitters in it.You never get everyone to join anything but from the numbers I have seen posted here there is more non memeber outfitter then members.That would tell me there is something not right.

I have found the truth lies in the middle of everything you hear good and bad.So phasa may do alot of good but I bet there is something that happen not so good.Maybe some kind of trail membership at a very low cost to get new guys in would work.Then they would get to hear the truth from the head peoples mouth and not just what comes down the grape vine.We all no that story changes 10 times till it gets to everyone.

 

[enysse]

Enysse I don't get it, everyone hunting Zim, Tanz, Moz, Bots and Namibia are encouraged by their associations to hunt with the recognized professional bodies members, for obvious reasons as stated by the various associations, it's fine it is each clients prerogative, just be very aware, that if it goes wrong a client has no leg to stand on, not DSC, or SCI can help , all info is scrutinized by the associations if the outfitter or ph was a member and disciplinary hearing follow.
Fact: If there is no association/professional body there is no route to follow, the client is screwed, then the above stated philosophies and thought trains really come into play, and the we sit and say if only we did this or that.
My best always

I think hunting organization are really great. It can bring people of similar background together to discuss ideas and hopefully better the industry. I fully support PHASA and everyone else. And you are right SCI and DSC are not going to help you out if you get in a pinch.

But it is no insurance you will hunt with an ethical outfitter. Case in point: Out of Africa and Juan Pace....and there are more, your still have to check everyone for moral convictions to do the right thing for their client.

 

[KWALATA SAFARIS]

I don't think we can make a broad statement with regards to PHASA not reaching out to outfitters and PH's, this is a constant program, I can tell every single member on this forum that right now.

As for the old boys club, I think if everyone knew my back ground and my previous opinions of 13 years ago with regards to PHASA, they would know that this use to be my opinion, as well, and yet today I am a membership driver and full supporter of PHASA and all the good we do in the hunting industry, we are by far the largest professional hunting organization in the world, and most definitely the most dynamic.

As mentioned earlier 90% of all rotten outfitters are non members, this has been proven.

As for membership drives, there are various incentives in place and they are continually amended and changed to create an even larger advantage to potential members

In life there are no guarantees but there are better and safer routes to follow, PHASA is that route.

My best always

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Only issue I have with PHASA, is that I'm always hunting over their AGM in our area. Missed the last 3 years.

 

[Sable123]

Government would much rather sit down with an Association over environmental policies than individuals!! United you stand...divided you fall.

 

[daved]

I must also admit that I was anti PHASA for many years until I was invited to a meeting.

It's definitely not an old boys club, quite the contrary. At my first regional meeting the CEO Adri Kitshoff and then president Hans Vermaak both personally approached me and made me feel very welcome.

Like Jaco , I too am a membership driver and invite anyone to come the regional meetings of any province , we can arrange a lift even.

To all the nay Sayers I send out a Personal invitation, PM me and I will get you in touch with someone close to you .

PHASA is just a bunch of guys who stand together for a great cause, once they stand together they become PHASA . The Professional Hunters Association of South Africa.

 

[TokkieM]

Jaco, you make some claims here that I find very hard to understand without proof of how they were come by.

No matter what you or I say the Poll was started by a PHASA member and if I read the current results correctly only 26% here think they should hunt with a PHASA member to ensure a good Safari. Not a bad result in my opinion unless you take into consideration that this is a dedicated hunting forum, many of the gentleman here have completed several safari's to SA and plan to do so again. Their opinion would carry far more weight with me than that of the general public or one time hunter. So they have spoken and the results are what they are, if I was a PHASA member I would try and understand and interpret the results to improve the future of the association. It is not making any contribution by constantly defending PHASA without substantiating your point or paying attention to well substantiated concerns, trying to undermine the point of view by others by saying PHASA is the best guarantee they have is in poor taste as you belittle the great moments they have had with non PHASA members. If PHASA members don't like the answers they should not try and change the question to suite their opinion and discredit non members, shifting focus to others indicates the inability to change and accept problems within a association.
These are the same points I have on occasion taken up with Adri and others at PHASA and as yet have had no feedback on.

If PHASA has a extensive outreach program to new members there must be reasons why they are not getting the vast majority to join them.

PHASA may be the largest organisation of its kind in the world, but if you take the number of members as a whole of the global hunting industry it is very,very small.

You too have now mentioned 90% of the complaints are due to non members, so I will take it that you are expressing this as complaints PHASA received as you fail to say once again as per the previous post what this percentage is based on. I am posing to you the following example then and no the figures are not correct, it is simply a example. PHASA members are outnumbered by non members at 10 to 1, PHASA receives 9 complaints due to non members and 1 complaint due to a member, this as a percentage of the whole industry means that 50% of complaints are against PHASA members. Without giving members here the whole picture, you are painting a very one sided story. Not taking this into consideration and relying on your statement you admit that 10% of PHASA members have complaints against them, with the small number of members that would concern me as a client. One of the gentleman stated that he has hunted with 4 non PHASA members and has had no problems, this does not substantiate the percentage you put forward, but it is only one case so reading everything into that will not be conclusive.

Another question that does come up then is that if PHASA is so insistent about hunting with their members does it not benefit only the members via financial gain, which I am sure is not simply a by product of membership.

Just like many other members here I have nothing against associations, but just like when booking a hunt, research,reputation and experience is going to be what I base my decision on before joining one.

As I said before, no matter how long you and I or anyone else argue this point, the figures up top speak for themselves.

All the best.