Would you consider booking with a hunting outfitter who is not a member of PHASA?

[daved]

Just for the sake of clarity, can I point out that PHASA is a trade organisation for South Africa and only South Africa and that pretty much every African country that allows hunting has it's own PH licencing system, it's own game laws and it's own PH organisation.

Therefore the vote should apply to booking a hunt in SOUTH AFRICA and not elsewhere on the African continent.

I'm sure most people here will already appreciate that point but some may not.

Further to what SHAKARI says is that currently in SA it is not mandatory to be a member. It is TOTALLY voluntary that an outfitter joins PHASA an organization where HE chooses to hold to an ethical high ground where he will be judged by his peers.
If he gets expelled for misconduct SA law does not restrict him from continuing as yet. Food for thought

 

[enysse]

Further to what SHAKARI says is that currently in SA it is not mandatory to be a member. It is TOTALLY voluntary that an outfitter joins PHASA an organization where HE chooses to hold to an ethical high ground where he will be judged by his peers.
If he gets expelled for misconduct SA law does not restrict him from continuing as yet. Food for thought

I agree a PHASA outfitter, pretty much guarantees you will get your trophies, one way or another...the paperwork can always "be fixed".

 

[TokkieM]

Nice to read through some of the comments here, seems good old fashioned reputations count for a lot.
I do however think PHASA membership is over rated and has become a marketing tool instead of a guarantee. Here is my reasoning, the PH in PHASA stands for Professional Hunter, not Outfitter. The moment these two separate entities are grouped as one you are heading down a road of conflicting interest, further more if you leave the balance of power in the hands of one entity you have a lopsided representation of what really matters. The objectives of a PH and Outfitter are not always the same, this is even more complicated if you consider that in SA you have to be one to become another, many clients see the Outfitter as a progression from PH level, yes many Outfitters still PH, but many more use PH's instead of hunting with clients themselves. Back to PHASA, If say a PH hunts for a PHASA Outfitter and said Outfitter is not doing things the way they should be done to whom does he report PHASA? How long will the above PH conduct hunts for any PHASA Outfitter? It is a counterproductive setup, my opinion is that you have a employer running the union, good for no one except the employer. PHASA relies on membership fees and numbers, just like any other organisation, so more PH's means more money, what would have been better (again my opinion) is that PHASA should have a grading system or training system outside the normal PH requirements, example: Two guys pass the PH exams both with the same experience both with the same pass mark, one joins PHASA the other does not, is he any better qualified to hunt with clients? As for the "at least you have a guarantee with a PHASA member" there are discussions on AH that clearly shows that is not the case, some even noting PHASA has not helped them after 3 years, or PHASA has not replied. Any organisation were you buy membership without being screened or checked up on only means as much as your own honesty, integrity and ability allows. Bad Outfitters and PH's belong to PHASA too, its good PR and part of their scam.

That being said, PHASA does do good work and there are many great Outfitters and PH's that have a passion for hunting that belong to PHASA. There is only one thing that almost always guarantees a client is getting the best he can and that is a good reputation gained through hard work and success.

 

[Bsums]

I don't see it affecting my choice a lot. It is an extra way for an outfitter to say they are good and trustworthy, but I value the reputation and the testimonies of previous hunters over an organization an outfitter may be part of.

 

[adgunner]

Marius, I will make this easy. Anyone can join an organization. It takes a lot of effort to build and maintain a reputation. I researched my outfitter of choice and checked his references before booking. Reputations are hard to build and easy to lose. In the end PHASA membership would only be a plus, not a deciding factor.

 

[Hank2211]

With one exception, membership in PHASA is a necessary but not sufficient condition for booking with an outfitter. So that's a no, I would not normally consider booking with an outfitter that wasn't a member of PHASA (in RSA). Exception is if I had personal knowledge of the outfitter who was not, and even then, I'd want some explanation.

PHASA isn't a guarantee of a great hunt, or even an honest operator, but it does tend to that direction. And, frankly, I think anybody in the hunting business should support their "trade" organizations.

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

Marius, I will make this easy. Anyone can join an organization. It takes a lot of effort to build and maintain a reputation. I researched my outfitter of choice and checked his references before booking. Reputations are hard to build and easy to lose. In the end PHASA membership would only be a plus, not a deciding factor.

You checked references and still ended up with a clown.....

 

[adgunner]

Two clowns together makes a circus.

 

[CAustin]

It has not impacted my choice to date! I'm with 35Bore......it is much more important to me to check references. I called the references give on more than one occasion to make sure the outfitter would do what they said. Frankly, on the first safari I didn't even know what PHASA even stood for.

 

[Velo Dog]

It has not impacted my choice to date! I'm with 35Bore......it is much more important to me to check references. I called the references give on more than one occasion to make sure the outfitter would do what they said. Frankly, on the first safari I didn't even know what PHASA even stood for.

I am +1 with CAustin and 35Bore on this except that, it probably would've taken me about six paragraphs to say it.

 

[Bsums]

Two clowns together makes a circus.

Why wouldn't the lion eat the clowns? because they taste funny.

 

[Sable123]

I joined PHASA because I believe organizations like these have the potential and resources to protect the industry and are only as strong as their members. I would want those that abuse the industry and discredit what so many have worked hard for, to be held accountable. Yes it may be a flaw that PHASA can only "punish" its own members and those that are not members and still act in an unprofessional manner carry on without retribution and hopefully that will change in the future.
The organisation may of failed in the past and may fail again in the future, but as a member we can only work together to ensure those failures are rectified and never happen again! The hunting industry is one that needs to be protected, especially when there is so many out there that would love to see it fall. A united voice is what is needed!
If there is something I do not like, I am always under the impression that I can make a difference. Should I fail, I can put my head up and say I tried, instead of complaining without trying to make a difference.
Its not up to PHASA to bring clients to me, that I have to do on my own by being professional, respectful and working my butt off to gain a good reputation.

 

[TokkieM]

I joined PHASA because I believe organizations like these have the potential and resources to protect the industry and are only as strong as their members. I would want those that abuse the industry and discredit what so many have worked hard for, to be held accountable. Yes it may be a flaw that PHASA can only "punish" its own members and those that are not members and still act in an unprofessional manner carry on without retribution and hopefully that will change in the future

http://www.africahunting.com/thread...-pace-mozambique-zimbabwe-south-africa.15591/

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

http://www.africahunting.com/thread...-pace-mozambique-zimbabwe-south-africa.15591/

Don't paint everyone with the same brush. Everyone who argues your argument, uses the above case. ALL THE TIME. I don't use PHASA as a marketing tool, but because they promote South Africa as the preferred hunting destination. I operate mostly in South Africa. Seems like a good match.

 

[Sable123]

@hunthardsafaris Thanks for this, I had never seen this thread.
Thank you for also proving my point, clearly that this guy is still a member is a fault of the organisation but the members can take it upon themselves to collectively complain directly to PHASA and have him removed. That is the simple thing about an organisation, as one things can be achieved. But divided without the majority, not much is gonna happen and okes like this will get away scott free! Individuals will complain with limited resources but an organisation that acts can have a bigger impact.

All the best
Jono

 

[TokkieM]

Don't paint everyone with the same brush. Everyone who argues your argument, uses the above case. ALL THE TIME. I don't use PHASA as a marketing tool, but because they promote South Africa as the preferred hunting destination. I operate mostly in South Africa. Seems like a good match.

The "Case" reflects PHASA does indeed not dissipline the transgressors within their fold. The frequancy with which the " Case" re- appears indicates that PHASA has not resolved the issue, contrary to their code of conduct. It is also not the only case,just a case in point.

I have no doubt PHASA does good work in certain areas, that was never debated. Just like any other orginisation there are transgressors, being a member does not reflect any abillity or honesty, the same goes for those who choose not to be members.
Who so ever does damage to the hunting industry does damage to us all.

 

[TokkieM]

You are welcome Sable123, did not mean to indicate ingnorance, simply that there are good and bad people within every orginisation, just like the good and bad ones that dont belong to a orginasation. As stated before, cant buy a good reputation.

 

[Sable123]

No worries, I appreciate the discussion. Just such a shame there is morons like this in the industry.

 

[AB2506]

Absolutely. While an outfitter belonging to the local association can be an indication of a reputable operator, or at least be one of the things you take into consideration when researching an outfitter...........it is not always relevant. There are jurisdictions where membership in the local professional outfitters association is mandatory, such as the province of Alberta. Outfitters there get their licence and insurance through that organization, so you can be sure that they are properly licenced and insured because they can't operate if they are not a member of that organization.

In many places belonging to the local association is NOT mandatory and there can be many reasons why people do not join. They may have internal politics that the individual operator cannot tolerate (We see a bit of that in print don't we?) or the organization may have a fee structure that assesses members fees for game shot/numbers of clients that an operator does not agree with, or in the case of a small family business may not be able to afford.

After some 45 years in the outfitting business I can tell you that I know some outstanding operators who do not belong to their local association and want nothing to do with it for one reason or another. It is fair to ask why an operator does not belong to the local association and is in fact a smart question to ask.................because there are times when the answer will assist you in your decision making. There is a big difference between someone who has been kicked out of an organization and someone who has never belonged. There is also a huge difference between someone deciding not to renew a membership because of internal politics or policies the organization has developed that they do not agree with and someone who does not renew to avoid scrutiny by their peers.

Bottom line is be sure of the facts before you pass judgement. Things are not always as they seem.

I wouldn't use Alberta as a shining example of an Outfitter's organization. Many problems. Not properly policing their members, forging licences, and guaranteed licences when game populations have taken a hit and resident tags are reduced. All in all, as an Alberta resident, I have little respect for APOS. IMO a major overhaul is required. The fox should not be guarding the henhouse.

 

[JTEX]

There are some unscupulous members of PHASA, PHASA has done nothing to expell them...........it means nothing to me...........