Why no love for the .358 Win?

[robtattoo]

My biggest problem with the .358 Winchester is the sectional density of the bullet - particular for anything bigger than whitetail or average black bear. Even with the 225 gr bullet, the load is light for caliber with sectional density around .25. That is a prescription for inadequate penetration on larger animals, particular if the presentation isn't perfect or the shot has to drive through heavy bone. Even the the 180 gr .308 reaches a SD of .27. Add to that the rounds low velocity and the penetration issues quickly compound not very far beyond the muzzle.

I know of many, many elk, caribou & grizzly that would, if they could, emphatically disagree.

 

[Red Leg]

I know of many, many elk, caribou & grizzly that would, if they could, emphatically disagree.

I would be interested in those experiences with hunting elk, caribou, and grizzly with the caliber.

I have never used .358 because it has always seemed so less capable than many others. I would also admit that my personal mid-thirties are also in the gun room because of their utility in Africa. Most of those opportunities are best served by penetration - something not enhanced by light for caliber bullets with terrible sectional density. I am personally a fan of the .338 Win Mag, the 9.3, the .318 WR, .338-06 and the 35 Whelan. The .358 doesn't approach their on target bullet performance.

I have no doubt that the .358 would kill elk in the thick stuff. But what about the 6x6 standing in a clearing on the opposite ridge at 350 yards? A caribou is far easier to drop than an elk, but a long week waiting on a herd to show up can come down to a 300+ yard shot at last light on the last evening. I would much rather have a .270. The .358 would be fine for black bear over bait, but the same range limitations would apply to the spot and stalk experiences I have had in BC. With respect to a grizzly or brown bear I am not using a .358 under any conditions. My starting caliber for one of the big brown bears would be a 250 gr bullet from a .338 and my preference would be a 300 gr bullet from a .375.

 

[robtattoo]

I would be interested in those experiences with hunting elk, caribou, and grizzly with the caliber.

I have never used .358 because it has always seemed so less capable than many others. I would also admit that my personal mid-thirties are also in the gun room because of their utility in Africa. Most of those opportunities are best served by penetration - something not enhanced by light for caliber bullets with terrible sectional density. I am personally a fan of the .338 Win Mag, the 9.3, the .318 WR, .338-06 and the 35 Whelan. The .358 doesn't approach their on target bullet performance.

I have no doubt that the .358 would kill elk in the thick stuff. But what about the 6x6 standing in a clearing on the opposite ridge at 350 yards? A caribou is far easier to drop than an elk, but a long week waiting on a herd to show up can come down to a 300+ yard shot at last light on the last evening. I would much rather have a .270. The .358 would be fine for black bear over bait, but the same range limitations would apply to the spot and stalk experiences I have had in BC. With respect to a grizzly or brown bear I am not using a .358 under any conditions. My starting caliber for one of the big brown bears would be a 250 gr bullet from a .338 and my preference would be a 300 gr bullet from a .375.

The guy who talked me around to the .358, Alaska native, Luke Moffat, has to my knowledge at least 8 bears to his name, I'm not sure of ranges & i don't like telling other gent's stories, but at least 1 of them was over 300yds. I know he was shooting 225 Accubonds for a while, but i couldn't say what he used on the bears. His rifle is an ultralight Kimber, cut to 16" & wearing a leupold Vx2 ultralight 2-7x28. The entire rig weighs under 5lb.
I've yet to take anything larger than whitetail with mine, but i dropped this buck at 290 yards. Dead as a wedge on the spot & the cheap 220gn Speer wasn't recovered.

With modern powders & quality bullets, i would have zero hesitation shooting elk out to 400yds with a 220 or 250gn bullet traveling at 2540 & 2480fps respectively. Yes, the BCs & SD isn't great, comparatively speaking, but it's a heck of a lot more effective than i think you're giving it credit for.
I've never been afflicted with 'Magnumitis' thankfully & until i built my 9.3x62, the most 'powerful' rifle i owned was an ought-six & there isn't a thing walking on this continent i wouldn't have carried that for. Never shot anything heavier than a 165 Partition, but I'd happily pack it for a grizzly or brown bear hunt.
Incedentally, Luke's wife killed a monster grizz at 220yds with a little .308. Shot placement & bullet construction are far, far more important that BCs, SD or headstamp.

 

[colorado]

I do want a BLR in 358, maybe I'll buy it for my birthday I've reached my recoil limit with the 500 Jeffery. A 570g bullet at 2300 fps is fine any more it starts to hurt. You're right about shot placement too. A bad shot with a big caliber just makes bears angry.

 

[igotit]

had one in a Savage 99 years ago......great cartridge!

I took a couple moose and a grizzly with it IIRC. Bullets in those days were not of the quality of today's. I loaded some 200 Core-lokts designed for 35 Rem and they were way too soft. Finally, I bought some Norma 250 gr with a kind of silver/nickel jacket......they really made a difference.

Today for a very light knock-around rifle and cartridge, I carry a little Kimber in 338 Federal.

 

[Josh P]

The guy who talked me around to the .358, Alaska native, Luke Moffat

He's probably one of the most accomplished and understated hunters, known mostly on forums*. If he and his wife chronicle their stories in printed and bound form in their old age, sign me up for that addition to the library. Anything they "review", be it a cartridge or a sleeping pad, is at least worth considering. They're the real deal.

*They're probably more widely known these days, but I don't keep tabs like I used to do.

 

[freefall]

I shot 4 or 5 black bears and 2 moose with my BLR in .358. They all fell straight down. My .338 doesn't match that, everything with it I have had to shoot twice.
But you do you.

 

[Alaska Luke]

I have drooled over Luke Moffat's 358. Cool idea. I don't know if he's shot a grizzly with it yet. I think one of his bears was with a 325 WSM. I think he said he shot a few bears with a 308 when he was younger. Lots of old school guys have used marginal guns though. 30-30s used to be popular.

You have to remember that most grizzly bears are not 1000 pounds. My friend shot one with a 308 and 178 grain ELX loads (he grabbed his wife's 308 because his 300 had a broken scope). He got an exit wound and the bear died quickly. I saw the rug, probably a 300 pound bear. Would I suggest a 308? Not really.

Based on stories here and my own experience on caribou and a black bear I would use a 358 on smaller interior grizzlies. But I'd be careful too. If my boys are along I generally grab my 375 just to be extra safe.

 

[Bob Nelson 35Whelen]

I know of many, many elk, caribou & grizzly that would, if they could, emphatically disagree.

@robtattoo
I agree mate if 5 feet of penetration from the front to the rear of a kudu isn't enough with a 225gn accubond I don't know what is. Or a 225gn Woodleigh smashing BOTH shoulders and the head of a femur on a huge zebra stallion isn't enough smashing power I will eat my hat.
If I want more I can go to a 275gn 35 cal and equal the sd of a 280gn 9.3 or a 300gn 375.
Bob

 

[264]

Heres a young sambar Nobby, taken with 358 and 185 gr ACP. @20m front on projectile recovered in membrane between gut and rear leg. Cheers Mick

recovered projectile

 

[steve white]

Mine's coming with me!

Well, my nephew is to be buried with his PawPaw's 35 Rem.

 

[steve white]

I have the original scout style rifle( minus the scope). Mannlicher Schoenauer model 1905 in 9x56 ms. (Actually sits between the 358 Winchester and the 35 Whelen). Weighs 6.5 lbs with 20" barrel and full stock. Manufactured in 1920. Still works now as well as it did then. I have taken deer and wild hogs with it.

Is yours actually .358 bore, or did you get one of several other variants on the 9mm?

 

[steve white]

What is the minimum suggested barrel length for the 358? My Savage 11 Scout is a favorite rifle, but only because of personal reasons and the ergonomics. The .308 chambering does absolutely nothing for me, no rustling of the jimmies whatsoever. Every time I read about the 358, the little Elmer that sits on my shoulders whispers into my ear, "A 358 Scout would do the deed!" The kicker, however, is that this rifle only has a barrel length of 18 inches. If the rifle itself didn't hold any personal value, Id sell it in favor of something else entirely. Keeping it as is isn't a waste, and it wont collect much dust, but that little whisper wont shut up until 3 or 4 more people tell me the barrel is too short.

It's too short! Now screw on that new 2" longer 358

 

[MS 9x56]

Is yours actually .358 bore, or did you get one of several other variants on the 9mm?

Mine was built in 1921 and the bore measures .355. I have to swage 358 bullets down.

 

[MS 9x56]

Mine was built in 1921 and the bore measures .355. I have to swage 358 bullets down.

Sorry 1920.

 

[ldmay375]

I had considered getting a 6mm ruger No.1 bored out to .35 whelen (sorry @Bob Nelson 35Whelen), but I cant get past the .358 Win. There is just something I really like about. Small powder charges, low recoil and hammer-down power in a small light package.

So I bought a beautiful set trigger mauser 98 in .243 that will be rebored by JES to .358, barrel shortened to 22" and thenstock reshaped and checkered to an english style sporting rifle.

But it begs the question, why isnt the .358 more popular? It is such a sweet middle of the road caliber for everything in the lower 48 inside of 300 yards. A short barrel has little effect on its mu,zzle velocity and it is .35 cal so it would hit a little harder than the 30's and 33's in its power bracket. I would venture that in Africa, with a good bullet, it would cover all the bases except dangerous game within its range limitations. But lets be real here, not many hunters take game beyond 300 yards and sighted for 200 yards, a .358 with a 225 grain accubond only drops another 11" at 300, while still carrying more than 1,600 ft-lbs. Not a sluff off by any measure.

I think it has been unfairly relegated to near obsolete status, when in fact it really is aa great, game getting round.

Thought?

For whatever reason the Browning Model 81, steel receiver, 358 Winchester has been a want. I give up on finding one in decent condition at a price that I thought reasonable. A few to several months ago, I bought that rifle in a Japanese 308 Winchester. I thought that sedated the want.

Then today, I walked into the local firearms store and there was the same rifle in 358 Winchester. It was actually in better shape than the previous 308 Winchester. This one does have a Decelerator pad added. It came with a few boxes of factory loads & hand-loads. I bought it.

Reloading dies are ordered. Brass search will be ongoing. Though, I do have 308 Winchester brass to convert if required. I am not decided upon the bullets. I am considering either the 200 or 203 grain Hammer Bullets.

 

[freefall]

Congratulations. I wish I'd kept mine.

 

[rdog]

For whatever reason the Browning Model 81, steel receiver, 358 Winchester has been a want. I give up on finding one in decent condition at a price that I thought reasonable. A few to several months ago, I bought that rifle in a Japanese 308 Winchester. I thought that sedated the want.

Then today, I walked into the local firearms store and there was the same rifle in 358 Winchester. It was actually in better shape than the previous 308 Winchester. This one does have a Decelerator pad added. It came with a few boxes of factory loads & hand-loads. I bought it.

Reloading dies are ordered. Brass search will be ongoing. Though, I do have 308 Winchester brass to convert if required. I am not decided upon the bullets. I am considering either the 200 or 203 grain Hammer Bullets.

I too have though of a 358 Win, or 338 Federal, & even a 35 Remington in a Marlin 336 , but i do have a Ruger 350 REM Mag that just thumps down pigs with 200 g & 225g bullets + about 29 other rifles one must stop some where

 

[ldmay375]

Congratulations. I wish I'd kept mine.

Thank you.
New Hornady brass located and ordered.

I too have though of a 358 Win, or 338 Federal, & even a 35 Remington in a Marlin 336 , but i do have a Ruger 350 REM Mag that just thumps down pigs with 200 g & 225g bullets + about 29 other rifles one must stop some where

Yep, agree on the stopping somewhere. This particular rifle & cartridge combination has been in the back of my mind for decades. I was not planning on the purchase. I was a little in disbelief when I saw this rifle and its condition when I walked in. It had just been put on consignment this morning. I am sure it would have been gone within a couple of days. I thought about it for about 5 minutes, and bought it.
The 350 Remington is a neat little thumper for sure. A considerable step up on the power level to the 358 Winchester. For me, this was a case of the combination, of the right rifle in the right cartridge match.

Hell, if it only sees range range use, I will probably smile every time I grab it.

 

[krish]

I know I have model 81 in 358 winchester. But it is Miroku made light weight. If somebody need one.
Krish