Why did Winchester skip over the 375 Win Mag and 416 Win Mag?

[Northern Shooter]

I was just thinking about this yesterday. After the war, Winchester was focused on pumping out an array of "short" Magnum cartridges that would all feed from a standard length 30-06 action.

They made the 264 Win Mag (6.5)

300 Win Mag (30 cal)

338 Win Mag (338)

And then skipped right over the 375 and 416 families all the way up to .458 WM.

In 1956 the 375 H&H and 416 rigby were the only readily available options in each class, the 416 Rem Mag wouldn't be out for another 30+ years followed by the long action 375/416 Rugers in the 2000s.

Any idea why Winchester skipped over these two classes instead of adding them to their family of short magnums?

 

[mark-hunter]

My guessing.
the logic for 375 H&H behind winchester m70, is availability of ammo.
Make new cartridge in 375, export the rifle to Africa, then what?
Is, for example, 375 Ruger,or 376 Steyr remotely popular as H&H - even today in Africa?

Yes, clients will bring it with their ammo, but locals? I am not sure.
Africa is already flooded with 375 HH ammo.

So, Winchester company needed only to continue production of M70 rifle in 375 HH.
You dont need new 375 when you already have classic that sells well.
Dont fix what aint broken.

Now 416 versus 458.

416, well, the reasoning could be, to make stopper cartridge, and 458 sounds better then 416. At least is more fat!

The problem with 416 rigby is case cartridge length to fit in medium action. One was enough (375 HH) in production line. 416 Rigby OAL is 3.75 inch, 375 H&H OAL is 3.6 inch (just a bit more over 3.34'').
From design stand point this could mean to develop completely new cartirdege without parent case?

So they jumped to 458, which is blown up, straight wall casing (belted) with 375 HH as parent case.
In this way they got maximum possible powder volume, on already something that works. (375 hh case lenght), in the prduction line for magnum m70.

This may very well mean, more economic development project for 458.
A development shortcut of the era?

Remington by 1988 designed 416 rem mag, based on 8 mm rem mag, which is then based on 375 HH, belted case, again.
And filled the gap.

But who knows what was in Winchesters design mind in that time.

 

[318AE]

There were very few 416s extant until Bill Ruger revived it with the RSM. I think there were about 200 pre-war 416 Rigby’s in total - and “416” caliber was only a bolt gun until the relatively recent advent of the 500/416.

The fact that the 416 bore has made the resurgence it has, or really a second chapter, is what is most remarkable.

I’m not sure what was in the minds of Winchester execs and marketeers post war - the fact they made a M70 “African”, tailored to an international safari traveler, to provide an alternative to NE doubles for hunting pachyderms is remarkable. Would be interesting to look at how many 270s they sold these same years, vs 458 win mags.

 

[Northern Shooter]

You're likely right regarding the popularity of the H&H in that time, it had been around for about 50 years by the time the Win Mags were starting to roll out.

I do however believe a long action 375WM / 416 WM released in the 1950s would have gained more traction in Africa than the Ruger cartridges today.

Since Winchester blew out the H&H case for the 458, couldn't that same process be applied to a 416?

 

[CoElkHunter]

The only .416 available at the time was the Rigby and I'm not sure it would fit in a M70 action? In the early '70s, Robert Chatfield-Taylor created the .416 Taylor, which is nothing more than the .458WM case necked down to .416. It was designed to replace the Rigby which was MIA at that time and would fit into a standard length bolt action rifle with the same ballistics as the Rigby. It was SAAMI standardized and both Winchester and Ruger built a prototype rifle each for it. Winchester then dropped the ball by not manufacturing factory ammunition and it became a handloaders cartridge at that point. Apparently, A-Square did offer it as a standard production rifle with their factory ammo available at some point.

 

[mdwest]

^ this

Taylor beat them to the punch on the 416.

The 416 Taylor is essentially a “416 Win Mag”

And the 375 Taylor / 375-338 is essentially a 375 Win Mag (although the 375 Taylor never really caught on like the 416 T did)…

 

[Velo Dog]

It is too bad that Winchester did not manufacture a true magnum sized Model 70 action.
Likewise, it could’ve included a deep magazine, to complement the overall larger action and thereby hold 5 belted H&H diameter cartridges, 4 in .416 Rigby and 3 in .500 Jeffery ?
Lastly, the bolt handle would be best if bent straight down, instead of swept back toward the shooter’s knuckle.
Oh wait …… I just described the ‘98 Mauser Magnum, the Brno 602 Magnum and CZ 550 Magnum actions.

 

[Boyd Brooks]

Norma beat Winchester out of the box with the belted magnum 308 and 358 Norma Mag. That’s why the 300 Win mag case is larger than the others and they made the new 338 because the 35 cal was already made by Norma.

 

[Hififile324]

My late father owned "West Coast Ballistics" in the 50's, 60's and early 70's. His firm manufactured chronographs and other devices for the ammunition industry and gun manufacturers. He told me every time the gun and ammo companies came out with a "new" cartridge it was for one thing and one thing only....sales, profit and marketing power. The .458 was "bigger"! (Not necessarily better).

In my opinion, there was no need for such a cartridge in the U.S. But plenty of U.S. Sportsmen bought them. You can compare it to the car industry of the day too..."Horsepower Race"!

 

[colorado]

They made a limited amount of Big 5 M70s in 470 Capstick. I wish they had stayed with that

 

[Northern Shooter]

It is too bad that Winchester did not manufacture a true magnum sized Model 70 action.
Likewise, it could’ve included a deep magazine, to complement the overall larger action and thereby hold 5 belted H&H diameter cartridges, 4 in .416 Rigby and 3 in .500 Jeffery ?
Lastly, the bolt handle would be best if bent straight down, instead of swept back toward the shooter’s knuckle.
Oh wait …… I just described the ‘98 Mauser Magnum, the Brno 602 Magnum and CZ 550 Magnum actions.

Is the model 70 not offered for a Magnum length action for the 375 and 416 RemMag models?

 

[DLSJR]

Is the model 70 not offered for a Magnum length action for the 375 and 416 RemMag models?

Winchester did offer Pre-64 ‘Express’ actions which were specifically for factory offerings in 300 H&H as well as 375 H&H. I have two rifles that are based on that very action, a 375 H&H and a 416 Hoffman.

 

[Northern Shooter]

Winchester did offer Pre-64 ‘Express’ actions which were specifically for factory offerings in 300 H&H as well as 375 H&H. I have two rifles that are based on that very action, a 375 H&H and a 416 Hoffman.

The Winchester Website still shows the Safari Express in 375 H&H and 416 Rem Mag. Both of which are true Magnum lengths, right?

Unless Velo Dog was referring to 3.75 length actions like the Rigby.

 

[318AE]

My question isn’t why the skipped a short action 375 and 416, but rather why did they make the 458 win mag on a short action? If they had, and were going to maintain the 375 H&H, why wasn’t the “458 win mag” originally a 375 H&H length cartridge - essentially a 458 Lott?

As for a 416, many more rifles pre war were made in 404 (or .423) caliber - they were made by more than just Jeffery. Likewise, I believe WR made more 425s pre war, than Rigby made 416s, likely because of the intermediate action. The resurgence of the 416 is truly remarkable. If Harry Selby’s tracker hadn’t ran over his double, the 416 may be as obscure as the 350 Rigby Magnum….

 

[baxterb]

My question isn’t why the skipped a short action 375 and 416, but rather why did they make the 458 win mag on a short action? If they had, and were going to maintain the 375 H&H, why wasn’t the “458 win mag” originally a 375 H&H length cartridge - essentially a 458 Lott?

As for a 416, many more rifles pre war were made in 404 (or .423) caliber - they were made by more than just Jeffery. Likewise, I believe WR made more 425s pre war, than Rigby made 416s, likely because of the intermediate action. The resurgence of the 416 is truly remarkable. If Harry Selby’s tracker hadn’t ran over his double, the 416 may be as obscure as the 350 Rigby Magnum….

None other than Donald Ker himself ran over Harry’s double. ;-)

 

[mark-hunter]

It is too bad that Winchester did not manufacture a true magnum sized Model 70 action.

It seams there is strong opposition in the industry about that.

Zastava is doing exactly the same - no magnum length action in production. Even now after CZ 550 is phased out, and this part of market is open to take.

Other brands are doing very similar, no magnum lenght actions which triggered short magnum cartridge inventions.

It is the present state of affairs, sadly.

 

[lwaters]

My question isn’t why the skipped a short action 375 and 416, but rather why did they make the 458 win mag on a short action? If they had, and were going to maintain the 375 H&H, why wasn’t the “458 win mag” originally a 375 H&H length cartridge - essentially a 458 Lott?

As for a 416, many more rifles pre war were made in 404 (or .423) caliber - they were made by more than just Jeffery. Likewise, I believe WR made more 425s pre war, than Rigby made 416s, likely because of the intermediate action. The resurgence of the 416 is truly remarkable. If Harry Selby’s tracker hadn’t ran over his double, the 416 may be as obscure as the 350 Rigby Magnum….

They wanted to promote shorter actions to save money and the public bought it. This day and age the a average gun nut can afford a chronograph and they found the magnums didn't have all that much advantage over standard cartridges. There is some advantage when you get to 375 and above. I personally think the 458 Winchester was designed because they also wanted the 264 and 338mag and use the same case. It saved them money

 

[Ryan]

One word- Marketing.

At the time Winchester had the tooling to make magnum length actions for the M70s in 375 H&H and manufactured the ammo to go in them so why waste the money on a whole new cartridge when they were doing quite well as is. As others have mentioned the 416 Rigby was not common. The next step up for dangerous game cartridges was the 450s and larger, which were all rimmed cartridges that worked fine in the doubles H&H and Rigby produced but didn't work in bolt action rifles that Winchester made. So Winchester saw an opening and did what H&H and Rigby didn't. They made a 458 caliber dangerous game cartridge that that worked in a bolt action rifle. Making it fit in a standard (not short) action also allowed them to use a more commonly made action. Then they marketed it to Americans at a much lower price compared to the doubles and made the ammo to go in it.

 

[C.W. Richter]

I'm going to go with Winchester went out of business in 1931 it's been owned by no fewer than a half dozen other companies since then and I'm quite certain that has more to do with it than anything else. Great gun makers built cartridges. Corporate committees either build nothing or nonsense. Read up on the history of Winchester and you will see what I mean. Also read up on Robert chatfield Taylor and how interestingly he passed away after development of his cartridge and just prior to the release of another by a rather large corporation. He may have well been the Tucker of the gun industry. Big corporations are all about keeping costs low and selling as many units as possible. Remington was "much better" at this than Winchester. We have some worked m70 actions and love them. Therefore they targeted the millions and millions of North American hunters at home. I personally know about a half dozen people that prioritized going to Africa, while I know hundreds of hunters in North America. I believe one of the purchasers of Winchester was an ammunition company and they obviously sell a pile of it on the home front. Thank God they do because my trusted old 22 wmr cannot shoot the newer hyper velocity small bullet ammo for s***! There are (and were) a number of 375 and 416 caliber cartridges out there and they probably figured it wasn't worth it financially. If you're big you must unfortunately think like Walmart to survive.

 

[CoElkHunter]

They wanted to promote shorter actions to save money and the public bought it. This day and age the a average gun nut can afford a chronograph and they found the magnums didn't have all that much advantage over standard cartridges. There is some advantage when you get to 375 and above. I personally think the 458 Winchester was designed because they also wanted the 264 and 338mag and use the same case. It saved them money

I agree. Then came their .300WM and Remington their 7mmRM ALL using the same case with the .30-06 OAL.