Why avoid Hornady DG bullets and ammunition?

Just spent the past hour reading this thread. At the end of the day, what I can say is that in spite of certain claims of some posters that Hornady's ability to produce effective, quality bullets, is valid and correct, I personally will continue to use A Frames and North Fork bullets. My rationale is simple, I'm a hand loader and those of you who truly know hand loaders understand there are two types of hand loaders; those who reload to save money and those who are obsessed with perfection, they appreciate the hand loaders overall quest; hand loaders are obsessed with developing the best quality ammunition. The latter group reload because we desire to construct the most accurate and deadly cartridges possible. These hand loaders experiment a lot, we continually tinker with loads hoping beyond hope to find the right combination of brass, bullets, powders and primers that will result in incredibly accurate loads.

Understanding this mindset, its easy to appreciate that the majority of hand loaders who follow this mantra, simply aren't going to compromise their loads with bullets that have a history of negative or compromised performance. The thought of having a hunt ruined because of possible bullet failure is unacceptable.

In spite of Hornady's fight for market share and extensive inventory of product, nothing will change the fact that they offer a compromised product. Those who look for cost savings over quality will continue to buy their product. Those of us who reload and hunt striving for the best product will continue to purchase the best products. Spending an extra $20-$30 on premium bullets is insignificant when you compare that to the total cost of a hunt.
 
I lied. One final comment. I hadn't seen that @sheephunterab had a hunting show until @redleg mentioned it, so out of curiosity I went looked at the page.

Very impressive. And quite a list of sponsors scrolling the bottom. It sure seems to explain a lot.

View attachment 191907
@sheephunterab, I was very disappointed to see this. I have nothing against TV programs having sponsors - that's how they stay in business. And I've watched yours (without knowing it was you) and enjoyed it.

But to engage in a conversation for this many pages, with the tone you have taken, without once disclosing that Hornady is a sponsor of yours, well, unfortunately (and I mean that), that makes me question your ethics. When you have a dog in the hunt, you say so up front. Or so I was taught.
 
@sheephunterab, I was very disappointed to see this. I have nothing against TV programs having sponsors - that's how they stay in business. And I've watched yours (without knowing it was you) and enjoyed it.

But to engage in a conversation for this many pages, with the tone you have taken, without once disclosing that Hornady is a sponsor of yours, well, unfortunately (and I mean that), that makes me question your ethics. When you have a dog in the hunt, you say so up front. Or so I was taught.

Hank I've never made it a secret who I was. The link in my signature takes you right to our Youtube channel and I've posted lots of links to our videos but I've never made a big deal out of it either. I did once try to link to our web page to promote a contest and Jerome removed the post and I've since respected his wishes. To think that me posting on messageboard thread in some way endears me with my sponsors is frankly laughable if you know anything about this industry. They pay to be on TV.....period. All my activities outside of TV are me acting personally and that includes the extensive magazine writing I do where I routinely feature a host of other products...often competitors to my sponsors. I've been at this long enough that I don't need to play games. If you look back through posts on this very board you'll see I was as equally adamant about dispelling myths about TSX and TTSX...two other bullets I have considerable experience with despite them not being manufactured by Hornady. I talk about things I have experience with and keep my mouth shut about those I don't. It should come as no surprise that I have more experience with the products I use a hundred plus days a year.

As for tone.....we read what we want into posts often and tone is the most misinterpreted thing there is in the written word. Once you start taking things personally on a messageboard you should likely step away. Quite frankly I got involved in this thread to bring some possible answers to why things happened and to shed some light on bullet construction and terminal performance...something I have extensive background with. I never once said anyone should shoot a DGX or DGS...just that some of the info being shared quite likely had other possible scenarios to explain the performance. To think that Hornady produces nothing but crap ammo is laughable. Do they produce the only quality ammo? Hardly. There's lots of great options out there but as often happens on messageboards, individual thought gives way to gang mentality. It's definitely not unique to this board. After 18 years in this business I'm not out shilling for sponsors...I use products that work or they aren't on the show. It's that simple. Most products we test for two years before even bringing them on board.

I think this is a great board with some very knowledgeable posters and I've shut my mouth and absorbed knowledge when warranted and opened it and shared some when warranted...nothing more. I sorry my presence here causes some so much angst. It traumatized one person so much that they were "forced" to contact Hornady. This board is a hobby outside of work for me. Hobbies should be fun. With all that said, I'll ask Jerome to remove my profile so order can once again be restored in the jungle.
 
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Hank I've never made it a secret who I was. The link in my signature takes you right to our Youtube channel and I've posted lots of links to our videos but I've never made a big deal out of it either. I did once try to link to our web page to promote a contest and Jerome removed the post and I've since respected his wishes. To think that me posting on messageboard thread in some way endears me with my sponsors is frankly laughable if you know anything about this industry. They pay to be on TV.....period. All my activities outside of TV are me acting personally and that includes the extensive magazine writing I do where I routinely feature a host of other products...often competitors to my sponsors. I've been at this long enough that I don't need to play games. If you look back through posts on this very board you'll see I was as equally adamant about dispelling myths about TSX and TTSX...two other bullets I have considerable experience with despite them not being manufactured by Hornady. I talk about things I have experience with and keep my mouth shut about those I don't. It should come as no surprise that I have more experience with the products I use a hundred plus days a year.

As for tone.....we read what we want into posts often and tone is the most misinterpreted thing there is in the written word. Once you start taking things personally on a messageboard you should likely step away. Quite frankly I got involved in this thread to bring some possible answers to why things happened and to shed some light on bullet construction and terminal performance...something I have extensive background with. I never once said anyone should shoot a DGX or DGS...just that some of the info being shared quite likely had other possible scenarios to explain the performance. To think that Hornady produces nothing but crap ammo is laughable. Do they produce the only quality ammo? Hardly. There's lots of great options out there but as often happens on messageboards, individual thought gives way to gang mentality. It's definitely not unique to this board. After 18 years in this business I'm not out shilling for sponsors...I use products that work or they aren't on the show. It's that simple. Most products we test for two years before even bringing them on board.

I think this is a great board with some very knowledgeable posters and I've shut my mouth and absorbed knowledge when warranted and opened it and shared some when warranted...nothing more. I sorry my presence here causes some so much angst. It traumatized one person so much that they were "forced" to contact Hornady. This board is a hobby outside of work for me. Hobbies should be fun. With all that said, I'll ask Jerome to remove my profile so order can once again be restored in the jungle.

Sheephunterab, maybe I should've followed the link, but I didn't, and I don't think many others did either, at least not until the recent post showing the website. I maintain it would have been helpful if you'd let us know when we were talking about one of your sponsor's products, but that doesn't have to end it. Nor does the "tone" issue. The typewriter is a blunt instrument, all the more so when we rattle off posts, sometimes without a great deal of thought about how they might land (something I have been guilty of myself from time to time).

Having said that, I think your proposed solution is a bit drastic. Everyone here has something to contribute, and especially those who hunt as often as you appear to. So why don't we all take a deep breath, and move on and continue having some fun?
 
The difficulty is that so much is lost in written communication (or may be as verbal communication, spoken in person, is 1/2 the words chosen, 1/2 voice inflection, etc.).
 
I think it all depends on what you are loading, and what you are loading it for..

I've never hunted DG.. and never used Hornady "hunting" bullets of any type.. but I did at one time use their "TAP" rounds in my M4 and their critical defense rounds in my 9mm and .40 pistols and was always pleased with their performance..

I will say that after seeing first hand the difference in performance with barnes ttsx and nosler partitions the past 2 weeks while in SA, that I am 100% sold on barnes ttsx moving forward for African plains game.. the partitions did just fine and accomplished everything I wanted them to.. but the what the ttsx did was simply amazing.. the bullets we recovered showed near flawless performance and almost total weight retention..

were I planning a DG hunt tomorrow.. I'd be looking at 300gr TSX in my .375... I see no reason to consider anything else, whether it be made by hornady, swift, nosler, or anyone else.. Im completely sold on barnes at this point..

See my post on scaling bullet performance.
 
@sheephunterab,

I spent a little more time researching bullet failures as I said I would. I found one report of a 270gr .375 TSX that the hunter was disappointed in. I didn't see a pic as I think it was put in Photobucket and either I wasn't allowed to see it as I wasn't a member of the forum or it perhaps had expired. The gist of what I got was the bullet didn't open. All other failures to open that I read were in what I'd call non-DG caliber bullets. And is one reason why I do not use them. The other being they tend to copper foul my barrels and in fairly short order accuracy will drop off a cliff due to this fouling. I have no doubt however that is not just a function of the bullet, but also of my barrel's diameter.

I found nothing on A-Frames or North Forks when it came to any caliber regarding bullet failure. Perhaps I just didn't do a good Google. I do recall a hunt report here on AH. As I remember it, it was a LDE hunt in West Africa. Hunter was using a .375H&H with an A-Frame. His report was that the bullet penciled thru which would indicate the bullet failed to open. There weren't a lot of details however, so that's a little bit of a jump to a conclusion.

For me when I Google DGX failures, my computer lights up like a Christmas tree. Less so with the DGS, but sill more than I personally care for.

Please see posts following this one with some pictures of both field and lab experience. It will take me a few to get these all posted.
 
So I got my stories regarding Michael and trees a little mixed up. There were actually two stories. The first was a followup shot on a running buffalo bull. As he pulled the trigger and swinging the gun, I can quite easily see how this could happen. The tree was as he reported 3-4 inches thick. The CEB solid passed thru the tree and continued on to the bull hitting him and passing thru and killing him.

This is the onside of the tree:

TREEONSIDE.jpg


This is the offside:

TREEOFFSIDE.jpg
 
The second story was that of a cow buffalo. Michael was in Zim with his son and I believe more on a test hunt with one of his B&M calibers. He shot the cow who was standing behind a tree. He hit the cow on the shoulder with a CEB Raptor. Upon impact the cow did a 180 but otherwise didn't move. As is Michael's practice, he had solids for followup in the magazine. Now how he ended up hitting this tree I can only attribute to one of those moments we have all had of poor shooting.

Whatever the case he shot through a 10" tree, blowing a whole bunch of bark off of. The bullet exited the tree and hit the cow in the stomach, passed thru the rumen and exited. Cow died there.

I believe the bullet impact was on the left side as you look at this picture and traveling left to right.

TREE2.jpg
 
I could post a whole bunch of pictures of North Fork and CEB solids from the testing that Michael did, but I've already put enough time into this. So I'll just put my particular favorite. I think the picture speaks for itself.

NFCPSTREX.jpg
 
And then some Hornady solids. One of these looks a bit like @gizmo's solid out of a lion.

DGS1.jpg
DGS2.jpg
DGS3.jpg
DGS4.jpg
 
Remember reading how complimentary Taylor was about Rigby's .416 solid, in particular the reinforced nose? He'd be absolutely amazed at the thickness of steel in today's solids. And yet, some still fail.
 
How the large firms sell to the unthinking masses:

IMG_5178.JPG


As can be seen, the above is in regard to the 375 Ruger (which is a truly grand cartridge, by the way, the best to burst upon the scene since the 338 Win Mag, in my opinion). What Hornady was getting at with all the hyperbole, I do not know.

(The above is an excerpt from Pierre van der Walt's "African Dangerous Game Cartridges "....easily, easily, easily one of the finest books of its kind).
 
Hello Paul Edwards,

I've only shot one dangerous African animal with Hornady bullets.
So, do take my opinion on DG bullets with a grain of MSG.
Nonetheless, it was the buffalo shown in my avatar here, with the old left and right, from an Army & Navy double, in .450 No2 NE (that I sold to pay off my safari bill).
The bullets were 480 gr Hornady DGX and DGS respectively, leaving the muzzles at 2050 fps and the range was 40 paces.
The soft struck him at the juncture of his throat and brisket, just left of center, nicked his neck bone, badly damaged blood vessels above the heart, tore through his left lung and stopped against a broken rib on that side.
This bullet is shown in my photos.
He dropped to the shot but gathered himself back up to run, obviously not agreeing with the experts that he had just received a very fatal wound.

Soon as there were no other animals in my line of sight (herd was thundering off and at first, all around him as he was running with them), I fired the solid into his right flank, just behind the last rib, at what I say was about 120 paces but the PH said 150 - whatever, (grew up shooting jack rabbits with rifles / revolvers and this practice definitely paid off on my 2nd shot here).

The "solid" passed through about 3 or more feet of buffalo, smashing his spine and tumbling him, as if he hit a trip wire.
He was very dead by the time we arrived at his location, including a small delay while the Tracker threw rocks and sticks at several bulls that had come back around to confront us, the PH ready with solids in his custom CZ actioned .458 3" and me with solids in both barrels of the .450 #2.
Very sadly, I do not have the solid to show for my time and money (miscommunication with the skinners) and so, it is still somewhere along the banks of the Olifants River, Maruli Concession, SA.
By the wound channel, it did not deform much if at all.

The only other animal of any size I have shot with the DGX was a zebra stallion, also at about 40 paces maximum, in heavy foliage.
He was likewise quartering toward me but, nearly broadside.
My soft struck spot on the right shoulder, smashing it, then through both lungs, breaking a rib on the left side, close behind the left "armpit", and stopping just under the skin, showing a distinct lump there.
In fact I nicked my finger examining the lump, as there was a tiny, sharp piece of jacket material sticking through but concealed in the short hair (lesson learned).
That bullet is also shown in my personal photos, within the world's greatest forum here.
A .45 caliber, 480 grain bullet tends to almost always pass through smaller animals such as reed buck, impala and such, even if it is fragile.
So, only two bullets to illustrate my opinion that:
1. Hornady DGX seem to work alright if impact velocity is rather low.
2. Hornady uses malleable steel jackets, guilding metal plated so as not to ruin rifle bores HOWEVER, I feel they should stop forming these thinner toward the tip.
This bullet would be quite good if the jacket was same thickness from base to nose.
3. If Hornady was to bond the core to the jacket, they could probably leave the jacket thinner toward the nose but, if left up to me (and if a frog had wings), I'd still thicken it as mentioned.
4. Since about age 16, (late 1960's), I have used various Hornady bullets, mostly spire point and round nose, in a multitude of calibers, from .224 caliber, through .458 caliber and enjoyed no bullet failures (none).
However, I am not one to use smallish calibers on largish animals, I like rifles and have various ones for various types of game and various hunting conditions.
And so, I feel their old fashioned and dreaded "cup & core" are quite good for things like deer, impala, etc., (f course as always, provided suitable calibers and bullet weights are chosen according to animal hunted, in other words, I prefer a 6.5 bullet of about 140 gr or heavier as my personal minimum on mule deer / wild boar

Parting shot as it were:
If you are not shooting some finicky, stubborn double that, refuses to regulate with any of today's tough, bonded core bullets, and / or the rifle is antique, thereby causing concerns about very stout bullets, potentially loosening the solder bond, between the rib and barrels, I would avoid Hornady softs for heavy game.
If you are using just such a double rifle in say, .375 H&H, I'd be nervous about the velocity threshold.
As for repeaters and single shots, since the Swift A-Frame is almost always accurate in these types of rifles, and since IMO, it is the very best of the best premium softs ever dreamed up, were I to use a bolt action or single shot for DG hunting, when a soft is advisable (such as first shot on buffalo for one example), the A-Frame would be my choice.
Pertaining to close in hunting of large, heavy animals, dangerous or not, I'm no fan of very high velocity, no matter what bullet I intended to use.
IMO, high velocity and pointed bullets are however a very good fit for shooting rodents and small predators at long range.
So, perhaps needless to say, I've zero experience with the .460 Weatherby cartridge.
My life's experiences and opinions are not the Gospel unto all the world.
However, my suggestion on that fast mover, is to not use the DGX in it for heavily built animals.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

Well said indeed. I have suggested penetration code for dangerous game so reloaded and factory ammunition hunters know what the performance will be.
See post on scaling fir bullet performance.
 
DGX/DGS recovered from my lion.
All 5 recovered rounds
IMG_1549.JPG
the solid DGS
IMG_1550.JPG
IMG_1551.JPG
Softs
IMG_1552.JPG
IMG_1553.JPG
 
Hard to believe anyone could argue those performed as intended. My sarcastic nature forces me to point out you probably mis-used them. Firing them at an animal and all.
 

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which East Cape Taxidermist are you referring to? I had Lauriston do my work not real happy with them. oh thanks for the advise on the mount hangers a few months ago. Jim
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We 'll visit Livingstone / Vic Falls for 3 days and 2 nights. Back to Mapcha by car, back to WDH with Airlink (grab my rifles and belongings) and the same day back to Frankfurt.
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Hello Cecil
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