Why all the hate for CBL (Captive-Bred Lion) Hunting?

[Wishfulthinker580]

Ultimately I don’t think appeasing the antis is anyone’s first and foremost concern (or a concern at all). It seems like more than a few members want to make that an issue because it would help the pro CBL argument but it’s just not true.. Getting rid of unethical practices so as to make hunting either less objectionable or more palatable to sensible non-hunting (and voting) public is more like it. CBL has too much bad publicity, hunting in general does too but at least ethical hunting is defensible scientifically and on the basis of conservation. CBL is indefensible. The primary objection is that it’s unethical. It’s just put and take with added negative characteristics.

 

[HankBuck]

How do we Kenya free range hunt
Has not had bait placed where we are to hunt for a month before we show up?

@Flbt - ? I don’t understand what you wrote?

 

[HankBuck]

Ultimately I don’t think appeasing the antis is anyone’s first and foremost concern (or a concern at all). It seems like more than a few members want to make that an issue because it would help the pro CBL argument but it’s just not true.. Getting rid of unethical practices so as to make hunting either less objectionable or more palatable to sensible non-hunting (and voting) public is more like it. CBL has too much bad publicity, hunting in general does too but at least ethical hunting is defensible scientifically and on the basis of conservation. CBL is indefensible. The primary objection is that it’s unethical. It’s just put and take with added negative characteristics.

@Wishfulthinker580 - Agree there is NO Point trying to appease the “Anti’s” they are against ALL Hunting and protest whatever type of Hunting gains the most attention & publicity, once that type of Hunting is ended they will just move on to the “Next” type of Hunting. Having worked in Companies Protested by PETA - very familiar with their tactics and strategy, their end game is END ALL HUNTING along with All Domestic animals bred for food and All Pet ownership ie: “Pet Slavery” as they refer to it. There are many members of PETA that do LOVE Animals but the leadership in PETA is really more extreme and mostly just Hate-People.

 

[HankBuck]

That argument has been made before and I think it’s a foolish one. They might not like any hunting, but whitetail deer hunting doesn’t raise them any money. CBL gives them a fundraising opportunity like no other and it’s completely indefensible by hunters because it’s adds zero conservation value.

@375Fox - I think you know Hunting and logic but you are unfamiliar with “Anti hunting” groups or overly optimistic that they share your logic & ethics. PETA, HSUS, Animal Liberation Front, etc.. only “pretend” to be against certain forms of Hunting and use the emotional word “cruel” to get the ball rolling. They ALWAYS switch targets after they get a “Win”. Maybe right now “canned Lion hunts” are getting the most publicity but next will be Elephants, Rhino dart hunts, Zebra etc.. there will Never be an End - only a New target. Once you give them a Victory (ANY Victory) they use that to brag about their success and solicit more donations for their “Next Crusade” (and there is Always another Crusade planned). Look back and see the success they’ve had with “Fur” - then the progression After that BIG WIN …they went after Leather (and are still going after Leather), they also have tried “Wool” and will keep trying wool — and of course they want to eliminate certain foods: Poultry, Veal, Lamb, Beef, etc…. If You want to appease them be ready to only eat Salad, wear recycled plastic, and live in a dirt hut…. My opinion is NEVER give them an inch !!

 

[Russ16]

@375Fox - I think you know Hunting and logic but you are unfamiliar with “Anti hunting” groups or overly optimistic that they share your logic & ethics. PETA, HSUS, Animal Liberation Front, etc.. only “pretend” to be against certain forms of Hunting and use the emotional word “cruel” to get the ball rolling. They ALWAYS switch targets after they get a “Win”. Maybe right now “canned Lion hunts” are getting the most publicity but next will be Elephants, Rhino dart hunts, Zebra etc.. there will Never be an End - only a New target. Once you give them a Victory (ANY Victory) they use that to brag about their success and solicit more donations for their “Next Crusade” (and there is Always another Crusade planned). Look back and see the success they’ve had with “Fur” - then the progression After that BIG WIN …they went after Leather (and are still going after Leather), they also have tried “Wool” and will keep trying wool — and of course they want to eliminate certain foods: Poultry, Veal, Lamb, Beef, etc…. If You want to appease them be ready to only eat Salad, wear recycled plastic, and live in a dirt hut…. My opinion is NEVER give them an inch !!

This I agree with. Remember HSUS spent a pile to back the ballot initiative to ban dove hunting in Michigan. The most plentiful game bird in the world.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

@Wishfulthinker580 - Agree there is NO Point trying to appease the “Anti’s” they are against ALL Hunting and protest whatever type of Hunting gains the most attention & publicity, once that type of Hunting is ended they will just move on to the “Next” type of Hunting. Having worked in Companies Protested by PETA - very familiar with their tactics and strategy, their end game is END ALL HUNTING along with All Domestic animals bred for food and All Pet ownership ie: “Pet Slavery” as they refer to it. There are many members of PETA that do LOVE Animals but the leadership in PETA is really more extreme and mostly just Hate-People.

I don’t disagree with any of that. That said, if we can ignore the antis for a moment and pretend like the non-hunting (voting) public do not care one way or another about cbl, I believe it’s still a conversation worth having. If you care about hunting/conservation as a whole you have got to police your own and have these tough conversations.

 

[Doubleplay]

SCI one Worlds leading hunting and conservation organizations condemns it and bans the advertising for it.
I think this tells you a lot.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

Hunting and anti-hunting is not a black and white issue. The majority are fence sitters who are ambivalent ... for now. I see CBL as something that can easily drive them to the wrong side. Bear baiting is not my thing and certainly on the face of it, it appears to be unethical. But we can argue effectively that it's the best way to manage the population of an animal that can be very dangerous if out of control. Of course, the antis won't be convinced but there's some chance the fence sitters will listen. Hunting game behind fences in Africa can be argued as the best use of the land, especially marginal land. I can show the fence sitters images of range land in Montana grazed to dirt and compare it to where I hunt in South Africa. But I simply cannot come up with any defense for CBL that makes sense to me, other than economics. Why not turn the land into golf courses and strip malls instead? That will generate jobs and income. But how will the wildlife benefit?

 

[HankBuck]

SCI one Worlds leading hunting and conservation organizations condemns it and bans the advertising for it.
I think this tells you a lot.

@Doubleplay - it is an interesting stance for SCI and they are very clear on their position against CBL. It seems to contradict their position on other types of put & take and High Fence hunting where they condone it and even give awards, medals, and keep record books for it….calling it “Estate” Hunting vs High Fence hunting…a carefully chosen word that means essentially the same. Boone & Crockett and Pope & Young will Not recognize any animal taken inside a fenced area and have a more strict defination of “Fair Chase”. As others have said it is “Up to the Hunter” to determine their own definition of Ethics.

 

[Philip Glass]

Not true, he only checked in with a thumbs up on some comments but @Philip Glass took a beauty with D&Y a truly wild lion he worked hard for

Correct!

 

[Philip Glass]

No one in this thread has done a wild lion hunt.

It just that captive breading lions to be released hunted within the month is has no conservation value and goes against what we defend.

I can’t support it

I have and I also support those who wish to hunt a CBL.

 

[WyoBull]

I had never heard of Blood Lions until this thread but had definitely heard about Cecil. Up early this morning and started watching it on YT. Pretty shocking to say the least.

 

[HankBuck]

Not nessary on the quail being dead in 24
They do have clean up shooters to come and shoot left over birds

@Flbt - you’re right some quail live for days or weeks depending on weather, predation from hawks & fox — but rain is a killer and especially a cold rain. Also, even a heavy dew will wet their feathers, hunting pen quail in wet grasses usually results in a very poor “flight” and after one flush The birds sometimes can’t get off the ground for a 2nd flush. When training my dog I never use quail because of their poor flying ability and even though they are cheaper and hold well - prefer Chucker for training.

 

[Flbt]

It is a good point, but the answer is not on individuals.

All those must be addressed to international and national hunting organizations of member hunters.
Then they should amend the code of ethics, and make it public, and enforce it.

Things change, our environment changes so the rules of ethics must change as well.

No not at all
I am not a member of any international or national organization.
I will not hunt by what some one else thinks.
In all honesty I might not go by all laws from my country/ state
I dammed sure am not going by a organization.
Made up ethics. There no ethics. They are nothing but your opinion.

 

[Flbt]

@Flbt - you’re right some quail live for days or weeks depending on weather, predation from hawks & fox — but rain is a killer and especially a cold rain. Also, even a heavy dew will wet their feathers, hunting pen quail in wet grasses usually results in a very poor “flight” and after one flush The birds sometimes can’t get off the ground for a 2nd flush. When training my dog I never use quail because of their poor flying ability and even though they are cheaper and hold well - prefer Chucker for training.

My dad usto rase pidgins for a man that used them for his dogs .
Said the same most quail were not strong enough for that.

I don’t know if any one doing it since me Brown died. Mr Brown put his on a high flying pen built on 7 acers if I remember right.
And sold them a little later along
His flew better from what I was told but they were twice as much to the quail hunt places.

 

[Flbt]

No not at all
I am not a member of any international or national organization.
I will not hunt by what some one else thinks.
In all honesty I might not go by all laws from my country/ state
I dammed sure am not going by a organization.
Made up ethics. There no ethics. They are nothing but your opinion.

Now to going by laws.
Depending on when you’re hunting killing a antlerless deer not allowed by law.
One comes out with a arrow sticking out of it and is sick and started to rot.
Law vs personal ethics. I will pay the fine.
You do you. Ethics are personal. Not some standard.

 

[bowjijohn]

I once asked a friend why he was out digging snow holes with his son one winter

I asked, as I knew him to be part of a SF Reg and I was just taking the mick

He said

''If you have to ask then you probably wouldn't understand''

That was my first (emotional) reaction to the OP

I have a huge regard for hunters - as they have an overwhelmingly positive impact on wildlife and conservation in Southern Africa and elsewhere

I'm not so keen on breeding an animal purely for the titillation of shooting it

 

[Flbt]

@Flbt - you’re right some quail live for days or weeks depending on weather, predation from hawks & fox — but rain is a killer and especially a cold rain. Also, even a heavy dew will wet their feathers, hunting pen quail in wet grasses usually results in a very poor “flight” and after one flush The birds sometimes can’t get off the ground for a 2nd flush. When training my dog I never use quail because of their poor flying ability and even though they are cheaper and hold well - prefer Chucker for training.

I am not much of a bird hunter. Dyslexia and left eye domant having to use my right arm after being shot on the left arm. Does not equal being a good wing shot.
But I do pertect the wild coveys that are on the farm the best I can.
Actually got to see one yesterday afternoon when I was planning grass seed.
Little buggers came out to eat my seeds.
38 in that covey

 

[375Fox]

Against my better judgment, I am going to comment.

I don't know of any non-hunter that watched blood lions, I do know that everyone heard of Cecil and I got asked a lot of questions about it. That hunt really got a lot of non-hunters fired up, between the wounding with a bow, baiting and the hunt near a national park, it had a lot of information for the public to pick apart. I think the media publicity really did a lot of damage and was a fundraiser boom. To say Blood Lions caused more damage, I don't think is accurate. MAYBE it fired the anti's up and gave them a target.

I also think there is some conservation value to having genetically different lions available that could be used as an introduction. Even though that might not be necessary now, we don't know what the future holds. I also realize the counter to this argument is lions will still be raised and just killed in a pen for the bone trade so it is not like they will 100% go away.

I will say I have not heard the point that areas with wild lions have enough wild lions and are at or beyond capacity, I know some areas are but didn't think this was large scale.

The good news is this will all go away shortly, and we can argue about other things. We can also be happy that anti hunting is basically a giant grift, and not truly focused on ending hunting or preserving animals. I personally believe this is almost irrelevant now to anti hunting orgs and they have shifted their focus to ballot box biology, wolf introduction and USFW imports.

I did not say Blood Lions caused more damage than Cecil. I said CBL was long ago exposed publicly because of the movie and the damage from CBL has already been done. I then said Cecil wouldn’t be the event it was without the movie Blood Lions adding fuel to the fire. Where do you think the common term canned lions came from? What years did CBL industry attempt to regulate itself with internal standards? They are both concurrent events and one helped propel the other.

 

[375Fox]

@375Fox - I think you know Hunting and logic but you are unfamiliar with “Anti hunting” groups or overly optimistic that they share your logic & ethics. PETA, HSUS, Animal Liberation Front, etc.. only “pretend” to be against certain forms of Hunting and use the emotional word “cruel” to get the ball rolling. They ALWAYS switch targets after they get a “Win”. Maybe right now “canned Lion hunts” are getting the most publicity but next will be Elephants, Rhino dart hunts, Zebra etc.. there will Never be an End - only a New target. Once you give them a Victory (ANY Victory) they use that to brag about their success and solicit more donations for their “Next Crusade” (and there is Always another Crusade planned). Look back and see the success they’ve had with “Fur” - then the progression After that BIG WIN …they went after Leather (and are still going after Leather), they also have tried “Wool” and will keep trying wool — and of course they want to eliminate certain foods: Poultry, Veal, Lamb, Beef, etc…. If You want to appease them be ready to only eat Salad, wear recycled plastic, and live in a dirt hut…. My opinion is NEVER give them an inch !!

Anti-hunters are created. Most are non-hunters are neutral until they aren’t. Participation and support of this activity turns hunters into assets for anti-hunters.