Why all the hate for CBL (Captive-Bred Lion) Hunting?

[375Fox]

Yes your right we don’t know when said animal release.
I have known of quail to be let lose at 7am for a 8am hunt. There been talk of canned hunts in America ever since high fence became a thing
There even rumors of raised turkey being released for turkey hunts in fl because of the fl subspecies.
Are they real I have know idea but how would you ever know. You have to trust your hunter at some time.

You do have to trust your outfitter at some point, but when competition is very high, most are offering a nearly identical shooting event, and hunters are searching out the lowest price it’s a recipe for dishonesty.

 

[375Fox]

How do we Kenya free range hunt
Has not had bait placed where we are to hunt for a month before we show up?

There is no hunting in Kenya. Pre-baiting is permitted in some areas. It will greatly increase your chance of success on a 14 day leopard hunt if pre-baiting is done the week before you arrive but still no guarantee. I don’t hear of it with lion hunting but wild lion hunts are generally 18-21 days with relatively high success in quality areas. Very different than the 99.9% success in 1-3 days on a CBL shooting event on every farm.

 

[Flbt]

@Flbt - well with Quail who cares - release them a day early and they’ll be dead in 24 hours if a heavy rain or snow occurs, or fox strolls by..
For big game hunts the first thing that would raise my suspicion would be a “Fence” because you can’t have a canned hunt without one….maybe not all fenced hunts are “canned” but All canned hunts are “fenced”. The fence is the most important part of the canned hunt and likely the single most expensive part of a canned operation - lots of money for materials and to build and maintain a large high fence.
The better run the operation the more similar the hunting experience is to wild free range —- similar but Not identical.

Not nessary on the quail being dead in 24
They do have clean up shooters to come and shoot left over birds

 

[Flbt]

You do have to trust your outfitter at some point, but when competition is very high, most are offering a nearly identical shooting event, and hunters are searching out the lowest price it’s a recipe for dishonesty.

Any thing that has value is ripe for dishonesty

 

[Flbt]

@Flbt - well with Quail who cares - release them a day early and they’ll be dead in 24 hours if a heavy rain or snow occurs, or fox strolls by..
For big game hunts the first thing that would raise my suspicion would be a “Fence” because you can’t have a canned hunt without one….maybe not all fenced hunts are “canned” but All canned hunts are “fenced”. The fence is the most important part of the canned hunt and likely the single most expensive part of a canned operation - lots of money for materials and to build and maintain a large high fence.
The better run the operation the more similar the hunting experience is to wild free range —- similar but Not identical.

Ok well like me now even if I could afford to go.
I really could not walk enough for a stalk. I would have to sit a blind would that be a true lion hunt?
If the fence lion is as mean as people say
If you and your ph just sat out and let the lion hunt you and you shot to stop it would that make a difference?

 

[Quest#1]

Can a few of you just get together and make a list of exactly the proper and ethical way we all should hunt each country/state/providence and animal? Then we can all be the same and not offend anyone. This everyone has a vote on what others do is ridiculous Wtf do what you want and enjoy it….

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Can a few of you just get together and make a list of exactly the proper and ethical way we all should hunt each country/state/providence and animal? Then we can all be the same and not offend anyone. This everyone has a vote on what others do is ridiculous Wtf do what you want and enjoy it….

Yes!

We have now entered the “everyone is exhausted” phase of the litigation.

Seriously though, that’s essentially what laws and regulations are in a roundabout way. Right now CBL is legal. Hopefully that will end sooner rather than later. Thankfully hunting orgs have denounced it.

 

[Flbt]

@Flbt - well with Quail who cares - release them a day early and they’ll be dead in 24 hours if a heavy rain or snow occurs, or fox strolls by..
For big game hunts the first thing that would raise my suspicion would be a “Fence” because you can’t have a canned hunt without one….maybe not all fenced hunts are “canned” but All canned hunts are “fenced”. The fence is the most important part of the canned hunt and likely the single most expensive part of a canned operation - lots of money for materials and to build and maintain a large high fence.
The better run the operation the more similar the hunting experience is to wild free range —- similar but Not identical.

And with a fence there a difference agreed 100%
I would not hunt a hog in a fenced 20 acres with a rifle and call it a hog hunt
Now if I wanted to eat a hog I would have no problem shooting one and butcher it out. But it to me not hunting.
Now put that same hog in 300 acres change out the rifle for a few dogs and a knife. I would consider it a hunt
Some may not. I dont care

 

[375Fox]

Can a few of you just get together and make a list of exactly the proper and ethical way we all should hunt each country/state/providence and animal? Then we can all be the same and not offend anyone. This everyone has a vote on what others do is ridiculous Wtf do what you want and enjoy it….

If we were I think the absurdity of calling CBL farming hunting would quickly be exposed. The number of hunters who put their blinders on to support this practice really shocks me.

 

[Flbt]

If we were I think the absurdity of calling CBL farming hunting would quickly be exposed. The number of hunters who put their blinders on to support this practice really shocks me.

I would not say that many hunters support it
I think there a lot that supports some ones else ability to do it if the want.
That they understand there ethics don’t over ride what some else wants to

 

[Hunt anything]

Can a few of you just get together and make a list of exactly the proper and ethical way we all should hunt each country/state/providence and animal? Then we can all be the same and not offend anyone. This everyone has a vote on what others do is ridiculous Wtf do what you want and enjoy it….

Ain’t never gonna happen!!!

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Post in thread 'Lion hunting SA'

Dec 30, 2023

There is a book published recently
Released-captive bred to truly wild

This is proof that captive bred lions can be reintroduced into the wild

Im not getting into this mudslinging contest just pointing out an absolute fact that many deny

Book release
https://www.plbforlions.org/pages/press-release

PhD Thesis on the subject
https://scholar.ufs.ac.za/items/197313b3-82f9-4896-a95b-cc3804d5aae2

• BRICKBURN

• 

Remembered the following study from the above thread.

The introduction of captive bred African lions (Panthera leo) to a private wildlife reserve in the Limpopo Province, South Africa

The objective was to utilise an unique opportunity to monitor and explore the social and feeding behaviour, and the reproductive ability of captive bred, and reared African lions (Panthera leo) when reintroduced as a founder population on a large private wildlife reserve (hereafter, the...

scholar.ufs.ac.za

Page 68 of this study states that once released from the boma they stayed within 300 meters of it for the first 30 days…….. Granted they were in that boma for 6 weeks but still…

I don’t know if that’s the rule or the exception but it’s plausible that that’s the case more often than not. In light of that fact, how much of a “hunt” is it really? Outfitters know exactly where they were released…

Also, (this has been mentioned before) how long do you really think these outfitters are going to allow these lions to be free? At the prices these hunts bring a dead kudu or two would wipe out any profit. So does that mean they’re released into enclosures free of any valuable game animals? Does that mean they’re supplemented with goats and donkeys while they’re released?

The study does show they can make it but where do they go? Also previously addressed

 

[375Fox]

Post in thread 'Lion hunting SA'

Dec 30, 2023

There is a book published recently
Released-captive bred to truly wild

This is proof that captive bred lions can be reintroduced into the wild

Im not getting into this mudslinging contest just pointing out an absolute fact that many deny

Book release
https://www.plbforlions.org/pages/press-release

PhD Thesis on the subject
https://scholar.ufs.ac.za/items/197313b3-82f9-4896-a95b-cc3804d5aae2

• BRICKBURN

• 

Remembered the following thread from the above thread.

The introduction of captive bred African lions (Panthera leo) to a private wildlife reserve in the Limpopo Province, South Africa

The objective was to utilise an unique opportunity to monitor and explore the social and feeding behaviour, and the reproductive ability of captive bred, and reared African lions (Panthera leo) when reintroduced as a founder population on a large private wildlife reserve (hereafter, the...

scholar.ufs.ac.za

Page 68 of this study states that once released from the boma they stayed within 300 meters of it for the first 30 days……..

I don’t know if that’s the rule or the exception but it’s plausible that that’s the case more often than not. In light of that fact, how much of a “hunt” is it really? Outfitters know exactly where they were released…

Also, (this has been mentioned before) how long do you really think these outfitters are going to allow these lions to be free? At the prices these hunts bring a dead kudu or two would wipe out any profit. So does that mean they’re released into enclosures free of any valuable game animals? Does that mean they’re supplemented with goats and donkeys while they’re released?

It’s amazing the information out there is someone wants to look into it. The video I posted was originally posted by Tally Ho safaris to support their CBL point, but I think I’m one of few who actually watched it. It supports some CBL points and counters others.

 

[375Fox]

I would not say that many hunters support it
I think there a lot that supports some ones else ability to do it if the want.
That they understand there ethics don’t over ride what some else wants to

This goes beyond individual ethics. No other hunting activity causes reputation damage to hunters the way this practice does. I’m also in shock the amount of liars it creates from hunters and outfitters to justify the practice. I think anti-hunters will be the most disappointed when the practice is finally banned because nothing else does more damage to African hunting.

 

[Sabre]

I would not say that many hunters support it
I think there a lot that supports some ones else ability to do it if the want.
That they understand there ethics don’t over ride what some else wants to

This goes beyond individual ethics. No other hunting activity causes reputation damage to hunters the way this practice does. I’m also in shock the amount of liars it creates from hunters and outfitters to justify the practice. I think anti-hunters will be the most disappointed when the practice is finally banned because nothing else does more damage to African hunting.

I agree that I don't think it's so much that so many people staunchly support it, as that they just aren't as adamant about having it cancelled as @375Fox . I think that many of us aren't as sure what to think about it, or didn't know as many of the facets of it.

I also think that some people just don't see it as the number one existential threat to hunting as you do (@375Fox) . And I'm not saying that in a negative way, quite the opposite, actually. I appreciate that you are a person who seems fairly consistent on your beliefs about all this stuff, even if I don't completely agree with you on every detail of the situation.

One area I do disagree with is that the anti-hunters will be most disappointed when it is banned. They will just switch to one of the other 100 styles of hunting they disagree with, and/or one of the other 100 animals too cute to hunt.

 

[Quest#1]

I think its ppl that carry on and on about a topic

Hunter or anti that does the damage. @375Fox share every detail of every hunt you have done i bet someone can challenge ethics But really I don’t care as long as you enjoyed yourself.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

I think its ppl that carry on and on about a topic

Hunter or anti that does the damage. @375Fox share every detail of every hunt you have done i bet someone can challenge ethics But really I don’t care as long as you enjoyed yourself.

You continue to keep the thread alive too.. Every time you post…

The best thing to do with a tough/bad situation is to ignore it… Right…….

 

[375Fox]

I think its ppl that carry on and on about a topic

Hunter or anti that does the damage. @375Fox share every detail of every hunt you have done i bet someone can challenge ethics But really I don’t care as long as you enjoyed yourself.

I’ll openly admit the hunts I won’t do again. The difference is I’ve learned from my mistakes and try to educate others. However, it seems those with the least experience and those who base their hunting decisions first and foremost on money are unwilling to admit any mistakes or even consider all isn’t what they want to believe it was or will be. When a cheap farming practice in South Africa damages the reputation of hunters elsewhere it goes beyond individual ethics. The movie Blood Lions came out in 2016 to worldwide audiences. The damage has already been done and CBL practices made fully public. You’re welcome to watch it. However, it seems most are unwilling to educate themselves on any aspect of this topic other than what they want to believe. Whether that be the legal regulations. SAPA guidelines, PHASA information, anti-hunting literature, or any other available resource pro or con.

 

[BJH65]

This goes beyond individual ethics. No other hunting activity causes reputation damage to hunters the way this practice does. I’m also in shock the amount of liars it creates from hunters and outfitters to justify the practice. I think anti-hunters will be the most disappointed when the practice is finally banned because nothing else does more damage to African hunting.

There may be some merit to this perhaps why outfitters keep the specifics of CBL hunting somewhat vague due to the controversy. I would however counter that the killing of Cecil a wild lion had far more of a negative impact on lion hunting and trophy hunting in Africa than any other event or events.

 

[375Fox]

There may be some merit to this perhaps why outfitters keep the specifics of CBL hunting somewhat vague due to the controversy. I would however counter that the killing of Cecil a wild lion had far more of a negative impact on lion hunting and trophy hunting in Africa than any other event or events.

Would the killing of Cecil the lion have been the same controversy and had the same negative impact had the movie Blood Lions about CBL came out a year prior? Cecil might have a lasting name now but that movie poured gas on the fire and pushed it to something it likely never would have been. 10 years later it seems most have forgot they were nearly concurrent events.