Why all the hate for CBL (Captive-Bred Lion) Hunting?

[Sideshow]

I know how I feel (not opposed, if my parameters are met).

This is possibly the most worthy topic of the 'eating popcorn' emoji on this site, right after the do-all nature of the .243 Winchester.

Wait STOP! You mean the .243 win can do it all!

God help those with a 6.5 manbun when they find this out

 

[KMG Hunting Safaris]

It’s easy to equate ethics to money, but most people can’t afford $20,000 -$40,000 hunts. So i think that’s an unfair statement. I understand that outfitting is a business and businesses want to make money. I don’t have an issue with that as we all want to improve our financial position and do well. I’m looking to do an elk hunt and recently talked to many outfits at the Harrisburg PA show which I’ve attended for 25+ years and is one of the biggest in the US. These hunts have increased dramatically the past five years. I’ve also talked to AH sponsors and outfitters and quotes from last year to this year have gone up 30% in 1 year to over $13k. Again outfitters can set their price and hunters can choose to pay what they can. I’m a capitalist so no issue. But stop putting the term “ethical” into an outfitter or hunters choice. We all can make this decision.

My statement wasn't only on Lions. I was referring to hunting in general. The reality is that there are people that will happily pay $4000 for an Elk in a 800 acre area, hunt with a guide that has been around for 1 year and be happy that he shot a big bull, when there are $13,000 hunts in big areas where the overall experience is better, passed up 6 bulls to finally find "the one", he got to hunt with experienced guides, got to learn and really be apart of the process.

"Ethics" is up to the hunter.

We all have to draw our own lines now.

To each, his own, as far as I am concerned.

We all make our on "ethics."

This is exactly my point. That line that has been drawn, moves, depending on the price.

 

[mark-hunter]

The reality is that there are people that will happily pay $4000 for an Elk in a 800 acre area, hunt with a guide that has been around for 1 year and be happy that he shot a big bull, when there are $13,000 hunts in big areas where the overall experience is better, passed up 6 bulls to finally find "the one", he got to hunt with experienced guides, got to learn and really be apart of the process.

In my earlier posts I forgot to add one thing, that you reminded of me now.

Important factor is success of the hunt.
I had a friend, and he spent two weeks hunting some hills in USA for mountain goat. Never saw one, not to mention getting one. Full price paid. He is not thrilled too much about that. He also travelled half of the world to get there, planned vacation, saved the money. I dont think he will try again.

So, reality is: high value wilderness hunt, with some realistic chance of success, or realistic chance of not succeeding, will always make significant portion of hunting market turning to fenced hunts, where chances are better.
If I could ever afford exportable wild lion hunt, I could only afford it once. Getting one lion, or not.
Not getting it, would be very very bitter experience.
It is not like I go to wild country, and if I dont get it, I will just keep repeating.

I would love to hunt bongo, mountain nyala, or massai species, but I can not afford it. Far away from wild lion.
Thinking about experience only, since I am not interested in CBL, I would gladly (try to) hunt non exportable wild lion if price is reasonable and offer is available,.... but this type of offers I have never seen on the forum.

 

[Ontario Hunter]

A hundred posts on this thread. Kinda amazing. Seems a no brainer. I could never get any kind of satisfaction looking at a "trophy" harvested in that way. Or anything shot in a trap or over bait or out of a tree over dogs. Just not my thing.

 

[mark-hunter]

A hundred posts on this thread. Kinda amazing. Seems a no brainer. I could never get any kind of satisfaction looking at a "trophy" harvested in that way. Or anything shot in a trap or over bait or out of a tree over dogs. Just not my thing.

Me too.
But I do not condemn this practice. It has its place in the world of hunting.

My last hunt was buffalo in Caprivi. I could get it for 50% of Caprivi price, in South Africa.

 

[Sabre]

@Sabre - my guess is that you already “understand” but your post should get things lively quick

For what it's worth, I legitimately didn't feel like I fully understood their position when I asked the question.

I thought about it a lot to consider what might make them feel so much more strongly about lions than other game animals and did have theories. And, I feel like I have seen most the arguments against it I had thought of myself show up in this thread.

For a person who is just completely against any high fence hunting, or put and take hunting, it of course makes sense, it is just congruent with those feelings they already have. But for people that are okay with high fence but strongly opposed to CBL, I wanted to hear what the reasoning is in their minds.

To me, the least convincing argument ever against CBL is that the lion is somehow too special and majestic to hunt certain ways, and they deserve some higher level than other animals.

That just reminds me of people who are okay with hunting deer and elk, but are suddenly very anti-hunting when it comes to mountain lion, bears, bobcats, wolves, etc. If your morals about who is a "monster" for hunting are based on how cute the animal seems to you, then your morals aren't very reliable in a conversation about true conservation.

I do think the information and sentiment that the CBL are put and take and can't really live on the preserve without destroying too much game for the property owner is interesting.

Even in that regard, I am not sure I would consider myself completely opposed to it being legal, because if we allow it with other animals, then I don't see why we wouldn't allow it for lions, other than a level of sentiment we feel towards lion.

 

[Sabre]

In my earlier posts I forgot to add one thing, that you reminded of me now.

Important factor is success of the hunt.
I had a friend, and he spent two weeks hunting some hills in USA for mountain goat. Never saw one, not to mention getting one. Full price paid. He is not thrilled too much about that. He also travelled half of the world to get there, planned vacation, saved the money. I dont think he will try again.

So, reality is: high value wilderness hunt, with some realistic chance of success, or realistic chance of not succeeding, will always make significant portion of hunting market turning to fenced hunts, where chances are better.
If I could ever afford exportable wild lion hunt, I could only afford it once. Getting one lion, or not.
Not getting it, would be very very bitter experience.
It is not like I go to wild country, and if I dont get it, I will just keep repeating.

I would love to hunt bongo, mountain nyala, or massai species, but I can not afford it. Far away from wild lion.
Thinking about experience only, since I am not interested in CBL, I would gladly (try to) hunt non exportable wild lion if price is reasonable and offer is available,.... but this type of offers I have never seen on the forum.

This is something I see that is an interesting trend in guided hunting in North America, and at this point, I suppose globally. Wild hunts, often with limited chance of success, is becoming so expensive that it is starting to, and for many species, has eclipsed high fence guaranteed success hunt's costs.

It used to be that a person would shoot a high fence whitetail or mule deer or elk and people would mock it and say, "what did that cost ya, 15 grand?" But, now a guided elk hunt in the wilderness can cost $25,000+ and there is a relatively decent chance of going home with nothing.

I know we don't hunt for guaranteed success. And, Of course the sense of accomplishment on a wild hunt is always going to mean more to someone than on a high fence hunt. But the point is that it used to be seen as absurd to pay $15,000 for a deer or elk, not just because it was high fence hunting, but because of the price you were paying.

I don't say that to say that high fence whitetail are equal to wild hunted animals on an accomplishment level. It is just interesting that a CHANCE at a smaller trophy wild animal with a guide has now often surpassed the price of a guaranteed much larger trophy animal of the same species on high fence.

 

[DieJager]

Oh ok
But do the press the charge?
I have no dog in this fight just interested.

What I've seen in multiple videos that depends but the chance seems higher. Also talking to different PHs on this subject. Still the stacks are favored to the one holding the gun.

But if it is danger that you are after I've seen a video on this website of cage diving with sharks where the sharks enter the cage.