Which caliber over .458

[IvW]

IVW
Are you saying that if you exceed 2400fps with a solid bullet the penetration will be less?

Yes. Especially when using meplat solids. Momentum also suffers.

 

[Luvthunt]

Now you have my attention—momentum is cal’c as energy [velocty] x mass [bullet weight] with the same bullet weight increased vel will provide more momentum.

 

[boldo 42]

Is it just because the 500 jeff is moving about 200 or 300 fps faster? Would it be feasible to increase the 500 nitro's velocity by that much or close to it using the right propellants in a suitably strong action?

Kynoch factory with a 570grn doing 2150fps will give you about 5900ftlbs. Last load test with the 500 jeff was a 600grn at 2300 something for about 7200 ish ftlbs , before i pulled up , that was 107grns of adi 2206h. Just remember the 500 nitro has been getting the job done for a long time in it's std form .

 

[IvW]

Now you have my attention—momentum is cal’c as energy [velocty] x mass [bullet weight] with the same bullet weight increased vel will provide more momentum.

That is only a mathematical formula and not a true reflection of actual performance in the field. As soon as what ever you have calculated the momentum for encounters something in it's path the whole formula changes. The heavier projectile will outperform the light one.

AxB=C but this does not kill whatever you are shooting at, shot placement penetration and proper bullet design does.

Certain bullet designs out penetrate others eg. meplat solids (and the new design convex solids) of the same weight @ the same velocity will out penetrate round nosed solids.

The bullet design creates a "cavity" ahead of and around the bullet creating less "skin" drag on the bullets outer surface which in turn makes the bullet penetrate deeper.

If you now however increase the velocity too much you destroy the cavity and the bullet again encounters increased drag from surrounding tissue which decreases its penetration. It is called supercavitation.

The sweet spot is between 2200 and 2400 fps for big bore calibers.

 

[BenKK]

Yes, I hope my post commenting on .500J and .500NE didn’t come across as dismissive of the latter, because it is an incredible cartridge that has kept me safe countless times. It hits hard!

 

[Luvthunt]

The momentum cal’c is pure and as long as the bullet weight remains constant and the velocity remains constant the momentum will remain constant.
As you put, in a different way, the vel will decrease almost immediately at leaving the muzzle. So will the momentum because of lower vel. Should for some reason the bullet sheds weight the same loss shall occur. Now should both occur the loss in momentum will be even more influenced.

However, a higher velocity [over 2400fps[ will increase momentum with same bullet weights.
Not an argument in “best spot” only in physics. Certainly not the only factor in “right spot” but part of the equation in hunting, and as we all know the farther from the muzzle the lower the momentum and the cal.c .

 

[Von S.]

Over the years being a purchaser of what I call DGGs ( dead guy's guns) I have owned probably every caliber ever made or close to it. I do sell these firearms sometimes with a tutelage package that offers a novice the ability to fire many different calibers before they buy anything from anyone that find out that too late just isn't right for them.

Anyway! Though many will either exclude from conversation or throw a steaming bucket of bad mouth on it, the 458 win mag is one of the finest rounds ever thought of that it's only drawback is that ,for me anyway, there doesn't appear to be any wonderful expanding bullets made for it.

At 72 I sometimes pull out the 600's and that T
Rex that I bought from a guy for about 10 cents on the dollar and say out loud, "what the hell was I thinking" and then laugh like hell and for those of you who have has one in your hands you probably evoked the name of some diety, possibly Bazoozoo, along with , " who in their right mind would shoot this damned thing?" , and the answer would be you if you owned it.....at least once anyway.

I wonder if there's anyone out there who doesn't dream of owning a sxs 500 NE? To me that round and rifle screams that YOU are the most dangerous animal in Africa. Ask anything ever shot with one!

Best Wishes

 

[Luvthunt]

Von S,
Interested in what personal experiences you have had with the 458 Win that you can expound such a commitment to the capability of the 458 Win.

 

[Pheroze]

I have developed a real interest in the B&M and MDM cartridges. The 458 version seems to be about a 458 win mag if you use a 18" barrel but gets closer to a lott if you choose the 21" barrel. But, the really neat one, I think, is the 475 B&M or jump up to the 500 MDM.

 

[Von S.]

Certainly Luvthunt,

First off, nice to make your acquaintance and an internet handshake to you.

6 capes, 2 lions, 1 leopard, 3 elephants, about 50 head of plains animals , 4 moose, 10 or 11 bears, many deer, ,100's of pigs, ground hogs, 2 wild dogs, a turkey, a skunk and one giant alligator gar in Port Arkansas Texas.

One of the elephants I shot was a backup kill because my friends 375 wasn't cutting the mustard ant the other two were killed because they ate crops and stepped on a few people.

And for the life of me, why I shot the fish is still a mystery to me,but I am pretty sure that if ABC was there it would have made one hell of a episode of the Wide, Wide World of Sports.

My go to 458 is. An FN with a very thin barrel, a thumbhole plyeood stock with a wellhammer palm swell and a bevertail forend that has been extremely lightened and epoxy and carbon finger vac bagged, qd rings with a low power scope with illumination. Big easy to see sights with a sling mount to the barrel where it belongs.

.........and bullets of my own design and making that actually work .

 

[Papabear55]

Over the years being a purchaser of what I call DGGs ( dead guy's guns) I have owned probably every caliber ever made or close to it. I do sell these firearms sometimes with a tutelage package that offers a novice the ability to fire many different calibers before they buy anything from anyone that find out that too late just isn't right for them.

Anyway! Though many will either exclude from conversation or throw a steaming bucket of bad mouth on it, the 458 win mag is one of the finest rounds ever thought of that it's only drawback is that ,for me anyway, there doesn't appear to be any wonderful expanding bullets made for it.

At 72 I sometimes pull out the 600's and that T
Rex that I bought from a guy for about 10 cents on the dollar and say out loud, "what the hell was I thinking" and then laugh like hell and for those of you who have has one in your hands you probably evoked the name of some diety, possibly Bazoozoo, along with , " who in their right mind would shoot this damned thing?" , and the answer would be you if you owned it.....at least once anyway.

I wonder if there's anyone out there who doesn't dream of owning a sxs 500 NE? To me that round and rifle screams that YOU are the most dangerous animal in Africa. Ask anything ever shot with one!

Best Wishes

I had a nice super grade mod70 in 458 win. Traded it for the no1 in 458 lott. I do miss it though. Id love to get a 500 nitro, double or single. Anything bigger would be a blessing but unfortunately my pockets arent deep enough for the conversion on my no1 right now. And a double is way out of my pay grade lol

 

[Von S.]

Hi Pappa,

Hi five! Nice bear.

Its rare that great deals fall in your lap, but they are out there.

I have a few #1's, but Pappa, i just don't have the toodlie Bob's to square off against dg without a bunch of bullets in a magazine....or at least one other.

 

[Papabear55]

Hi Pappa,

Hi five! Nice bear.

Its rare that great deals fall in your lap, but they are out there.

I have a few #1's, but Pappa, i just don't have the toodlie Bob's to square off against dg without a bunch of bullets in a magazine....or at least one other.

Thanks von, she wasnt very big but it was my last chance for probably a long time unless i get one during my last moose season in alaska. Took her at 20 yards and was the most exciting hunt ive ever been a part of

 

[HWL]

I had a nice super grade mod70 in 458 win. Traded it for the no1 in 458 lott. I do miss it though. Id love to get a 500 nitro, double or single. Anything bigger would be a blessing but unfortunately my pockets arent deep enough for the conversion on my no1 right now. And a double is way out of my pay grade lol

You simply have to cut a .450 Nitro Express chamber into your ruger...

HWL

 

[Von S.]

I just gotta like that Pappabear,

He's just a younger, better looking and lighter version of myself !

Maybe Pappabear you could just have your barrel removed, re-bored, re rifled and made into something really twisted? And then go up in Kamchatka and just knock the hell out of Brownies.

You'll probably only see 15 each day!

 

[Von S.]

Luvthunt,

If one wished to determine what round would drive a bullet deeper that's pretty easy to determine.

First, the bullets would have to be the same in all respects and should it be a solid that can not be deformed by either as it strikes the test medium. In a situation like that the higher velocity will penatrate deeper.

But let's say that one cartridge has a velocity of 2100 fps and the other is at 2600 ft per second and we are using a bullet that deforms at 2200 fps in our test media ,even though one is is moving significantly faster the deformation can and will cause yawl and becoming greater in diameter adds drag which will slow that bullet down as it imparts it's energy into the test medium .

If one were to use an animal as the test media results would be impossible to track as there is no provable and verifiable constant.

There are many different schools of thought about bullets and their lethality when it comes to the real world capabilities of putting game down and keeping them there.

One school says that a bullet should enter, expend all of it's energy inside the animal and not exit.

Another says that it should expand and have enough energy to fall out the other side of the animal.

And still another says it should enter, disrupt and exit the other side of the animal with great velocity as to expel pieces of the animal and create a permenant wound channel so blood will easily flow and facilitate easy tracking if necessary.

Right now there are many bullets to choose from , but there is no such thing as a "one size fits all" unless you are strictly looking for a solid to punch a hole with that is machines from solid stock.

The easiest case in point would be if a fellow uses a 45 caliber designed to expand on a cape will it also expand on a 125 pound Leopard?

Probably not and wouldn't make much sense as would hitting a cape with a 300 grain thin jacket that would be ideal for something that is light skinned, small boned and as narrow as the cat.

 

[Head Trauma]

500 MDM

 

[John J]

Yes sir, 500 MDM and 308 for comparison

 

[Head Trauma]

Inf link for the 500 MDM

https://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/500-MDM.html

Read what Paul Truccolo of Southern Safaris has to say about the 500 MDM in the above link

It is a hammer

 

[Bruce]

500 Jeffery, the best and most devastatingly effective stopping rifle I have ever used.

Built on a Brno ZKK 602 action.

Agree with IvW here...years ago my PH in Tanzania used a 500 Jeffries... absolutely amazing rifle.
I personally use a 458 Win Mag, BUT imI not a PH...YET!!!