Which BIG bore?

[spike.t]

matt i think with you that is taken for granted

 

[colorado]

I've reached my recoil limit, but have only admiration for you guys. In fact, I plan to cut my loads for the 570g A-Frame down to 2150 fps (500 NE levels). Seems like it should be enough

 

[petrusg]

[I got this off another website and thought you would like to see some recoil stats.... enjoy

Herewith, a rogue’s list of shoulder shredders, clavicle crunchers, retina wrenchers, and subdural hematoma hasteners that you don’t want to shoot. To give things a little perspective, a .30/06 in an 8-pound rifle produces 21 foot-pounds of recoil; a .375 H&H, which maxes out most shooters, comes in at 40.

.700 H&H:

The .700 Nitro Express or H&H Magnum.

This is the cartridge for those who think the .600 Nitro Express is kind of...wussy. It sends a 1,000-grain bullet at 2,000 feet per second, with 8,900 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. In a 19-pound Holland & Holland double rifle, it produces 109 foot-pounds of recoil. A friend of mine who has shot one assures me that it’s unmanageable. Pull the trigger and the muzzle points at the sky while the butt ends down at your belt. Also, the rifle costs over $200,000.

.600 Nitro Express:

A .600 Nitro Express cartridge.

This sends 900-grain bullet at 1,950 fps with 7,600 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. In a 16-pound double rifle, it produces 99 foot-pounds of recoil. For 90 years, until it was surpassed by the .700, the .600 was numero uno in sheer brute power. Very few .600s have been built, to the sorrow of orthopedic surgeons everywhere.

.475 A&M Magnum:

A .475 A&M Magnum cartridge.

Shooting this is no worse than being in a plane crash. Its 600-grain bullet leaves the rifle at 2,500 fps, with 8,340 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. In a 12-pound bolt-action rifle, it produces 97 foot-pounds of recoil. This obscure but very sincere wildcat was developed by the Prescott, Arizona gunsmithing firm of Atkinson & Marquardt in 1959. It’s a .378 Weatherby case necked up to .47. I’ve only seen one gun chambered for it; the first time its owner pulled the trigger, the stock split as if struck with an axe.

.577 Tyrannosaur:

Two .577 Tyrannosaur cartridges flanking a .308 Winchester round.

T-Rex himself would hesitate before pulling the trigger on one of these, which sends a 750-grain bullet at 2,460 fps with 10,000 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. In a 12-pound bolt-action rifle, that equates to 172 foot-pounds of recoil. The cartridge and rifle are made only by A-Square, which claims that it is a popular load. I would rather get a horn through the liver.

.460 Weatherby:

The .460 Weatherby.

Practically a maiden’s kiss compared to the preceding, but a monster in its own right. The 500-grain bullet exits the rifle at 2,600 fps, with 7,500 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. In an 11-pound bolt-action rifle, you’ll get 93 foot-pounds of recoil. The original version of this cartridge, which appeared in 1958, was loaded a little bit hotter. Even so, shooting a .460 Weatherby is still an unforgettable experience.

 

[Jimbob]

...it sounds like you need to quit waffling and just get a 4 bore. it sounds like if you get any thing smaller you will just end up wanting something bigger. the 4 bore is the ceiling when it comes to large bore hunting rifles... there is nothing bigger. (there are bigger cartridges out there but they arent hunting cartridges)

Sadly i feel you are right. I had hoped that people on here would convince me that the 600 (or 577) would be all i could ever want but, despite good and reasoned arguments, that's not the case.

Hey ho, i'm sure a 2000gr 1" diameter bullet will work on plains game just fine if only i wasn't away at the moment, i could get after this a little faster. Never mind, not bad in the great scheme of what will be a pretty long build.

 

[CTDolan]

[I got this off another website and thought you would like to see some recoil stats.... enjoy

Herewith, a rogue’s list of shoulder shredders, clavicle crunchers, retina wrenchers, and subdural hematoma hasteners that you don’t want to shoot. To give things a little perspective, a .30/06 in an 8-pound rifle produces 21 foot-pounds of recoil; a .375 H&H, which maxes out most shooters, comes in at 40.

.700 H&H:

The .700 Nitro Express or H&H Magnum.

This is the cartridge for those who think the .600 Nitro Express is kind of...wussy. It sends a 1,000-grain bullet at 2,000 feet per second, with 8,900 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. In a 19-pound Holland & Holland double rifle, it produces 109 foot-pounds of recoil. A friend of mine who has shot one assures me that it’s unmanageable. Pull the trigger and the muzzle points at the sky while the butt ends down at your belt. Also, the rifle costs over $200,000.

.600 Nitro Express:

A .600 Nitro Express cartridge.

This sends 900-grain bullet at 1,950 fps with 7,600 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. In a 16-pound double rifle, it produces 99 foot-pounds of recoil. For 90 years, until it was surpassed by the .700, the .600 was numero uno in sheer brute power. Very few .600s have been built, to the sorrow of orthopedic surgeons everywhere.

.475 A&M Magnum:

A .475 A&M Magnum cartridge.

Shooting this is no worse than being in a plane crash. Its 600-grain bullet leaves the rifle at 2,500 fps, with 8,340 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. In a 12-pound bolt-action rifle, it produces 97 foot-pounds of recoil. This obscure but very sincere wildcat was developed by the Prescott, Arizona gunsmithing firm of Atkinson & Marquardt in 1959. It’s a .378 Weatherby case necked up to .47. I’ve only seen one gun chambered for it; the first time its owner pulled the trigger, the stock split as if struck with an axe.

.577 Tyrannosaur:

Two .577 Tyrannosaur cartridges flanking a .308 Winchester round.

T-Rex himself would hesitate before pulling the trigger on one of these, which sends a 750-grain bullet at 2,460 fps with 10,000 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. In a 12-pound bolt-action rifle, that equates to 172 foot-pounds of recoil. The cartridge and rifle are made only by A-Square, which claims that it is a popular load. I would rather get a horn through the liver.

.460 Weatherby:

The .460 Weatherby.

Practically a maiden’s kiss compared to the preceding, but a monster in its own right. The 500-grain bullet exits the rifle at 2,600 fps, with 7,500 foot-pounds of muzzle energy. In an 11-pound bolt-action rifle, you’ll get 93 foot-pounds of recoil. The original version of this cartridge, which appeared in 1958, was loaded a little bit hotter. Even so, shooting a .460 Weatherby is still an unforgettable experience.

Wonderful post!

When I was younger I had a 460 Weatherby sporting a nice set of express sights. The rifle came in at just under 11 pounds and I didn't consider the recoil objectionable in the least. However, I also had a 378 Weatherby with a Leupold scope (9.5 lbs). That one was a flinch-inducing monster. Five rounds was enough to produce a headache and a purple shoulder. I suppose it didn't help that I always shot the rifle from a bench (it had serious reach), but it was a vicious tool all the same.

 

[colorado]

The recoil calcualtor I use calculates my 11.25 lb 500 Jeffery shooting a 570g bullet (103g H4895) at 2300 fps to be a manageable 83.62 ft/lbs with a recoil velocity (this is the one that gets you with the 378 Weatherby) of 21.88 fps. I'm loading up some cartridges with 570g A-Frames at 2150 fps this weekend. I hope they shoot well. The calculator puts that load at around 75 ft/lbs barely a maiden's kiss

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

 

[matt85]

The recoil calcualtor I use calculates my 11.25 lb 500 Jeffery shooting a 570g bullet (103g H4895) at 2300 fps to be a manageable 83.62 ft/lbs with a recoil velocity (this is the one that gets you with the 378 Weatherby) of 21.88 fps. I'm loading up some cartridges with 570g A-Frames at 2150 fps this weekend. I hope they shoot well. The calculator puts that load at around 75 ft/lbs barely a maiden's kiss

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

im also looking to slow my gibbs loads down but probably for different reasons. I was running a 570gr A-frame at 2300fps and a 600gr Peregrine at 2250fps but the problem I ran into was I couldn't get either load to match my iron sights regardless of what front sight I used (hits were too low). Ive managed to get the 600gr Peregrine to match the sights now but I fear the velocity might be too slow, haven't had a chance to chronograph the load yet.

shot my cape buffalo with a 570gr .505" A-frame at 2300fps and it did a fine job of punching the lungs... after going threw a tree... then going threw the shoulder. bullet weight retention was over 90%, gotta love those Swift A-frames!

tree:


buffalo:


bullets:


-matt

 

[CTDolan]

Matt, have you ever thought about a 577 Nitro Express? It seems as though it'd be ideal (and quite up your alley).

 

[Pondoro]

I would have taken a .600...like you CTDolan I have wanted one...since I read a great article about the .577 and .600 in the Guns&Ammo 1984 annual (by Jack Lott).

I shot a .600 DR that weighed in at 13,2 lbs (6kg). It is a bit light for calibre but definetly shootable....

My point is that a 13,2 lbs rifle is tolerable in both recoil and weight....a 16 lbs rifle is hopelessly heavy to drag around in the heat in Africa..

I think the .600 is the ultimate stopper on elephant with modern bullets....for brain shots and heart/lung shots alike..

 

[Jimbob]

That's the thing with recoil, i think its very much overrated. Don't get me wrong, learn incorrectly and you'll get one hell of a flinch but done right it just lengthens the learning curve.

My point being that many people say the 577 Nitro is bordering on the limit of tolerable recoil (they obviously forget the 600 and 700) but more can obviously be lived with, given correct practice and experience, otherwise we wouldn't have the 585 Nyati or, @matt85 's next toy, the 585 Hubel Express.

So although recoil figures are fun to look at i think that 'felt' recoil can be acclimatized to given time. A well fitting stock and decent recoil pad helps nicely aswell

 

[matt85]

ive never a fired a 13.2 pound 600 and i doubt i would if given the chance. i like big guns but i dont like them enough to hurt myself at the range. i have fired @cal pappas's 600 NE and while im not sure exactly what it weighed im positive it was HEAVY (16+ pounds). my minimum would probably be 14.5-15 pounds with this cartridge.

for playing around at the range i found cal's 4 bore more comfortable to shoot then his 600 NE though. the incredibly low velocity especially with lighter target loads made for great fun.

-matt

 

[fsrmg1]

Why not create your own and top the .700 NE by going to a nitro express version of the 10 bore. You could call it the .770 Nitro Express.

 

[Bert the Turtle]

My vote is for the 4 bore. With modern bullets, something in the neighborhood of a 458 Lott is sincerely all the gun anyone needs; a 470 if you want rimmed. Some may argue for a little less, some for a little more, but once you get to a 600, you are clearly in it for the fun of having a bigger hammer. So I say go for it.

I'm thinking with a 3D printer you could even make up some sabots and put some relatively (relative to 4 ounces!) lightweight bullet in, load up with some Trail Boss, and have something that really isn't too bad.

 

[Jimbob]

My vote is for the 4 bore. With modern bullets, something in the neighborhood of a 458 Lott is sincerely all the gun anyone needs; a 470 if you want rimmed. Some may argue for a little less, some for a little more, but once you get to a 600, you are clearly in it for the fun of having a bigger hammer. So I say go for it.

I'm thinking with a 3D printer you could even make up some sabots and put some relatively (relative to 4 ounces!) lightweight bullet in, load up with some Trail Boss, and have something that really isn't too bad.

Funny you should say that, my thinking was a paper patched steel bullet but with a full charge. Should have plenty of penetration on anything i'd ever need to stop and, done right, would be kind to the bore.

 

[CTDolan]

Funny you should say that, my thinking was a paper patched steel bullet but with a full charge. Should have plenty of penetration on anything i'd ever need to stop and, done right, would be kind to the bore.

Paper patched bullets are a wonderful thing. It's a dated concept, obviously, but still wonderful. The thing about the paper patch, though, is that it is not designed to function as a sabot (in that its intent is not to allow one to shoot sub-caliber bullets). It's intent is to function as a jacket only (to guard the bore from lead, the paper jacket separating upon leaving the barrel due to it having been twisted onto the bullet in an opposite manner, with regard to the rifling, and it having been cut nearly all the way through while traversing the bore, by the rifling).

 

[CTDolan]

Why not create your own and top the .700 NE by going to a nitro express version of the 10 bore. You could call it the .770 Nitro Express.

It's already been done.

 

[matt85]

Funny you should say that, my thinking was a paper patched steel bullet but with a full charge. Should have plenty of penetration on anything i'd ever need to stop and, done right, would be kind to the bore.

that wont work, you would need some kind of sabot.

if your going to use a 4 bore then its best to use it with a cast bullet over black powder. i know Cal uses some smokeless loads but from my understanding the best performance is with black powder. if you really want to spend some money then you could try custom brass bullets or custom jacketed bullets. i know a few companies that would likely be willing to make them for you but the price would be high.

-matt

 

[zephyr]

Matt in a earlier post you mentioned the 450NE pushes a 480gr bullet at 2050fps, 2150fps is the magic number that regulates most of the older rifles.

 

[8x68]

To hunt with a classic I would go with the 600NE. For practicality's sake you can get the same performance from lets say 450 Rigby up to the 577 Tyrannosaur. I was toying with the idea of turning my BRNO 602 458 Lott into either a 550 Magnum of 475A&M.

 

[8x68]

Hey Matt85 given any thoughts to a shoulder fired 20mm Gatling Gun? Should be legal for Africa as it's a hand crank not semi auto....