When stepping up from a .416, which direction to go?

[Northern Shooter]

Interesting...

Noted you do not have your 416 yet, yet you are planning the next rifle....This tells me me you love firearms and let's be honest, if the 416 is not the last, neither will the next rifle thereafter be the last as well...

My suggestion would be a double in 470NE or 500NE, with the latter my preference. Thereafter I would do a 458 and then the next double and so on.

Why? You already have 2 calibers that can shoot everything on earth in a bolt gun. Why have 3 (well you should have more) but maybe first get the double and then the next bolt. If you go 458 Lott/Rigby next, your next purchase would be a double. Then if you want a double in a caliber class not covered by your other's it would be 500NE.

Also to consider, if you choose a 458 caliber, then apart from being a double and the nostalgic reasons, a 470NE for me is just to close to a 458, caliber wise, and may I venture and put my neck out maybe a bit less "powerful". A standard 458 Lott / Rigby with a 500 gr bullet at say 2300 ft/s will give you approximately 5800 ft lbf/7000J, where a 470 NE also shooting a 500gr at 2150 fps will give you roughly 5100 ft lbf. That is why I would rather go the 500NE (which to be fare now in hindsight shoots a 570gr @2150ft/s to give you roughly same energy as the 458... Yeah I am not considering the SD...

For me actually the only reason against a 470NE is it just feels to close to a 458 caliber, but that would not stop me from getting one someday, it would just be my last one, and to be honest probably the most fun and versatile one.... What an excellent example of an oxymoron

So, if you are considering spacing your rifle in "caliber", go for a 500 NE double and then the 458. You can also do the double in say a 450NE/470NE and the 500Jeff/505Gibs and the 450/400.

In the end, you will wonder whether your arsenal should not be:
416 R bolt & 450/400NE double
458 Lott or Rigby bolt & 470 NE double
500 Jeff/505 bolt & 500 NE double

Thanks for your insight, I may need to reconsider my planned caliber spread.

I was always under the impression that the big Nitro Express cartridges were a step above the .458s when it comes to energy.

Now that Im looking further into this, some of these come as a quite the surprise. There is quite a bit of overlap between many of these cartridges.

As a reference:
375H&H - 4,100-4,300 ft-lb
.416 Rigby -4,700-5,100 ft-lb

450/400 NE - 4,100 ft-lb (comparable to 375H&H)
450 NE - 4,700-5,100 ft-lb (comparable to .416)
500/450 NE - 5,050 ft-ft-lb (comparable to .416)
500/465 NE - 4,900 ft-lb (comparable to .416)
470 NE - 5,100 ft-lb (comparable to .416)
.458 WM - 4,500-5,300 ft-lb (slight increase over .416)
.458 Lott - 4,800-6,000 ft-lb (noticeable increase over .416)
450 Rigby -5,400-6,900 ft-lb (noticeable increase over .416)
500 NE -5,850 ft-lb (notable increase over .458's)
.505 Gibbs - 5,850-6,300 ft-lb (notable increase over .458's)
500 Jeff - 6,100-8,100 ft-lb (notable increase over .458's)
577 NE - 7,000 ft-lb (this is about as big as you can get in Canada as it comes in just under our 10,000J limit).

 

[fourfive8]

Also, recoil is worthy of serious consideration. The recoil will be closely related to the muzzle energy numbers. Other things equal, mass of rifle is primary means of mitigation of recoil without gadgetry like internal inertial dampeners or muzzle brakes.

 

[WAB]

Thanks for your insight, I may need to reconsider my planned caliber spread.

I was always under the impression that the big Nitro Express cartridges were a step above the .458s when it comes to energy.

Now that Im looking further into this, some of these come as a quite the surprise. There is quite a bit of overlap between many of these cartridges.

As a reference:
375H&H - 4,100-4,300 ft-lb
.416 Rigby -4,700-5,100 ft-lb

450/400 NE - 4,100 ft-lb (comparable to 375H&H)
450 NE - 4,700-5,100 ft-lb (comparable to .416)
500/450 NE - 5,050 ft-ft-lb (comparable to .416)
500/465 NE - 4,900 ft-lb (comparable to .416)
470 NE - 5,100 ft-lb (comparable to .416)
.458 WM - 4,500-5,300 ft-lb (slight increase over .416)
.458 Lott - 4,800-6,000 ft-lb (noticeable increase over .416)
450 Rigby -5,400-6,900 ft-lb (noticeable increase over .416)
500 NE -5,850 ft-lb (notable increase over .458's)
.505 Gibbs - 5,850-6,300 ft-lb (notable increase over .458's)
500 Jeff - 6,100-8,100 ft-lb (notable increase over .458's)
577 NE - 7,000 ft-lb (this is about as big as you can get in Canada as it comes in just under our 10,000J limit).

My .458 Lott is pushing a 500 gr bullet at 2,300 fps for 5,873 ft-lbs of energy. I don’t think that the 500 NE and .505 Gibbs qualify as a ‘notable increase’ over that.

 

[Wishfulthinker580]

Thanks for your insight, I may need to reconsider my planned caliber spread.

I was always under the impression that the big Nitro Express cartridges were a step above the .458s when it comes to energy.

Now that Im looking further into this, some of these come as a quite the surprise. There is quite a bit of overlap between many of these cartridges.

As a reference:
375H&H - 4,100-4,300 ft-lb
.416 Rigby -4,700-5,100 ft-lb

450/400 NE - 4,100 ft-lb (comparable to 375H&H)
450 NE - 4,700-5,100 ft-lb (comparable to .416)
500/450 NE - 5,050 ft-ft-lb (comparable to .416)
500/465 NE - 4,900 ft-lb (comparable to .416)
470 NE - 5,100 ft-lb (comparable to .416)
.458 WM - 4,500-5,300 ft-lb (slight increase over .416)
.458 Lott - 4,800-6,000 ft-lb (noticeable increase over .416)
450 Rigby -5,400-6,900 ft-lb (noticeable increase over .416)
500 NE -5,850 ft-lb (notable increase over .458's)
.505 Gibbs - 5,850-6,300 ft-lb (notable increase over .458's)
500 Jeff - 6,100-8,100 ft-lb (notable increase over .458's)
577 NE - 7,000 ft-lb (this is about as big as you can get in Canada as it comes in just under our 10,000J limit).

The 416 vs 458+ cartridges (or any caliber for that matter) comparison is a little misleading if you just go by energy alone. Frontal area/diameter matters. Maybe the phrase “there is no replacement for displacement” applies to ballistics as well?

 

[Rare Breed]

For those of you that own 375s and 416s, which direction did you go when you stepped up from there? I don't even own my .416 yet but I'm planning 2 steps ahead and starting to consider one of the larger big bores.

Option 1: 458's, WinMag and Lott
Option 2: 450/400 NE, 450 NE etc.
Option 3: 470NE
Option 4: something truly large in the >0.500 realm.

I'm currently leaning towards a 470NE as I'd like to buy a double and ammo availability for the 470 seems to be greater than some of the others.

Curious to hear your thoughts.

I have a 375 H&H and a 500 NE 3 inch DR

 

[Frederik]

I won a set of 500NE 3" RCBS dies with Rollcrimp on a lucky draw at the shoot this Saturday and I'm selling it.

Two reasons Double is just way out of my budget will rather spend the money on hunting.
I just love bolt actions I don't mind doubles and they are sexy but its not for me.

5 in the mag with my CZ550 in 458 Lott with 500gr bullets at 2270fps and its working great.
Buffalo, lion, nyala, red hartebeest, blue wildebeest and zebra have all felt the power.

450 Rigby one less in the mag with a tad more power I doubt the animals feel the difference.

The bigger boys have less in the mag only 3 so practically the 458 lott/Express just made sense for me before I upgraded from my 375 H&H.

Handles well fist me and shoots where I aim most of the time.

 

[Rare Breed]

That's what I'm thinking, 470NE seems to strike the perfect balance between stopping power, cost and recoil and seems like the quintessential double rifle cartridge without stepping up too crazy into the 0.500s.

Not much difference in felt recoil between 470 to 500 in DR…I’ve owned both and that is my personal finding

 

[Northern Shooter]

Not much difference in felt recoil between 470 to 500 in DR…I’ve owned both and that is my personal finding

I've been reading through http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

It looks like 470NE has 69.3 LB-F Vs 500NE at 74.5 Lb-f, which your right is close.

Some other interesting comparisons Im seeing there is that 470NE is producing almost 12lb-f more felt recoil vs a .416 Ribgy despite them producing very similar energy levels. The weight of the rifle must be the deciding factor here.

.470NE and .458 lott are on par. There is a significant jump up in felt recoil when you go from .500 NE to 577NE and 600NE (up to 100% more with the 600).

 

[BourbonTrail]

I've been reading through http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

It looks like 470NE has 69.3 LB-F Vs 500NE at 74.5 Lb-f, which your right is close.

Some other interesting comparisons Im seeing there is that 470NE is producing almost 12lb-f more felt recoil vs a .416 Ribgy despite them producing very similar energy levels. The weight of the rifle must be the deciding factor here.

.470NE and .458 lott are on par. There is a significant jump up in felt recoil when you go from .500 NE to 577NE and 600NE (up to 100% more with the 600).

An aside: Above 500 your penetration starts to decrease because velocities on the 577-600 NE don’t overcome the large frontal areas.

 

[krish]

The 416 vs 458+ cartridges (or any caliber for that matter) comparison is a little misleading if you just go by energy alone. Frontal area/diameter matters. Maybe the phrase “there is no replacement for displacement” applies to ballistics as well?
View attachment 524952
View attachment 524953

That is what I would say. Frontal area Counts.
Krish

 

[Frederik]

That is what I would say. Frontal area Counts.
Krish

.45 Soft expanding to 1" makes good damage.
On our recent Crochunt the bait impala was shot with .30 cal 168gr TSX it expanded perfectly shot was frontal but even expanding text book perfect the expandend area was a tad bigger than .45 caliber.

 

[cajunchefray]

I've been reading through http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

It looks like 470NE has 69.3 LB-F Vs 500NE at 74.5 Lb-f, which your right is close.

Some other interesting comparisons Im seeing there is that 470NE is producing almost 12lb-f more felt recoil vs a .416 Ribgy despite them producing very similar energy levels. The weight of the rifle must be the deciding factor here.

.470NE and .458 lott are on par. There is a significant jump up in felt recoil when you go from .500 NE to 577NE and 600NE (up to 100% more with the 600).

Welcome to the Big Bore Addiction Journey!


Many folks have offered some very sound advice.

My experiences are based only on shooting the range of big bore, I have NO African hunting experience, yet, so take what I say as just academic.
I've gone from .375, .416 Rigby, Taylor, and Remington, ,458 Win Mag and .500 Jeffery.

Points to consider:
>Rifle fit is important, and the bigger the cartridge, more so.
> Everyone has a recoil limit, find that and become effective with what you can handle (for me, it is 60 ft lbs, or a 500 grain bullet at 2150 fps, a max powder charge of 75 gr)
> While foot pounds of recoil is important, the Recoil Impulse from the recoil calculators state the Recoil Velocity Lb foot seconds. This is the acceleration/ speed of recoil. My limit is 17 or so. I read in an older book that a British officer and hunter (can't remember his name) stated that most men could take up to 17 lb ft sec.
> try to shoot something in the .458 range, then .500 before you buy. This will save you a lot of headaches.

When I got my first .375 H&H, (Whitworth M98) I proceeded slowly in learning to shoot and handle the recoil.

Stepped up to a 416 Rigby (CZ 550) and, for me at least, was a step up in recoil, but I could handle it if the powder charge was 95 grains or less. The big loads of 105 grains slow burning powder was a little too much.
Then the Ruger 77 RSM in 416 Rigby would knock the snot out of me. I was not accurate with it, sold it. Gun fit lesson for me.

Next up was a .458 Winchester Model 70 Super Express. Stock fit was very good for me.
Then another Whitworth, now in .458 Win Mag. (Whitworth stocks fit me like a glove.)
I still have this rifle and shoot full power loads, no more than 10-12 per session.

Then i bought a 450/400 NE Double, fits okay, I will get some stock work done for the perfect fit, but I can shoot it. The Ruger Number 1 in the same caliber, weighing just a few ounces less with a scope, just beats me up, and will be going down the road shortly. Again, gun fit.

Then over the limit: .500 Jeffery on a CZ 550. I fired exactly 2 shots with factory Kynoch ammo (535 gr bullet at 2400 fps). Just as another poster said, the new owner got the rest of the box of factory loads. I even downloaded it to .500 NE ballistics. After 3 or 4 shoots, my accuracy went downhill. Sold it to a member here , who could handle it, and killed a buff, just a few yards off the muzzle.

The moral of these stories are: Try before you buy. The fit and handling of the rifle is extremely important. Find your recoil limit and stay there, just spend more time and effort practicing. Read everything you can and practice recoil mitigation techniques.

All this said, I still want a .500 NE Double, made to fit me.

 

[Inline6]

My .458 Lott is pushing a 500 gr bullet at 2,300 fps for 5,873 ft-lbs of energy. I don’t think that the 500 NE and .505 Gibbs qualify as a ‘notable increase’ over that.

I was thinking the 500Jeff is where the notable increase starts to come into play. Reason being the SD of the 458 will makeup some of the difference in the few hundred # of energy. All things being equal penetration will probably favor the 458 over the 505.

Really we are splitting frog hairs, name the animal and it has been killed with a 375h&h. Above that we are starting to figure out what is the best stopping cartridge. From 5k mark up, is essentially stopping power.

We all like to name our favorite and we have our reasons. Truthful name the cartridge and someone will have a story how it dropped said animal in it's tracks, someone else will have a counter story how X animal soaked up the bullet impacts from the same cartridge. If we could ever gauge the will of an animal to live, our trophy preferences would be swayed (atleast mine would).

 

[krish]

I was thinking the 500Jeff is where the notable increase starts to come into play. Reason being the SD of the 458 will makeup some of the difference in the few hundred # of energy. All things being equal penetration will probably favor the 458 over the 505.

Really we are splitting frog hairs, name the animal and it has been killed with a 375h&h. Above that we are starting to figure out what is the best stopping cartridge. From 5k mark up, is essentially stopping power.

We all like to name our favorite and we have our reasons. Truthful name the cartridge and someone will have a story how it dropped said animal in it's tracks, someone else will have a counter story how X animal soaked up the bullet impacts from the same cartridge. If we could ever gauge the will of an animal to live, our trophy preferences would be swayed (atleast mine would).

Well said.
Krish

 

[krish]

Welcome to the Big Bore Addiction Journey!


Many folks have offered some very sound advice.

My experiences are based only on shooting the range of big bore, I have NO African hunting experience, yet, so take what I say as just academic.
I've gone from .375, .416 Rigby, Taylor, and Remington, ,458 Win Mag and .500 Jeffery.

Points to consider:
>Rifle fit is important, and the bigger the cartridge, more so.
> Everyone has a recoil limit, find that and become effective with what you can handle (for me, it is 60 ft lbs, or a 500 grain bullet at 2150 fps, a max powder charge of 75 gr)
> While foot pounds of recoil is important, the Recoil Impulse from the recoil calculators state the Recoil Velocity Lb foot seconds. This is the acceleration/ speed of recoil. My limit is 17 or so. I read in an older book that a British officer and hunter (can't remember his name) stated that most men could take up to 17 lb ft sec.
> try to shoot something in the .458 range, then .500 before you buy. This will save you a lot of headaches.

When I got my first .375 H&H, (Whitworth M98) I proceeded slowly in learning to shoot and handle the recoil.

Stepped up to a 416 Rigby (CZ 550) and, for me at least, was a step up in recoil, but I could handle it if the powder charge was 95 grains or less. The big loads of 105 grains slow burning powder was a little too much.
Then the Ruger 77 RSM in 416 Rigby would knock the snot out of me. I was not accurate with it, sold it. Gun fit lesson for me.

Next up was a .458 Winchester Model 70 Super Express. Stock fit was very good for me.
Then another Whitworth, now in .458 Win Mag. (Whitworth stocks fit me like a glove.)
I still have this rifle and shoot full power loads, no more than 10-12 per session.

Then i bought a 450/400 NE Double, fits okay, I will get some stock work done for the perfect fit, but I can shoot it. The Ruger Number 1 in the same caliber, weighing just a few ounces less with a scope, just beats me up, and will be going down the road shortly. Again, gun fit.

Then over the limit: .500 Jeffery on a CZ 550. I fired exactly 2 shots with factory Kynoch ammo (535 gr bullet at 2400 fps). Just as another poster said, the new owner got the rest of the box of factory loads. I even downloaded it to .500 NE ballistics. After 3 or 4 shoots, my accuracy went downhill. Sold it to a member here , who could handle it, and killed a buff, just a few yards off the muzzle.

The moral of these stories are: Try before you buy. The fit and handling of the rifle is extremely important. Find your recoil limit and stay there, just spend more time and effort practicing. Read everything you can and practice recoil mitigation techniques.

All this said, I still want a .500 NE Double, made to fit me.

Well said also.
Krish

 

[B0MBOY]

Option 4: go big or go home.
You already have the sensible 375-416. The only reason to go bigger is for the sake of going bigger. With sensibility and utility both out the window, search your heart. Say you get a 470, once you master it, will you want a bigger caliber? A 500 or 600 nitro? Or will you be satisfied? That’s the real question.

 

[Aussie_Hunter]

My .458 Lott is pushing a 500 gr bullet at 2,300 fps for 5,873 ft-lbs of energy. I don’t think that the 500 NE and .505 Gibbs qualify as a ‘notable increase’ over that.

Excatly.
And this is the point I was making about the 450 Rigby in an earlier comment.

 

[Shako Badhan]

I’ve owned bolt guns in 375 H&H and 416 Rigby and currently have a 458 Lott. I would highly recommend the Lott if you go with a bolt action, great caliber and you can use 458 Winchester in it as well. If you go with a double can’t go wrong with a 500 NE.

 

[Safari Dave]

Bolt - .458 Lott
Double - .470 NE

 

[Safari Dave]

Honestly, I think a .416 is as powerful a rifle as anyone legitimately "needs" for any animal, even as a stopping rifle.


Now, if you want to get into .50 BMG's, there are things they can do that no double on the planet can accomplish!